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      01-01-2009, 02:47 PM   #23
YvesD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E92Fan View Post
To that end, I have followed Alpina's route - the front springs are of a slightly different rating, and I have changed the front rubber bump stops to items from the 335xi. The rear dampers and springs are completely stock.
Did you go for the BMW Performance springs or someone elses ?

Any lowering at all ?

Yves
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      01-01-2009, 03:38 PM   #24
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Great write-up Tone and your car now is a serious beast.

Looks like I'll need to get the credit card out this year to make sure the slow old M3 keeps up

Hope to catch up again soon

Paul +++
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      01-01-2009, 07:40 PM   #25
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Nice work Tony . Shud have just gona out and bought an M3, i know i wud

U need to go up against the DXB on the 1/4 mile now I dont stand your chances tho haha
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      01-02-2009, 02:00 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YvesD View Post
Did you go for the BMW Performance springs or someone elses ?

Any lowering at all ?

Yves
No, I've used standard BMW springs from the 335i SE, but chosen a different part number from the spring table that BMW use. Basically, each car has different sets of springs available to it, depending on what equipment and engine etc it has from factory. I have just chosen a slightly stiffer front spring (from a car which has a sunroof on top of everything else that my car does)

Ride height is exactly the same as before, which for me is perfect as it retains the ride comfort. I don't have any problems cornering, or with excessive body roll, as I have already firmed up the antiroll bars front and rear
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      01-02-2009, 02:04 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by G33 View Post
Nice work Tony . Shud have just gona out and bought an M3, i know i wud

U need to go up against the DXB on the 1/4 mile now I dont stand your chances tho haha

I don't want an M3 ?! As much as they're a nice car, I don't find them exciting enough to drive. And to be honest, not wanting to piss off any M3 owners, but my car is easier to drive quickly, and I think just as quick, if not quicker, in the real-world

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      01-02-2009, 04:44 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E92Fan View Post
I don't want an M3 ?! As much as they're a nice car, I don't find them exciting enough to drive.
Can you explain that one more....surley the M3 even pootling around is more exiciting than a standard 3 ?
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      01-02-2009, 04:46 AM   #29
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Thanks E92.

Presume One could go even stiffer still with the cabriolet springs for example ?

I have the opposite requirements to you in that I dont like the standard ride height look but dont want/need 'better' handling either ! Impossible conumdrum I think.

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      01-02-2009, 05:21 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E92Fan View Post
I don't want an M3 ?! As much as they're a nice car, I don't find them exciting enough to drive. And to be honest, not wanting to piss off any M3 owners, but my car is easier to drive quickly, and I think just as quick, if not quicker, in the real-world
You'll not piss any M3 owners off by expressing yourself honestly... it makes a change from a lot of the BS you get in forums. Having a car that is easier to drive faster than another is a perfectly good excuse... I wanted a car that is more of a challenge to drive and has a special feel to it, so the M3 fitted the bill. My mapped 535d was just as quick as my M3 in everyday driving, just not exciting enough.

+++
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      01-02-2009, 05:26 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E92Fan View Post
DMS have a range of baseline maps, on which they develop a custom map for each and every car. The reason being that each car has different characteristics, with some engines from the factory stronger than others (for whatever reason). You go to DMS, they download the standard ECU from your car as a backup, put the car on the rollers and get a first power output as standard. Then the basic map goes on, the car gets put up on the rollers again and you see what the difference is. Then it's a matter of tweaking where necessary to get the maximum reliable performance whilst giving better than factory drivability.

Effectively it's a mixture of off-the-shelf and bespoke...
Excellent write up and good figures for your car.

DMS don't really custom map each car. It sounds like your 335i might be one of the first they've done and that is why they spent so much time tweaking it and seeing what they are capable of producing. The more 335i's they do initially will help them produce a generic but safe map that can be uploaded onto any 335i. Customers who don't go to their premises (most of their business for remaps?) would not get this level of service but instead would get the best part of an hour or so from one of their Technicians who would download the existing software (copy) and then upload the new map, the car wold then be taken for a test drive and then handed back over to the customer.

It's good to hear that DMS have finally got a remapped 335i on the road and the initial figures look good.

