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      03-04-2009, 01:11 AM   #1
usc335
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PROcede Boost vs. RPM Curves

There have been a lot of questions on this forum regarding the boost pressure for the various PROcede maps. So, to answer those questions I did 4 “third gear” datalogs using the 2-19(2009) 6MT Doomsday maps:

Stage 0 (Default User Torque = 90)
Stage 1 (Default User Torque = 90)
Stage 1 (User Torque = 80)
Valet Mode (Stock) [done on a different day]

The only modification to the car, besides a PROcede, is a downpipe-back exhaust (stock air filter). The test conditions were 91 octane, Temp = 55 F (50 F for Valet Mode), Altitude = 200 ft.

(1) Here is the raw data from the PROcede datalogging software with the first 3 overlayed:

(2) Here is Boost vs. RPM for Stage 0 Only:

(3) Here is Boost vs. RPM for the first 3 overlayed:

(4) My boost pressure generalizations for Stage 0 are as follows (note: values adjusted 0.5 psi down to reflect a more true manifold pressure):
< 3000 RPM 9.0 – 10.0 psi
3000 – 4000 RPM 10.0 to 14.0 psi (Increase)
4000 – 4300 RPM 14.0 to 12.2 psi (Decrease Linearly)
**Boost is decreased due to valve timing phase shift at ~ 4200 RPM
4300 – 4900 RPM 12.2 psi (Constant)
4900 – 6100 RPM 12.2 to 13.7 psi (Increase)
6100 – 6500 RPM 13.7 to 11.7 psi (Decrease Linearly)
6500 – 7000 RPM Rapid Boost Taper

(5) Affects of UT Setting: Dropping the UT from 90 to 80 on Stage 1 has a significant impact on the boost pressure – much more than I thought it would have.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(6) Here is Boost vs. RPM for Valet Mode (Stock):


(7) Here is Boost vs. RPM for Valet Mode (Stock) and Stage 0 Overlayed:


(8) Here is Boost vs. RPM for Valet Mode (Stock) and Stage 0 Overlayed on a Dual Axis [to better illustrate the differences/similarities in the boost curves]:


(9) Here is Boost vs. RPM Boost Increase for Stage 0 Over Stock [with a Trendline]:


(10) Stage 0 vs. Stock Boost Curve Analysis: The stock boost curve is obviously not flat (constant) and tailored to conditions just like the procede. The boost increase over stock graph (item 9) clearly shows the procede is very deliberate in the boost increase curve as illustrated by the trendline.

I hope this helps people understand the PROcede boost curves, the differences between maps, and the impact of user torque settings.

Last edited by usc335; 03-08-2009 at 12:19 AM. Reason: Added Valet Mode Data (Items 6, 7, 8, 9, 10)
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      03-04-2009, 01:32 AM   #2
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Thanks you for very good information!
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      03-04-2009, 07:02 AM   #3
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Thanks!

That is very useful information.

How did you capture the individual boost data which was exported into the excel graphs?
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      03-04-2009, 10:22 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Ilma View Post
Thanks!

That is very useful information.

How did you capture the individual boost data which was exported into the excel graphs?
The procede datalog files are just ".csv" files (comma delimited text files) that can be opened in Excel and manipulated.
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      03-04-2009, 01:46 PM   #5
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Weird boost curve... Is that intentional?
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      03-04-2009, 01:47 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E82tt6 View Post
Weird boost curve... Is that intentional?
Yep. Results in a nice flat torque curve as exhibited in all the recent dyno result posted.

Shiv
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      03-04-2009, 01:50 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Yep. Results in a nice flat torque curve as exhibited in all the recent dyno result posted.

Shiv
So if someone was to run race gas, is it better to jump to a higher staged map or just adjust the user settings higher?
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      03-04-2009, 01:53 PM   #8
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So if someone was to run race gas, is it better to jump to a higher staged map or just adjust the user settings higher?
Raising UT will bump up boost at all engine speeds. Going up a stage will only raise boost above ~5000rpm. So it really depends on what you are looking for. Usually, we like to keep a self-imposed torque limit in place which means limiting boost to ~13psi in the low end. Or else we would see the 400+lbft peak torque situation that isn't really necessary.

Shiv
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      03-04-2009, 01:59 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Raising UT will bump up boost at all engine speeds. Going up a stage will only raise boost above ~5000rpm. So it really depends on what you are looking for. Usually, we like to keep a self-imposed torque limit in place which means limiting boost to ~13psi in the low end. Or else we would see the 400+lbft peak torque situation that isn't really necessary.

Shiv

Thanks, with that little bit of text it makes the graphs much clearer to me.

Thanks again
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      03-04-2009, 02:19 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E82tt6 View Post
Weird boost curve... Is that intentional?
Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Yep. Results in a nice flat torque curve as exhibited in all the recent dyno result posted.

Shiv
That looks very much like the stock boost curve has been scaled. Same shape, higher numbers.

