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      09-06-2005, 03:43 PM   #23
carl_d
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichReg
I can't see that being a problem. The new MBenz engines already have direct injection & they don't seem to be having any trouble. The new V6 is here now & the new V8 is only months away.
It depens on what the engine block is made from. I'm not familer with the new MB engines but I bet they are not magnzium based alloy? It is also possible for BMW to insert cyliner liners to overcome the Sulpher issue but this adds weight and cost. The US need low-sulpher gas to suite BMW current engine plans and rebuilt refineries may well provide this.
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      09-06-2005, 03:55 PM   #24
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Great info, thanks.

If it's true, I am having trouble figuring out why the E46 M3 could generate 333 hp from a normally aspirated engine, but BMW opted to use twin turbochargers to get 330 hp from the new engine. Perhaps the design of the new engine did not allow the greater displacement (was 3.2 liters in the E46 M3) that the M3 had.

Seems a bit odd for BMW to be going back to turbo gasoline engines, but maybe it had to do with driveability and engine character. Then again, normally aspirated engines tend to be more "civilized" than turbocharged ones, but there are exceptions.

I'm excited either way. More choices!! And who wouldn't want 75 more horsepower from the same basic E90 platform? I guess we will have to wait and see what the cost is. I also assume fuel economy will go way down too.
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      09-06-2005, 08:36 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carl_d
It depens on what the engine block is made from. I'm not familer with the new MB engines but I bet they are not magnzium based alloy? It is also possible for BMW to insert cyliner liners to overcome the Sulpher issue but this adds weight and cost. The US need low-sulpher gas to suite BMW current engine plans and rebuilt refineries may well provide this.
The new MB block(s) are made primarily of some kind of silicon hybrid alloy. I know that there IS magnesium in their engine as well, though I don't believe its as intensive as BMW's....some of MB's manifolds are magnesium or something like that.
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      09-06-2005, 09:08 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CC 330i
Great info, thanks.

If it's true, I am having trouble figuring out why the E46 M3 could generate 333 hp from a normally aspirated engine, but BMW opted to use twin turbochargers to get 330 hp from the new engine. Perhaps the design of the new engine did not allow the greater displacement (was 3.2 liters in the E46 M3) that the M3 had.
The answer to this question is quite easy: cost. The E46 M3 engine block is very expensive to produce, wheras the current 3.0l engine is much cheaper to produce. This is due in part to the tolerances that each engine must undergo; as you can imagine it is a lot harder to get 333hp out of 3.2l than 250hp out of 3.0! The result of this added difficulty was an engine that was much costlier to produce (hence the much higher price of the M3) and much less reliable (hence the higher repair bills and the stories of people blowing their M3 engines left, right and centre... particularly with first model year cars).

On the other hand, it is not extremely expensive to take the same mass-produced engine and tweak it with twin turbos. As any tuner will tell you, turbo-charging is one of the cheaper ways to get more power from a block! As a bonus, the 3.0l block is over-engineered so that it can easily withstand more power (since it needs to be more reliable, as BMW wants to keep warantee claims down), which means that not even many parts need to be changed on the engine. Therefore for the price of a 325/330 block + turbochargers, BMW can make a heck of a lot of profit by charging $10k more for the 335!

That's pretty much the biggest reason as to why they would chose to turbo-charge the 3.0l block for a 335. It makes great sense from a commercial point of view.
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      09-06-2005, 11:09 PM   #27
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10k more for the 335i? That would have to include a very long list of M-sport extras and the 7-speed SMG or DSP. I was thinking more along the lines of 6k over the 330i. Do we have any good comparisons to make from the E60 in euro, e.g., 535turbo diesel vs. non turbo? Maybe this would make for a fun poll...
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      09-06-2005, 11:58 PM   #28
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I HIGHLY doubt it will be a 10k price difference between the 330 and 335, and more than likely chances are, we will get this car - there's no way in 'hades' that BMW will let Volvo produce an inline six w/ a SINGLE turbo putting out 350 to top it...
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      09-07-2005, 03:05 AM   #29
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Most (technologically advanced) car manufacturers are moving more towards forced induction. It allows for downsizing the displacement and thereby reducing fuel consumption on partial load. Gasoline is getting more and more expensive around the world and environmental preservation is important to many. So despite the growing hunger for more saftey, power and conevnience, the manufacturers are looking for ways to keep the power but bring down the consumption.
Valvetronic, direct injection, turbos, superchargers etc. All to get power from smaller displacement engines that use less fuel (unless of course you use all that power all the time (you canīt escape the laws of physics)

The M3 NA 3.2 i-6 engine with 330hp is simply too frugal and to expensive for mass production.