Jules.
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      01-02-2009, 05:59 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E92Fan View Post
I firmly believe that the way to achieving the best handling out of our cars is by the fitment of an LSD for extra traction, a fine tuning of the subtleties of the suspension and running gear, and uprating the antiroll bars to reduce the roll rate and neutralise the handling bias away from on-limit understeer.
Have to agree that the roads in the US are a bit different than some of the roads over here in the UK. I was up in the Lake District on some B roads. I think it was the B5289 and the B5292? Adventurous roads to say the least. Not saying we don't have roads like that over in the US but they are a bit wider. And oddly enough E9x after March 2008 should have an E-LSD like the 1 series was released with in the US. http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...&highlight=lsd
http://www.bimmerfile.com/2008/12/24...rol/#more-1191
Have not had the opportunity to try it out yet.

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      01-02-2009, 07:11 AM   #33
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Good Review Tone !

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      01-02-2009, 09:50 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMP View Post
Can you explain that one more....surley the M3 even pootling around is more exiciting than a standard 3 ?
Being honest, my problem with the M3 is that it feels exactly like a regular 3 series when pootling around. And there's not enough vocal passion in the engine to really get the senses pulsing, until you start revving the nuts of the engine when then it suddenly comes alive. If you're driving it hard, it's rewarding and exciting. But a car like that, for me, needs to be exciting more of the time, and should make you feel alive even at low speeds. A 911 does that very well in comparison...

So, that's why I don't want an M3. My car, for me, does more things well more of the time. And now that it's been fettled, I have a feeling that it will be as quick as an M3, maybe even quicker, around the Nurburgring.... which isn't too shabby really!
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      01-02-2009, 09:54 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by YvesD View Post
Thanks E92.

Presume One could go even stiffer still with the cabriolet springs for example ?

I have the opposite requirements to you in that I dont like the standard ride height look but dont want/need 'better' handling either ! Impossible conumdrum I think.

Yves
You can go stiffer, by using different BMW parts. However, the problem then becomes spring/damper matching and having sufficient damping to cope with such stiff springs.

Your requirements then would seem to be for the car to look great (by being lower) but retaining all the standard comfort and ride.... not impossible, but really really hard. I think it will be much more than just a suspension replacement - you'll have to work on secondary damping and bushings too.... I think some people have had fairly good results with the H&R sport springs. Also, the standard AC Schnitzer fixed-rate road kit (as opposed to the fully adjustable setup) is supposed to be very very good, combining a slightly lower ride, with good handling and a surprisingly comfortable ride
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      01-02-2009, 09:58 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jude1 View Post
Excellent write up and good figures for your car.

DMS don't really custom map each car. It sounds like your 335i might be one of the first they've done and that is why they spent so much time tweaking it and seeing what they are capable of producing. The more 335i's they do initially will help them produce a generic but safe map that can be uploaded onto any 335i. Customers who don't go to their premises (most of their business for remaps?) would not get this level of service but instead would get the best part of an hour or so from one of their Technicians who would download the existing software (copy) and then upload the new map, the car wold then be taken for a test drive and then handed back over to the customer.

It's good to hear that DMS have finally got a remapped 335i on the road and the initial figures look good.

Jules.

You are quite correct about DMS in that they develop generic maps for uploading to the majority of cars. However if you do go down to the workshop then there is the very real possibility of having the car tweaked a little to get the best results. Certainly, my car was not the first that DMS have done - in fact they have done tens of cars prior to mine. The difference for me was that my car has had the engine fine-tuned, and also an upgraded intercooler installed
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      01-02-2009, 10:03 AM   #37
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Great write up. My car is very similar to your in mods (different brands in some cases) and I feel the same way about its day to day performance.

I also prefer my car to an M3 "drive wise" as these mods (especially the LSD) have filled in a lot of the gaps inherent to the 335 and the fuel economy makes it a car I can live with at $5 a gallon of gas.

The only downside is that the m3 is so drop dead gorgeous. That alone would tempt me to get one.
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      01-04-2009, 02:47 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E92Fan View Post
You can go stiffer, by using different BMW parts. However, the problem then becomes spring/damper matching and having sufficient damping to cope with such stiff springs.

... I think some people have had fairly good results with the H&R sport springs. Also, the standard AC Schnitzer fixed-rate road kit (as opposed to the fully adjustable setup) is supposed to be very very good, combining a slightly lower ride, with good handling and a surprisingly comfortable ride
I understand that firmer front springs will increase understeer. Why did you change the fronts and what effect does the different bump stops provide?

