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      02-04-2009, 03:35 PM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregA View Post
That's true.

But the design was set by the avant-garde design strategy - which was set sometimes in mid 90s. Prepared & developed by many people from other departments as well (finance, marketing, finance, production, R&D etc).

And every design is based on guidelines set by marketing & engineering department - they create a basic frame for the design. Chassis & body dimensions etc. - all determined. Designers get the body already developed - they just have to "dress" it. So, the bulky E65 7er was bulky due engineers, not designers etc.

Yes, it's true Bangle oversaw, tutored & guided design teams in the process. But in the end it was the Board of Director who picked from the various design proposal - in every stage. Up until the very final design proposal. And Bangle was the link between designers & top managers from the Board: he was told what to do, what to change, what the Board expects etc. And they did that. Of course he advocated the proposals - but that was his job.

But definitely Bangle believed strongly in sharp avant-garde design language for BMW. And so did the Board.

Often Bangle is given wrong credits. Either too many, or too little. Usually media get it completely wrong ... mixing all up.

sounds nice
but in the time he was head of design
they made the worst looking BMW's in recent history (since the E30 days)
and this is a widespread view by many consumers and his peers
and most car websites/magazines
yes BMW sold more cars
but then again their cars were also above and beyond the competition
so i don't think the increase in sales was simply to having a huge butt (bangle butt) or the flame surfacing.

i love my M3
it gives me 10 times more enjoyment than my Audi A5 that i only owned for 6 months ever did
but based on looks alone, the M3 loses bigtime
i'm not saying its ugly, far from it
but if i gave the M3 7/10 the Audi would easily score a 9 for looks
and i got far more comments on the Audi's looks than the M3's
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      02-04-2009, 03:43 PM   #134
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Is that good news or bad news? I personally never cared too much for the 5,6 or 7 series. Did he do the 1 and the 3 series also? Those I like
I'll agree with you on the 5, and to some degree the 7. The 5 was very reserved and not very eye catching, except maybe the 550i. I think even the M5 could've used some more agressive styling to tell the truth. The 3's I was very fond of, especially the new M3. The 6 is a different story....LOVE em. But the M6 needed a few tweakings.
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      02-04-2009, 03:45 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
i love my M3
it gives me 10 times more enjoyment than my Audi A5 that i only owned for 6 months ever did
but based on looks alone, the M3 loses bigtime
i'm not saying its ugly, far from it
but if i gave the M3 7/10 the Audi would easily score a 9 for looks
and i got far more comments on the Audi's looks than the M3's
Those A5's are pretty good looking cars....I've heard they don't handle well, but they'll turn a few heads for sure...haven't had the chance to see one in person yet though....but I guess I shouldn't expect to since i'm out here at college in Manhattan, KS....not exactly a German car hot bed.
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      02-04-2009, 03:53 PM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
sounds nice
but in the time he was head of design
they made the worst looking BMW's in recent history (since the E30 days)
and this is a widespread view by many consumers and his peers
and most car websites/magazines
yes BMW sold more cars
but then again their cars were also above and beyond the competition
so i don't think the increase in sales was simply to having a huge butt (bangle butt) or the flame surfacing.
I'll say what I said over at 1addicts-

what's so funny is that many of us don't think the designs that came under Bangle's reign are all that attractive, and some are just plain ugly, but the japanese makers just can't stop copying them- I find especially funny the transition the big lexus took a couple years ago when it clearly moved from copying the S class to copying the 7, showing the changing of the guard at the luxury flagship level, ie the 7 is now top dog. But then again the new S came out, so we'll have to see who lexus copies this fall, hahaha
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      02-04-2009, 04:43 PM   #137
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It takes more than one man to design the styling of a car...that's what you have to realize and that's what I was talking about. I was not talking about engineering at all. That's another subject.

