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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Quick Review BMS 1.2 beta!



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      12-01-2008, 04:54 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmmotornutz View Post
Nope I did not switch to a higher octane fuel, was running 100 octane before I went to the track and I didn't do any WOT runs prior to my first run.

Yes boost is boost and is different, but thank you for clarifying your general statement.
There could be multiple reasons for this and a single run is not conclusive. You need a controlled test to determine variances; and not a single instances either. But I will reiterate my previous statement; show me DME values which takes time to adapt.

In your scenario, either the map had serious retard occuring in it or something else happened. This should be up for a different discussion though and not in this thread. There will be significant dicussions in this arena soon though and comparisons to products, previous statements and actual occurances.
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      12-01-2008, 05:04 PM   #68
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OMG I CANT WAIT!
2 more weeks.
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      12-01-2008, 05:07 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssabripo View Post
have you had a chance to run lagfix on map5 only? I'm trying to get some reports back on the lagfix map on the standard 1.1 map, and see how it does. No intakes or DP's here.
Not yet... my 1.2 chip hasn't gotten here yet I should have it in the next day or 2.

I will note the differences i experience from the standard 1.1 map vs. 1.1 w/ lagfix 2.0, and report back.
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      12-01-2008, 05:08 PM   #70
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OMG I CANT WAIT!
2 more weeks.
+1 I just love the map switching feature.
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      12-01-2008, 05:18 PM   #71
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Good Review thanks for the info !!!!
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      12-02-2008, 08:30 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by nj323ci View Post
Not yet... my 1.2 chip hasn't gotten here yet I should have it in the next day or 2.

I will note the differences i experience from the standard 1.1 map vs. 1.1 w/ lagfix 2.0, and report back.
you sir, are a gentleman, and a scholar!
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      12-02-2008, 09:03 AM   #73
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Quote:
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But I will reiterate my previous statement; show me DME values which takes time to adapt.
I know you and Shiv have stated this repeatedly, but why is it that the car seems stronger the next day or two after making a change? Inaccurate butt dynos again? Are people imagining things when they say that they don't feel much difference at first, and then the next day, DSC warnings are flashing in 2nd gear, etc, that did occur previous to the tune change? So if it isn't these "DME adapatation values" that you cite, then what could be the reason?
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      12-02-2008, 09:07 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrod182 View Post
I know you and Shiv have stated this repeatedly, but why is it that the car seems stronger the next day or two after making a change? Inaccurate butt dynos again? Are people imagining things when they say that they don't feel much difference at first, and then the next day, DSC warnings are flashing in 2nd gear, etc, that did occur previous to the tune change? So if it isn't these "DME adapatation values" that you cite, then what could be the reason?
Honestly, I say it is optimism. You know you are not going to feel 10 WHP, 20 WHP is a strech at this level (about 5%). You are not going to get that amount of change with any adaptation unless somethign is seriously wrong.

But anyway, this should all be very clear hopefully in just a couple of months.
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      12-02-2008, 09:12 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scalbert View Post
Honestly, I say it is optimism. You know you are not going to feel 10 WHP, 20 WHP is a strech at this level (about 5%). You are not going to get that amount of change with any adaptation unless somethign is seriously wrong.

But anyway, this should all be very clear hopefully in just a couple of months.

Sounds cool. Tell you what, if that track isn't a zoo with hour long lines this weekend, I will try and make the first run unadapted, and we will see if the traps increase on corresponding runs. This will then give us a pretty good correlation between trap speeds and HP increases.
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      12-02-2008, 09:14 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrod182 View Post
Sounds cool. Tell you what, if that track isn't a zoo with hour long lines this weekend, I will try and make the first run unadapted, and we will see if the traps increase on corresponding runs. This will then give us a pretty good correlation between trap speeds and HP increases.
Can't you bring a GT1 along and reset all adaptation channels so repeated tests can be performed?
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      12-02-2008, 12:24 PM   #77
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I know you and Shiv have stated this repeatedly, but why is it that the car seems stronger the next day or two after making a change?
No, in fact Shiv has been repeatedly telling that adaptation takes time with direct solenoid control:

Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
The results of adaptation is pretty noticeable with v2. Especially coming from v1.x. Especially in the 3000-5000rpm range where the factory ECU learns that it can be much more aggressive. This is because v1.x, like all single solenoid systems, had less precise boost control and was more prone to boost spiking in the midrange. Whereas v2, with direct drive dual solenoid control is much more controlled when it comes to midrange boost swings. This usually means that it's a good idea to give it a few days to adapt before taking it to the dyno. In fact, I've stopped dyno testing *right after* v2 installation. I've always found the results to be much better if the car has a few days of driving/adaptation time under its belt

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Specifically for V3 he says that the initial adaptation takes 50 miles (How much does the rest of the adaptation take?)
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Those who want to maximize power should only adjust upwards once initial adaptation is done (50 miles of driving).
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      12-02-2008, 01:09 PM   #78
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No, in fact Shiv has been repeatedly telling that adaptation takes time with direct solenoid control:



Specifically for V3 he says that the initial adaptation takes 50 miles (How much does the rest of the adaptation take?)
This is when going from stock to V3. Not when you just change maps which increase or decrease boost one PSI or so.
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      12-02-2008, 01:52 PM   #79
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This is when going from stock to V3. Not when you just change maps which increase or decrease boost one PSI or so.
I was thinking that we are talking about adaptation in general.