I keep reading reviews on the Alpina car set ups and how much better road testers prefer them to the M Sport package. I know Alpina do not use run flats and you sound very clued up on the subtle differences. Can you reveal more pls?

H&R and Eibach offer more progressive springs compared to the Msport and I've read two reviews of 335 owners that have paired up the H&R sport springs with Msport dampers and normal tyres and both said how the choppy ride over bumps at slow speeds disappeared. How do you think Eibach pro springs plus Koni FSD dampers would work together on our fabulous Queen's highway? In conjunction with H&R anti-roll bar kit of course

ACS suspensions kits - I've been told these are just rebadged Eibachs but twice as expensive??

Will you be looking to increase aero grip by adding the M3 lip spoiler or mechanical grip by increasing the width of the tyres in the future as you like driving the ring?
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      01-04-2009, 03:35 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ant Man View Post
How do you think Eibach pro springs plus Koni FSD dampers would work together on our fabulous Queen's highway?
The official line is that FSD's should not be used with lowering springs, the 'yellows' are for that although Koni are working on an 'FSD Pro-kit' hopfully for release sometime 2009 ? I was actually talking to them about this before we broke up for Christmas.

Having said that, pleanty of USA guys are using this combo to good effect.

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      01-05-2009, 03:31 AM   #40
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I understand that firmer front springs will increase understeer. Why did you change the fronts and what effect does the different bump stops provide?
The difference in spring stiffness is relatively small - the effect on increasing understeer on my car in particular is so small to be unnoticeable (at least to me - this is largely due to the uprated antiroll bars which have already altered the hanndling balance). The stiffer bump stops help prevent the front wheels deflecting too much under load - basically when the front springs were compressed and the wheels under load (in a fast corner on track for example) the standard bump stops would flex to a degree. This flex means that the front wheel geometry is not as true as it should be under load, leading to a sloppiness in hard cornering and a lack of precision. This was quite noticeable at Brands Hatch, when I found that sometimes a degree of extra mid-corner correction was needed. Now that the front suspension has been made to be a little more precise, especially true in the case of the tension struts and wishbones, I am expecting there to be much more sharpness and control during hard cornering. Certainly, the difference in high-speed straight-line stability has been improved, and driving the B-roads down in Surrey has proved a bit of revelation in terms of initial cornering bite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ant Man View Post
I keep reading reviews on the Alpina car set ups and how much better road testers prefer them to the M Sport package. I know Alpina do not use run flats and you sound very clued up on the subtle differences. Can you reveal more pls?
Alpina take a lot of time in fine-tuning damper/spring matching. Whilst BMW typically have 3 sets of dampers and springs to use across the whole E9x range, Alpina will go through the BMW parts bin and perhaps use a spring from a 5 series for example, or from a model not in the UK portfolio. They genrally have no restrictions on the mechanical parts they are allowed to use (except specific M parts like the diff). You will find that Alpina generally deliver a more cushioning ride, because they have spent time fine-tuning the suspension to one or two specific models only. The spec of antiroll bars differs as well, largely to compensate for the different suspension rate. The modification to the front bump stops on my car came from the Alpina engineers, who are using the 335xi stops on the B3 coupe. All this, coupled with the non-runflat tyres gives a more refined and sophisticated ride than the MSport variants.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ant Man View Post
H&R and Eibach offer more progressive springs compared to the Msport and I've read two reviews of 335 owners that have paired up the H&R sport springs with Msport dampers and normal tyres and both said how the choppy ride over bumps at slow speeds disappeared. How do you think Eibach pro springs plus Koni FSD dampers would work together on our fabulous Queen's highway? In conjunction with H&R anti-roll bar kit of course

ACS suspensions kits - I've been told these are just rebadged Eibachs but twice as expensive??
To be honest, I can't really comment on how the FSD dampers would work as I have only ever tried one car with them on, and that was for only ten minutes. Certainly I wasn't blown away by the change, but I didn't have long enough to form a good opinion. In addition, the car that it was installed on had a few geometry issues and the like, so that would have masked a fair bit of any perceived change.