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He was the head of styling, not engineering, I think people realize the distinction.
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      02-04-2009, 04:56 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
sounds nice
but in the time he was head of design
they made the worst looking BMW's in recent history (since the E30 days)
and this is a widespread view by many consumers and his peers
and most car websites/magazines
yes BMW sold more cars
but then again their cars were also above and beyond the competition
so i don't think the increase in sales was simply to having a huge butt (bangle butt) or the flame surfacing.

i love my M3
it gives me 10 times more enjoyment than my Audi A5 that i only owned for 6 months ever did
but based on looks alone, the M3 loses bigtime
i'm not saying its ugly, far from it
but if i gave the M3 7/10 the Audi would easily score a 9 for looks
and i got far more comments on the Audi's looks than the M3's

99% of your post is presented from a subjective standpoint. You are entitled to your aesthetic opinion, but nothing subjective is definitive. Sales speak for themselves, and it's not because the competition was that far behind.
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      02-04-2009, 05:27 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
sounds nice
but in the time he was head of design
they made the worst looking BMW's in recent history (since the E30 days)
and this is a widespread view by many consumers and his peers
and most car websites/magazines
yes BMW sold more cars
but then again their cars were also above and beyond the competition
so i don't think the increase in sales was simply to having a huge butt (bangle butt) or the flame surfacing.

Bangle came to BMW in 1992 - directly to Design Director spot. So under his supervision many pre-avantgarde designs have been created:

E39 5-series, E38 7-series, E36/7 Z3, E53 X5, E46 3-series, E52 Z8

But those designs were based on different design strategy - and all of them chosen by the Board, not Bangle himself. So was the design strategy - a Board decision, not Deisign Dirictor's.

Same case for the avantgarde designs starting with E65 7-series & E85 Z4 - also supervised by Bangle, yet based on different design strategy, all designs picked by the Board. And the design strategy for the 21st BMW designs was decided sometimes in 1993. By the Board. Of course Bangle was the supporter of such strategy, and his task was to create design language for the avant-garde era. And in 1998 GINA Concept was created - a basis for all the upcoming BMW models (except E65 7er & E63 6er): featuring flame surfacing (= sharp creases & numerous convex/concave shifts in panels).

Yes - it's hard to say BMW became best selling premium brand in te world due to new designs. Especially since those designs weren't universally beautiful - yet more distinguished & different. I guess best sales number has more to do with great product line in general, superb brand image, and very attractive lease offers.

But all the controversy about Bangle & the new designs & iDrive etc have given BMW such exposure in the media than never before. Everybody was talking about BMW, Bangle, designs, iDrive, technology, pioneering etc. The interest in BMW was incredible, and the brand got a huge image boost - due huge secondary exposure & promotion. And BMW got a label of being design leader, and pioneer in technology. What an incredible image boost.

Avant-garde design strategy & hi-tech introduction were chosen due the dynamic image of BMW: powerful, dynamic, bold. And such attributes need bold & sharp modern design, and some great tech innovations - to make the brand utterly modern. Since that fits the brand best.

Sure some designs were executed a bit clumsily, and tech wasn't as reliable as it should had be - but you should know eg. the most radical tech & designs were developed during the Rover fiasco - when BMW AG had huge financial problems as well, not to mention all resources were focused on Rover at that time. A huge mistake!

But despite some imperfections BMW's risky payed off. And during the time tech & design matured - becoming less clumsy, and more reliable.

OK ... now Bangle is gone, but the avant-garde design strategy stays. Ver 2.0. Refined - as seen on F01 7er, and E89 Z4. Flame surfacing still there, shark-fin antenna still there, eyebrows still there, modern shapes still there etc. No radical change at all. And there won't be any in the future as well.

Direction is set, and under execution. With or without Bangle. It doesn't really matter. But - as said in press release: he will stay closely tied with BMW AG in the future as well - I guess as a consultant on future design trends & visions.
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      02-04-2009, 06:23 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregA View Post
Bangle came to BMW in 1992 - directly to Design Director spot. So under his supervision many pre-avantgarde designs have been created:

E39 5-series, E38 7-series, E36/7 Z3, E53 X5, E46 3-series, E52 Z8

But those designs were based on different design strategy - and all of them chosen by the Board, not Bangle himself. So was the design strategy - a Board decision, not Deisign Dirictor's.

Same case for the avantgarde designs starting with E65 7-series & E85 Z4 - also supervised by Bangle, yet based on different design strategy, all designs picked by the Board. And the design strategy for the 21st BMW designs was decided sometimes in 1993. By the Board. Of course Bangle was the supporter of such strategy, and his task was to create design language for the avant-garde era. And in 1998 GINA Concept was created - a basis for all the upcoming BMW models (except E65 7er & E63 6er): featuring flame surfacing (= sharp creases & numerous convex/concave shifts in panels).