In that direction, thereīs a very interesting new I-4 engine at Volkswagen
Itīs a 1.4 Liter direct injection gasoline engine with a supercharger AND a turbo that delivers 170 hp and lots of torque. It behaves like a 2.3 Liter NA engine while using almost 20% less fuel.
Itīs just going on sale in Germany in the Golf GT replacing a 2.0Liter Turbo

Expect to see more complex gasoline engines with less displacement but more power in the future.
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      09-07-2005, 03:29 AM   #30
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I just don't understand where the markets for these cars are. The 3 series is reaching into 5 series, Infiniti M, and Lexus GS territory with a $50K+ 335i. Is this really going to be a wise buying decision? Where is the value? How come Lexus gets away with the same or similar power at $10K less than BMW? That's a huge divide, probably more than I could tolerate. My 330i was already pushing the threshold of how much I think a car like it should cost.

*shrug* I guess time will tell. I'm just curious how many of you would put down $55K for a loaded 335i that will basically keep up with that IS350 in a straight line at nearly $15K less.
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      09-07-2005, 04:02 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Armen52
I just don't understand where the markets for these cars are. The 3 series is reaching into 5 series, Infiniti M, and Lexus GS territory with a $50K+ 335i. Is this really going to be a wise buying decision? Where is the value? How come Lexus gets away with the same or similar power at $10K less than BMW? That's a huge divide, probably more than I could tolerate. My 330i was already pushing the threshold of how much I think a car like it should cost.

*shrug* I guess time will tell. I'm just curious how many of you would put down $55K for a loaded 335i that will basically keep up with that IS350 in a straight line at nearly $15K less.
The build and equipment quality in a lexus is shocking
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      09-07-2005, 06:08 AM   #32
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The twin turboed 535d is approximately $7K more than the 530d, but that includes several thousands of options (automatic transmission, larger wheels and brakes, e. seats, etc)

I'd be surprised to see the 335i cost over $10K more. Especially since it's not a different engine like a 545 is compared to a 530.
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      09-07-2005, 10:28 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by E90Fleet
The build and equipment quality in a lexus is shocking
Shockingly good or bad? I'm not being facetious.
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      09-07-2005, 10:50 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Abulia
The answer to this question is quite easy: cost. The E46 M3 engine block is very expensive to produce, wheras the current 3.0l engine is much cheaper to produce. This is due in part to the tolerances that each engine must undergo; as you can imagine it is a lot harder to get 333hp out of 3.2l than 250hp out of 3.0! The result of this added difficulty was an engine that was much costlier to produce (hence the much higher price of the M3) and much less reliable (hence the higher repair bills and the stories of people blowing their M3 engines left, right and centre... particularly with first model year cars).

On the other hand, it is not extremely expensive to take the same mass-produced engine and tweak it with twin turbos. As any tuner will tell you, turbo-charging is one of the cheaper ways to get more power from a block! As a bonus, the 3.0l block is over-engineered so that it can easily withstand more power (since it needs to be more reliable, as BMW wants to keep warantee claims down), which means that not even many parts need to be changed on the engine. Therefore for the price of a 325/330 block + turbochargers, BMW can make a heck of a lot of profit by charging $10k more for the 335!

That's pretty much the biggest reason as to why they would chose to turbo-charge the 3.0l block for a 335. It makes great sense from a commercial point of view.
I guess I understand all the economics of the decision to go with turbocharging, but I guess all of us BMW drivers will have to accept that turbos are OK after all. I'm all for it if its a drivable, reliable engine. I wish they would get started with direct injection like Audi is doing with the FSI in the RS4. Audi took the 4.2 liter engine in the S4 from 340 normally aspirated horsepower to 425 horsepower (normally aspirated) mainly by utilizing FSI and a few other engine improvements. That's more of a jump than the 335i will be from the 330i.
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      09-07-2005, 11:01 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattldm
This sounds good but...

There would be no reason to introduce a turbo model with 330 Hp when they plan on releasing an M model with 400. This would not make marketing sense because the turbo 335 would steal sales from the M3.

Reason #2 - If you calculate the power output per liter of the R6 engine you get (255/3.0 = 85 Hp per L) At 85 Hp per liter BMW would be able to easily generate 295 HP from a 3.5L version of this engine. (3.5*85 = 297.5). This would make more sense, and would also follow similarly with BMW's marketing strategy in the US.