My problem with using H&Rs or Eibachs with FSD dampers (or any other cobbled-together variation) is that inherently those two products are not matched together for the application of your car. BMW specify three different spring rates and dampers, depending on the level of specification of the car in question. Koni provide ONE FSD damper specification to cover ALL 335i (and possibly other models too). That Koni damper then hasn't even been matched to a dedicated per model spring, much less those generic springs from Eibach or H&R. How can you expect to get the correct spring/damping specification??

This is why I suggest going to someone like AC Schnitzer. Yes, they use Eibach springs and Bilstein dampers, and rebadge them as ACS, but ACS will have spent time refining the suspension setup and specifying specific damper requirements and spring rates from the supplying companies. Granted, that spring/damper combination will be designed for all variations of the 335i, but at least they will have been matched. You can go to Eibach and buy springs, you can go to Bilstein and buy dampers, but I guarantee you they won't be the same spring or damping rate as a set specially made up for ACS or one of the other respected tuners.

However, unless you specifically want to lower your car for a more aggressive look, I don't understand why people feel the need to change suspension on their daily road car. Granted, if you want your car to be track-focussed, then a suspension change to a full racing coilover setup would be the answer. If you want the car to handle better, there are other ways, and in my opinion better ways, to refine the car's handling balance and to increase traction other than changing over the suspension. If you are after a more cossetting ride, ditch the runflats and go to normal tyres. And if then you still want a more cossetting ride, sell your car and buy a Lexus, or something like that, because BMWs aren't designed with a cossetting ride in mind! Not even Alpinas are... the emphasis is on sporting, and unfortunately sporting does tend to mean a firmer ride!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ant Man View Post
Will you be looking to increase aero grip by adding the M3 lip spoiler or mechanical grip by increasing the width of the tyres in the future as you like driving the ring?
I will be adding the M3 lip spoiler in the very near future, but first I need to find a front lip that not only works, but also looks good. The problem with the standard car is that at high-speeds, and I'm talking 150mph+, there is a considerable amount of front-end lift which hinders directional stability. It's not uncontrollable at that speed by any means, but it isn't as tied down as it should be. Having driven an Alpina at those speeds, the difference in aero grip is considerable. My only issue is that the front lip from Alpina looks a little bit like a cliff-face - not the most aesthetically pleasing to me... not ugly, but not beautiful..!

I've already increased the tyre contact patch, to 235/265 front/rear, but the difference over standard is minimal. I have increased mechanical grip through the suspension refinement, uprated rollbars, and of course the LSD on the rear axle. Given that my car is actually a road car first and foremost, and not a dedicated 'Ring car, I think it is now pretty much the perfect balance of handling and comfort for me.

Last edited by E92Fan; 01-05-2009 at 03:49 AM.
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      04-21-2009, 09:55 AM   #41
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Hi E92 Fan,

I've got a 135i and have had it fairly extensively modded through Birds using the same thinking as you ie handling first, then power. So I've got a Quaife diff, Hartge adjustable suspension, Hartge anti-roll bars etc.

I'm now thinking about increasing power and I suppose my options are the Dinan kit that Birds can supply, the new BMW engine tuning kit shortly to be released, or the DMS reflash.

I think we can discount the BMW stuff as it only adds about 20bhp and no doubt will be very expensive, although it does include additional cooling.

I presume the DMS remap and the Dinan remap will be similar. I do know that Dinan are more expensive but they offer a full BMW-matching warranty. However, I don't feel that confident of having a supplier based in the US if I encounter any problems.

I suppose that leaves DMS. Now that you've had it for a while I wonder if you could let me have the benefit of your advice/guidance. Do you feel the fact that the BMW kit includes additional cooling means that any tuned car should be looking at this issue for reliability? Were you at all concerned about your warranty (I still have 2.5 years to run).

Any advice gratefully received.

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      04-21-2009, 02:57 PM   #42
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Fazerboy,

The fact you've fitted suspension etc surely means your warranty is up the spout already?

They'll blame any problems on the suspension, even failed electronics 'due to excessive vibration'
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      04-21-2009, 03:51 PM   #43
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great write up by Tony! he strikes again!!!
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      04-21-2009, 04:27 PM   #44
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Fazerboy,

The fact you've fitted suspension etc surely means your warranty is up the spout already?

They'll blame any problems on the suspension, even failed electronics 'due to excessive vibration'
Nah, I don't think so. They will void the warranty on any failure of a part related to the modification - but modifying the suspension won't void the engine or drivetrain warranty.

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