Yes - it's hard to say BMW became best selling premium brand in te world due to new designs. Especially since those designs weren't universally beautiful - yet more distinguished & different. I guess best sales number has more to do with great product line in general, superb brand image, and very attractive lease offers.

But all the controversy about Bangle & the new designs & iDrive etc have given BMW such exposure in the media than never before. Everybody was talking about BMW, Bangle, designs, iDrive, technology, pioneering etc. The interest in BMW was incredible, and the brand got a huge image boost - due huge secondary exposure & promotion. And BMW got a label of being design leader, and pioneer in technology. What an incredible image boost.

Avant-garde design strategy & hi-tech introduction were chosen due the dynamic image of BMW: powerful, dynamic, bold. And such attributes need bold & sharp modern design, and some great tech innovations - to make the brand utterly modern. Since that fits the brand best.

Sure some designs were executed a bit clumsily, and tech wasn't as reliable as it should had be - but you should know eg. the most radical tech & designs were developed during the Rover fiasco - when BMW AG had huge financial problems as well, not to mention all resources were focused on Rover at that time. A huge mistake!

But despite some imperfections BMW's risky payed off. And during the time tech & design matured - becoming less clumsy, and more reliable.

OK ... now Bangle is gone, but the avant-garde design strategy stays. Ver 2.0. Refined - as seen on F01 7er, and E89 Z4. Flame surfacing still there, shark-fin antenna still there, eyebrows still there, modern shapes still there etc. No radical change at all. And there won't be any in the future as well.

Direction is set, and under execution. With or without Bangle. It doesn't really matter. But - as said in press release: he will stay closely tied with BMW AG in the future as well - I guess as a consultant on future design trends & visions.

Great information.
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      02-05-2009, 12:26 AM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregA View Post
Bangle came to BMW in 1992 - directly to Design Director spot. So under his supervision many pre-avantgarde designs have been created:

E39 5-series, E38 7-series, E36/7 Z3, E53 X5, E46 3-series, E52 Z8

But those designs were based on different design strategy - and all of them chosen by the Board, not Bangle himself. So was the design strategy - a Board decision, not Deisign Dirictor's.

Same case for the avantgarde designs starting with E65 7-series & E85 Z4 - also supervised by Bangle, yet based on different design strategy, all designs picked by the Board. And the design strategy for the 21st BMW designs was decided sometimes in 1993. By the Board. Of course Bangle was the supporter of such strategy, and his task was to create design language for the avant-garde era. And in 1998 GINA Concept was created - a basis for all the upcoming BMW models (except E65 7er & E63 6er): featuring flame surfacing (= sharp creases & numerous convex/concave shifts in panels).

Yes - it's hard to say BMW became best selling premium brand in te world due to new designs. Especially since those designs weren't universally beautiful - yet more distinguished & different. I guess best sales number has more to do with great product line in general, superb brand image, and very attractive lease offers.

But all the controversy about Bangle & the new designs & iDrive etc have given BMW such exposure in the media than never before. Everybody was talking about BMW, Bangle, designs, iDrive, technology, pioneering etc. The interest in BMW was incredible, and the brand got a huge image boost - due huge secondary exposure & promotion. And BMW got a label of being design leader, and pioneer in technology. What an incredible image boost.

Avant-garde design strategy & hi-tech introduction were chosen due the dynamic image of BMW: powerful, dynamic, bold. And such attributes need bold & sharp modern design, and some great tech innovations - to make the brand utterly modern. Since that fits the brand best.

Sure some designs were executed a bit clumsily, and tech wasn't as reliable as it should had be - but you should know eg. the most radical tech & designs were developed during the Rover fiasco - when BMW AG had huge financial problems as well, not to mention all resources were focused on Rover at that time. A huge mistake!

But despite some imperfections BMW's risky payed off. And during the time tech & design matured - becoming less clumsy, and more reliable.

OK ... now Bangle is gone, but the avant-garde design strategy stays. Ver 2.0. Refined - as seen on F01 7er, and E89 Z4. Flame surfacing still there, shark-fin antenna still there, eyebrows still there, modern shapes still there etc. No radical change at all. And there won't be any in the future as well.

Direction is set, and under execution. With or without Bangle. It doesn't really matter. But - as said in press release: he will stay closely tied with BMW AG in the future as well - I guess as a consultant on future design trends & visions.
Good summation. Thanks for writing that.
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Originally Posted by Laszlo View Post
I'm sure this tool was "forced" out - BMW waited to fulfill his contract. Hookwink is the guy behind BMWs latest and most amazing designs - new Z4 for instance.

