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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Take 3: Vishnu 335i coupe Tuning Update



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      10-19-2006, 01:19 PM   #463
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Top speed limiter?

Shiv,

Have you found any way to get around the top speed limiter?

Mat
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      10-19-2006, 01:26 PM   #464
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PresaMat
Shiv,

Have you found any way to get around the top speed limiter?

Mat
I haven't really tried. And to tell the truth, I'm probably not going to. Legal implications are pretty profound.

-shiv
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      10-19-2006, 01:34 PM   #465
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu
I haven't really tried. And to tell the truth, I'm probably not going to. Legal implications are pretty profound.

-shiv
Ah ok. There is a place in TX called the Texas Mile... a old airport track 1 mile long where you try to reach the highest speed you can... would have loved to see how fast I could get upto.
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      10-19-2006, 01:42 PM   #466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RiXst3r
SHIV:
how noticable is the extra power, on the xede only car? Did you drive it before the exhaust? how did it feel?
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      10-19-2006, 01:49 PM   #467
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Originally Posted by RiXst3r
It's certainly noticeable. But going back to that after having 370lb-ft of torque and 330whp is probabably going to be a bummer. But if the only other setup you've driven is stock, it'll feel great

shiv
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      10-19-2006, 01:50 PM   #468
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu
Yes I did. Expect 310whp and 310lb-ft of torque with the Xede on an otherwise stock car.

shiv
Shiv,

Well, although it's a different dyno test with different conditions and a different dyno machine, but just to put this into perspective, Automobile Mag's dyno runs of 2 stock 335i Coupes concluded 276whp, 280whp, 283whp, 282whp, 285whp, 287whp, and then 299.93 whp. They also saw 285 ft./lb. TQ and 300 ft./lb/ TQ. So, then what you're saying is that your best guess right now is that the Xede-only kit will add approx. another 10-34whp and 10-25 ft./lb. of TQ, (+/- ? for the inconsistencies of testing with different dyno's)?

I think what some of us are saying here is that there may be a lot of ppl interested in the complete Shivnu Xede/Exhaust kit (adding another 60+ HP/TQ) for "under $3k" and some that will be more than happy to order the Xede-only option (which may hopefully really add at least 25 HP/TQ) for around $1k. I hope you understand that this too is a worthwhile mod for many of us (even though the Xede tuning won't be allowed to breath better with the stock exhaust).
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      10-19-2006, 02:06 PM   #469
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sflgator
Shiv,

Well, although it's a different dyno test with different conditions and a different dyno machine, but just to put this into perspective, Automobile Mag's dyno runs of 2 stock 335i Coupes concluded 276whp, 280whp, 283whp, 282whp, 285whp, 287whp, and then 299.93 whp. They also saw 285 ft./lb. TQ and 300 ft./lb/ TQ. So, then what you're saying is that your best guess right now is that the Xede-only kit will add approx. another 10-34whp and 10-25 ft./lb. of TQ, (+/- ? for the inconsistencies of testing with different dyno's)?

I think what some of us are saying here is that there may be a lot of ppl interested in the complete Shivnu Xede/Exhaust kit (adding another 60+ HP/TQ) for "under $3k" and some that will be more than happy to order the Xede-only option (which may hopefully really add at least 25 HP/TQ) for around $1k. I hope you understand that this too is a worthwhile mod for many of us (even though the Xede tuning won't be allowed to breath better with the stock exhaust).
Automobile never saw 300whp during normal dyno testing. They should never have printed that because now people think the car makes 300whp. It doesn't. All turbo cars have boost spikes that occur between shifts. It's a dynamic effect and is not calculated into the rating of the car since those tests are done under steady state conditions. Even on Dynojets, the ramp up is slow enough so that the spikes wont come into play. But when you run up the gears on a dyno, you'll see all sorts of brief power spikes. A part of that power spike is dyno influenced. So don't blame it all on the car.

So their car, on their dyno, made 282-287whp. Our car, on the dyno we used made, about 5-10whp less. Different cars, different dynos, different gas. All in all, we expect the XEDE on another otherwise stock car, to make an additional 30-35whp with similar gains in torque. Maybe a bit more for cars that run on 93oct. Once we tune a few more stock 335is with the Xede (and nothing else), we'll have a better picture of what to expect. Basing all claims on a sample pool of 1 (our car) isn't the best idea.