In the E46, the difference between the 330i and the M3 was 108 Hp. With the current E90 the difference looks to be about 150 plus or minus a few. So, with the introduction of a 3.5L, 295 or so Hp car, BMW would again put its top 3 series car within 100-110 Hp of the M3.

Of course this is just my opinion, but I cant see them sending a 330 HP car to the US. Maybe in the rest of the world, but I dont think it would fit in the US market.
I believe the 335 is still the 3.0 liter I6. Not 3.5 liters. They're just slapping on the turbos.
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      09-07-2005, 11:25 AM   #36
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The build and equipment quality in a lexus is shocking
I believe he means shockingly good.
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      09-07-2005, 11:28 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CC 330i
I guess I understand all the economics of the decision to go with turbocharging, but I guess all of us BMW drivers will have to accept that turbos are OK after all. I'm all for it if its a drivable, reliable engine. I wish they would get started with direct injection like Audi is doing with the FSI in the RS4. Audi took the 4.2 liter engine in the S4 from 340 normally aspirated horsepower to 425 horsepower (normally aspirated) mainly by utilizing FSI and a few other engine improvements. That's more of a jump than the 335i will be from the 330i.

RS4 is a V8 I think, and so has much more headroom for improvement than an I6.
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      09-07-2005, 12:24 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socom
RS4 is a V8 I think, and so has much more headroom for improvement than an I6.
That's true, and the 330i does have a 40 hp improvement already over the 325i (on the same size engine), so there probably isn't as much room to improve via normal aspiration from the 330i. The 335 will have about 115 hp more than the 325i.
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      09-07-2005, 02:40 PM   #39
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Pardon my excessive listing, but everytime I look at these strings on the 335i I find myself suppressing this primal urge to scream out "AAAHHH this car will be so great!" and feeling sheepish that doing so is an insult to those who have or are planning to get a 325 or 330, incredible cars in their own right. But dream we must! And hope that BMWNA gets it right in regard to the timing, and optioning, of this potentially fabulous car.
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      09-07-2005, 06:07 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stressdoc
Pardon my excessive listing, but everytime I look at these strings on the 335i I find myself suppressing this primal urge to scream out "AAAHHH this car will be so great!" and feeling sheepish that doing so is an insult to those who have or are planning to get a 325 or 330, incredible cars in their own right. But dream we must! And hope that BMWNA gets it right in regard to the timing, and optioning, of this potentially fabulous car.
Oh it will be fabulous alright! I think that once the car comes out and you guys go out for a drive you'll really appreciate the turbo charged engine concept, usable everday torque at very low RPM's, not to mention w/ the tech out there today turbo lag is almost, if not, a non issue. There's nothing like being able to get out of a sticky situation, say merging onto the freeway and the tool in front of you won't let you on, you can let your foot down gently, get up to about 2500 rpm, and he'll remember his place for next time, in, say about 2 seconds flat.
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      09-07-2005, 06:19 PM   #41
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my nephew is a lexus tech and every time i sit in one i think to myself "this car and its manufacturers are simply trying to ape BMW"...
as far as the market for this model, don't kid yourself. BMW has one of the most loyal customer bases on the globe. the success of a somewhat niche model such as a 335 is in no way measured on how well it sells in north america.
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Last edited by etherbored; 09-07-2005 at 06:20 PM. Reason: typo'd
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      09-07-2005, 06:23 PM   #42
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I remember first hearing of sequential turbos in the 80's and one of the big problems was a nasty dip and then spike in power as the small turbo was dropping off and the big turbo was taking over. If they overlapped the turbos too much there were other problems, and if the smaller turbo was too big you still had lag off idle. One of the solutions I rememeber reading about was making the operating range of the motor very similar to a diesel, max revs very low so that they could manage boost better.

I'm curious if the advances in engine management have overcome the problems? I like high revving motors. I'll be sorely disappointed if this thing ends up with a 5500rpm redline. Extra power or not I'd probably take a higher revving lower power NA motor instead. But that's just me.
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      09-07-2005, 06:28 PM   #43
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Well, VW and Audi engines with turbos are quite good. I was really impressed with the new A3, and with the twin turbo S4 (B5). It has recently been (in the last 20 years or so) BMWs stance that normal aspiration was "better", but I guess they are changing their minds now.
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      09-07-2005, 06:46 PM   #44
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well, BMW did win a Forumla 1 race in the 80's with a Turboed motor.
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