For comparison, here's a log of the cp-e full standalone boost control on their Standback tuner. The SB has full control of the wastegates.
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      03-04-2009, 02:24 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dadasracecar View Post
That looks very much like the stock boost curve has been scaled. Same shape, higher numbers.

For comparison, here's a log of the cp-e full standalone boost control on their Standback tuner. The SB has full control of the wastegates.
You do realize that the PROcede had full control over the wastegates too? But instead of trying to implement an engineering exercise, we decided to actually tune the engine properly. Targeting X boost pressure across the board is silly when one actually has the ability to map boost properly and have it complement the natural pumping efficiency of the engine.

If you want to discuss this or other things related to the Standback, start another thread and invite me to participate.

Shiv
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      03-04-2009, 02:30 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usc335 View Post
The procede datalog files are just ".csv" files (comma delimited text files) that can be opened in Excel and manipulated.
I tried searching for the .csv files under C:\Program Files\Procede\Pde_Prog_v3_1\data.....but their not showing.

That makes no sense because when I open the vishnu analysis program the data sets load from that same directory and are clearly visible to me.

I have my windows folder settings to display all hidden and system files, so I don't understand why the files don't show when I use the windows directory explorer.

?????

Please help!
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      03-04-2009, 02:39 PM   #13
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This is exactly what I've been hoping to see.

Thanks!!!
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      03-04-2009, 03:35 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
You do realize that the PROcede had full control over the wastegates too? But instead of trying to implement an engineering exercise, we decided to actually tune the engine properly. Targeting X boost pressure across the board is silly when one actually has the ability to map boost properly and have it complement the natural pumping efficiency of the engine.

If you want to discuss this or other things related to the Standback, start another thread and invite me to participate.

Shiv
Really? "natural pumping efficiency of the engine?"

So you're claiming the natural pumping efficiency of the n54 is complemented by spiking boost to over 16 psi for ~200 rpm, then dropping it to ~13.7 for another 500 rpm and then ramping slowly back to a choppy 15 psi before tapering back to 13 again. That's very interesting. How did you determine the "natural pumping efficiency of the engine?" I assume that's rpm based and documented somewhere. Amazing that you've come up with this while every other turbo application is "complemented" by a nice flat boost curve.
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      03-04-2009, 04:40 PM   #15
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I don't know what modern turbo engines you've seen lately. But they don't have flat boost curves. Neither does the stock n54. Yet somehow the torque curve looks smooth. In fancy talk, that's an example of employing a boost profile that complements the engines VE (fancy talk for pumping efficiency.). Good day.

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      03-04-2009, 04:44 PM   #16
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Quote:
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[...]
Amazing that you've come up with this while every other turbo application is "complemented" by a nice flat boost curve.
I can't believe that to be true.

Really, from the "Goodyear Blimp" perspective, the goal is to tune the engine, not the turbo. The turbo is more or less another knob you turn to help the engine make nice, flat torque over the rpm band. Sure, you want to keep the turbo close to it's efficiency range and you want to avoid spikes, but ultimately you're tailoring the boost curve to the engine's breathing needs, not to hold some flat setpoint.
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      03-04-2009, 04:51 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Raising UT will bump up boost at all engine speeds. Going up a stage will only raise boost above ~5000rpm. So it really depends on what you are looking for. Usually, we like to keep a self-imposed torque limit in place which means limiting boost to ~13psi in the low end. Or else we would see the 400+lbft peak torque situation that isn't really necessary.

Shiv
As I posted in the past, unless it's triggering a tuner code; why limit torque down low? Isn't that the purpose of the 1st and 2nd gear torque limits...so that the end-user has control over this.
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      03-04-2009, 04:55 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garissimo View Post
I can't believe that to be true.

Really, from the "Goodyear Blimp" perspective, the goal is to tune the engine, not the turbo. The turbo is more or less another knob you turn to help the engine make nice, flat torque over the rpm band. Sure, you want to keep the turbo close to it's efficiency range and you want to avoid spikes, but ultimately you're tailoring the boost curve to the engine's breathing needs, not to hold some flat setpoint.

curious to see what a flat 15psi would do this motor...good or bad
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      03-04-2009, 06:36 PM   #19
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Have you tried this with user torque settings at 100% or is the reason for the 90% strictly for invisibility?
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      03-04-2009, 06:38 PM   #20
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you can't use it at 100% on pump gas.
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      03-04-2009, 06:47 PM   #21
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ah thx
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      03-04-2009, 06:58 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Raising UT will bump up boost at all engine speeds. Going up a stage will only raise boost above ~5000rpm. So it really depends on what you are looking for. Usually, we like to keep a self-imposed torque limit in place which means limiting boost to ~13psi in the low end. Or else we would see the 400+lbft peak torque situation that isn't really necessary.

Shiv

Can you explain why the stages are showing very different boost at 4200 RPM.. Am I missing something?

I was gonna go with stage 1 but I don't like the idea of 16 PSI.. Maybe I should stick with Stage 0

Can the user select the stage they want to run, or is that hard coded from Vishnu?
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