Regards
shiv
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      10-19-2006, 02:08 PM   #470
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Shiv,
Maybe you've allready answered this, and if so sorry to ask again......
I know right now you plan on doing a couple cars in your area to get these on the road and all that... But now that we are talking exhaust and XEDE how are the people that live in places where you dont plan to do dyno/installs going to get the product?? Do we buy a kit and do it ourselves(exhaust also), or have to bring the car to you somehow? I really want to have this done, just working on the WAF(wife approval factor)... Thanks for the update!
One other silly question.. Wil this override the DTC or will that still work when on? I understand that this wont help performance but...... I used to drive a vette and even in the rain when I got on it I could control it(obviously in modderation).. But it was barely sprinkling yesterday and I barely got on it (just trying to learn the limitations of the car and had DTC off) and started to go sideways REALLY quick... Guess Im not used to the way turbo-cars drive... Im used to the power in 1-2 gear mostly... So for me and my wife the DTC could be really important and just wonder how it will be affected.
THANKS!!!!!!!!!!
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      10-19-2006, 02:17 PM   #471
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu
Automobile never saw 300whp during normal dyno testing. They should never have printed that because now people think the car makes 300whp. It doesn't. All turbo cars have boost spikes that occur between shifts. It's a dynamic effect and is not calculated into the rating of the car since those tests are done under steady state conditions. Even on Dynojets, the ramp up is slow enough so that the spikes wont come into play. But when you run up the gears on a dyno, you'll see all sorts of brief power spikes. A part of that power spike is dyno influenced. So don't blame it all on the car.

So their car, on their dyno, made 282-287whp. Our car, on the dyno we used made, about 5-10whp less. Different cars, different dynos, different gas. All in all, we expect the XEDE on another otherwise stock car, to make an additional 30-35whp with similar gains in torque. Maybe a bit more for cars that run on 93oct. Once we tune a few more stock 335is with the Xede (and nothing else), we'll have a better picture of what to expect. Basing all claims on a sample pool of 1 (our car) isn't the best idea.

Regards
shiv

Great! Thanks for the explanation...makes sense. Now, this is what I'm (and I suspect many others that have been following your 335i Xede testing) interested in...the Xede-only kit! I definitely could deal with another 30-35WHP/TQ on the 335i Coupe. Now, if only you could get some 335i's w/o your exhaust on there for more testing, so you could release the Xede-only product in the next 2 months!!! btw - yes, we have plenty of 93 oct. gas in S. FL.
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      10-19-2006, 02:32 PM   #472
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommithy
Just under 3k is the price he *thinks* it will sell for.

Adding a cat back exhaust will not void your warranty unless they can prove that the modification caused the particular issue you are trying to have repaired and even then it will only void the warranty for that particular issue not the whole car. I.E. if your transmission falls out they cannot void the warranty on that just because you have a cat back exhaust installed.

That said, the new exhaust does remove the secondary cats which is illegal for "on road" use but unless you run into the emissions police I doubt you will have any issues. Shiv did post a smog test and the car passed with flying colors without the secondary cats so the only issue you may have is if the state you live in does physical inspections when you are having a smog test and they notice the missing cats.

Good luck convincing BMW that a non stock software flash and non stock exhaust will be protected by the Magnuson Moss warranty act.
That act was not meant to allow vehicle owners to greatly modify the performance and functional parameters set by the manufacturer.
It was done to protect consumers from being charged ridiculous prices for basic maintainance such as oil changes, filters, wipers, tires, brake rotors/pads, etc... The act even allows manufacturers to say which maintainence parts you can or can not use, BUT, they must then provide those pieces and services free of charge.

If you simply replaced the exhaust system because something went wrong with the stock one, with another similar piece, BMW would probably be ok with that and you would/might have protection under the law there.
But, if you changed the spec of the exhaust system so that it now changes how the engine functions, BMW would certainly have a case and the law doesn't really protect you there.