Buh bye Bangle.
You're a cool guy Lazlo. I can tell from all of your posts. I just don't think I can ever see your opinion on this specific subject as being one without ignorance. No offense or anything, I just think you take it too far with this. Besides, look at what was posted. Bangle oversees design. He never penned any of the designs himself.
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      02-05-2009, 01:01 AM   #142
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Actually, Hooydonk's direct design contributions to BMW include the Z09 concept and its direct production descendants, the E65 7 series and the E63 6 series. If anything Hooydonk is more resposible for the Bangle Butt than Bangle was, as he was the designer. Bangle, as head of BMW design when the E65 was released, was the point man and the public face of the new design, even though he didn't design it.

Interestingly, Hooydonk's design vocabulary has fallen out of favor, and it is Anders Warming's design laqnguage which now permeates the BMW lineup. His seminal design of the GINA concept introduced the Flame Surfacing concept which now drives BMW exterior design. With Hooydonk's elevation to Design Director of BMW Group, we may also see Warming move from Head of Exterior Design for BMW to take Hooydonk's previous position as Design Director for BMW.
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      02-05-2009, 03:21 AM   #143
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e90 designer

The Designer of the exterior of the E90 is Joji Nagashima
He also designed the E39 5 Series exterior.
-From an old e90 post
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      02-05-2009, 09:32 AM   #144
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so did chris design the upcoming LCI e92 before he left?

or will this be the new guys job?
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      02-05-2009, 01:37 PM   #145
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What's funny is that people say that Lexus, Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Mercedes, and so on "copied" the design language of the 5, 6, and 7. That's certainly true at some level, but few of these copies went so far as to incorporate the hideous "cut lines", droopy eyelids, and other details that these BMWs were unfortunately saddled with. I'm no real fan of the Camry, but at least it has a trunk that appears to be a part of the car. When I see a 5, 6, or 7 in anything but a dark color the horrible cut lines on the trunk really put me off, making me think of cars that were poorly assembled, or which have been in an accident!

Thankfully the days of these ridiculous designs appear to be over, as the new 7 is nice looking in an e92 kind of way, distancing itself nicely from the past mistakes. I'm looking forward to the new 5 series and more, and hope that the Bangle-era 5, 6, and 7 designs become distant bad memories.
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      02-05-2009, 01:43 PM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmer Loyalist View Post

You're a cool guy Lazlo. I can tell from all of your posts. I just don't think I can ever see your opinion on this specific subject as being one without ignorance. No offense or anything, I just think you take it too far with this. Besides, look at what was posted. Bangle oversees design. He never penned any of the designs himself.
Exactly!
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      02-05-2009, 04:16 PM   #147
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good news IMO, was never a fan of his 7 series or 5 series. i actually loved the 5 series until his re-design and vowed to never get one b/c of the bangle butt
I agree with you on the 5 series...nice car, but i think its fugly....incredibly LoL. unique look tho....
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      02-05-2009, 06:32 PM   #148
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so the latest news is that Bangle left BMW because of indifference of opinion over a project with BMW CEO.
(retrieved that info from German Car fans)
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      02-07-2009, 04:44 PM   #149
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Face it, the E92/93's are hot and were even copied by Audi - they just added LEDs. Oooooooooooooo

Now that most everyone has "thrown a shoe" at Chris Bangle, isn't it time to go after the marketing department? Why the hell are they letting Audi 1 UP BMW right now?

Last time I checked, Audi's were glorified VWs.

I guess The Transporter, Iron Man, and other movies make people forget that fact.
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      02-08-2009, 01:14 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by torzeck View Post
The Designer of the exterior of the E90 is Joji Nagashima
He also designed the E39 5 Series exterior.
-From an old e90 post

yes

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=433
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      02-10-2009, 05:20 PM   #151
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no wonder why BMW's look more Japanese than German these days..

hopefully van hooydick and the rest of those trendy fools will leave and bmw will go back to the e46 and prior designs..
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      02-14-2009, 02:13 PM   #152
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^^^ This is just an asinine statement.

Bangle started at BMW in 1992. Did BMWs start looking American back then?

Hooydonk started at BMW in the late 90s. Is that when BMWs started looking Dutch?

BTW, Nagashima designed the E36.
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