I use the optimal map all the time. I see the map switching useful only when changing to race gas map after filling in race gas. (Or changing auxiliary mods and selecting appropriate map, but that happens like once a year..). Anyways, its nice that the switcher is readily available if you happen to need it.
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      12-02-2008, 03:00 PM   #80
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This is when going from stock to V3. Not when you just change maps which increase or decrease boost one PSI or so.
I am still skeptical about no adaptation needed when switching low to high boost map. Yes the gain is instant due to the boost increase but optimum gain occurs after a few WOT runs.

When I dynoed my car, I was gaining 5 whp at a time after each run. This was of course on the same map not changing boost. Can you just imagine how much longer it would to take for optimization after a boost increase?
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      12-02-2008, 03:26 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmmotornutz View Post
I am still skeptical about no adaptation needed when switching low to high boost map. Yes the gain is instant due to the boost increase but optimum gain occurs after a few WOT runs.

When I dynoed my car, I was gaining 5 whp at a time after each run. This was of course on the same map not changing boost. Can you just imagine how much longer it would to take for optimization after a boost increase?
To determine this we first have to look at what may be adapting. The fundamentals are fuel, spark and air.

Air or boost control, this is an area where adaptation does take some time. But this is based on a change of the method of controlling boost and not the actual amount; for instance, going from stock to adding a tune. The reason for this is in the logic and adaptive algorithms the DME uses; call it auto-tuning. But once the control parameters are learned, changing maps from running 13 PSI to 14 PSI will not impact this adaptation. In addition, this is generally for the smoothness of the power and not the peak level.

Fuel is another area and one we can be thankful for does adapt nearly instantly. Due to the use of Wideband sensors, the STFT can be seen to adjust immediately. In fact, the earlier versions of most tunes relied upon this in the O2 sensor signal attenuation to get additional fuel in there. It is also how the newer detection programs in the DME attempt to determine there is a tune involved.

The last area is spark and involves a couple of adaptation channels; multiple for different loads. This is the caveat area that isn't 100% either way as you have to look at what is occurring. Think of it being similar to fuel trims, the DME also tests octane and bumps up timing to a certain extent. If knock events are measured, timing is pulled and then slowly added back in. But slowly is a relative term to the speed of which the DME is processing data. Any proper tune will retard timing to a level where the DME believes it is stock and running in the same range. Add some 100 octane and push it, the DME will respond by slowly bumping up timing but only to a certain point and should be realized in just a couple of pulls. There are limits to how much timing the DME will add in though. But run the same octane level and just bump the boost up 1 PSI, the tune should respond correctly to keep the DME in range it is comfortable with; roughly stock. That said, the JB1 and JB2 relied heavily on the DME's ability to adapt rather quickly, essentially immediately. If it didn't people would have regularly gotten check engine lights and/or audible knock. This is why Terry claimed he did not need CPS phase offsetting; the DME was quick enough to take care of it. This changed in the JB3 though as preventative measures were taken by inducing that offset.

Point being, significant changes may require some adaptation but something a few WOT pulls would take care off. Minor changes, like a small bump in boost, will not require any wait time.
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      12-02-2008, 03:45 PM   #82
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....

Point being, significant changes may require some adaptation but something a few WOT pulls would take care off. Minor changes, like a small bump in boost, will not require any wait time.

WOW, that was a novel of a response. All your points are affected by how much boost there is. Adaptation is not as instant, it takes a few WOT pulls for the DME to "learn". Plus low and high boost maps differ by more than 0.5 to 1 psi.
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      12-02-2008, 03:54 PM   #83
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Quote:
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WOW, that was a novel of a response. All your points are affected by how much boost there is. Adaptation is not as instant, it takes a few WOT pulls for the DME to "learn". Plus low and high boost maps differ by more than 0.5 to 1 psi.
When you say Adaptation, what are you referring to; what values specifically? To discuss this we need to be on the same field.

Actually only one point dealt with the boost; the first one. And the tune should account for the other changes so the DME doesn't have to. And call it 2 PSI, the tune should adjust fuel and spark accordingly so no wait time is needed in the DME.

One disconnect may be in the tunes we are referring to. Yes, in the JB1 and JB2 it would have some adaptation time regarding spark as the DME had to pull timing and then slowly add it back in. I assumed the JB3 was more proactive in this regard, similar to the PROcede. Perhaps I should reserve judgement on the JB3 until I get my hands on one.
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