Read the manufacturers warranty on what it will or will not cover.
Extensive modifications can disrupt manufacturer design and function parameters. If you still expect protection under the law, then get a good lawyer. However, I'm sure BMW, Audi, Lexus, etc... can easily match and surpass any legal team a typical consumer can come up with.

And, be honest as well. You want to push an engine well beyond it's as sold, warranted performance with ECU/ECM changes, boost controllers, and exhaust systems, and if something goes wrong you want BMW to fix it?
Hey, I'm all for the little guy and not for corporations, but you've got to be honest to yourself as well. If you really expect to hide behind a law that isn't intended to protect you for what you want to do, then YOU'RE the bad guy.

I too like to mod my cars. I've known of Shiv for a few years now.
I'm not a customer but I've followed his work with Subaru and Mits and now BMW. He can do some great things and deserves his accolades.
But, this type of modding DOES put greater stress on the engine and the subsquent driveline. The type of modding MIGHT lead to a failure.
If you mod, then you need to take the responsibility for it.
Nothing wrong with modding. This type of mod is major as it involves not just the engine/powerplant but the whole driveline as well.
It's not like you changed your springs and dampers and tires and then your timing belt failed, thus it isn't your fault.
You're dealing with the most expensive subsystems on an automobile.

Happy modding!

Last edited by RPM90; 10-19-2006 at 02:48 PM.
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      10-19-2006, 03:07 PM   #473
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Has anyone ever seen a case where a warranty was voided just because of a non-Dinan free-flow exhaust mod? I can't imagine how they could argue that less back-pressure harmed the engine in any way. The xede will come off when my car goes in for service, so the exhaust is the only mod that might catch their eye.
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      10-19-2006, 03:14 PM   #474
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90
Good luck convincing BMW that a non stock software flash and non stock exhaust will be protected by the Magnuson Moss warranty act.
That act was not meant to allow vehicle owners to greatly modify the performance and functional parameters set by the manufacturer.
It was done to protect consumers from being charged ridiculous prices for basic maintainance such as oil changes, filters, wipers, tires, brake rotors/pads, etc... The act even allows manufacturers to say which maintainence parts you can or can not use, BUT, they must then provide those pieces and services free of charge.

If you simply replaced the exhaust system because something went wrong with the stock one, with another similar piece, BMW would probably be ok with that and you would/might have protection under the law there.
But, if you changed the spec of the exhaust system so that it now changes how the engine functions, BMW would certainly have a case and the law doesn't really protect you there.

Read the manufacturers warranty on what it will or will not cover.
Extensive modifications can disrupt manufacturer design and function parameters. If you still expect protection under the law, then get a good lawyer. However, I'm sure BMW, Audi, Lexus, etc... can easily match and surpass any legal team a typical consumer can come up with.

And, be honest as well. You want to push an engine well beyond it's as sold, warranted performance with ECU/ECM changes, boost controllers, and exhaust systems, and if something goes wrong you want BMW to fix it?
Hey, I'm all for the little guy and not for corporations, but you've got to be honest to yourself as well. If you really expect to hide behind a law that isn't intended to protect you for what you want to do, then YOU'RE the bad guy.

I too like to mod my cars. I've known of Shiv for a few years now.
I'm not a customer but I've followed his work with Subaru and Mits and now BMW. He can do some great things and deserves his accolades.
But, this type of modding DOES put greater stress on the engine and the subsquent driveline. The type of modding MIGHT lead to a failure.
If you mod, then you need to take the responsibility for it.
Nothing wrong with modding. This type of mod is major as it involves not just the engine/powerplant but the whole driveline as well.
It's not like you changed your springs and dampers and tires and then your timing belt failed, thus it isn't your fault.
You're dealing with the most expensive subsystems on an automobile.

Happy modding!
As i have said before and i have said again.
If something breaks on your car, lets say even your transmission, or something like that.
Take the XEDE off (10 min job), take the exhaust off (1hr). DONE.
Whats the problem? If your scared of BMW taking your warranty away take the necessary precuations when visiting the dealer.
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      10-19-2006, 03:19 PM   #475
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edgarj
Has anyone ever seen a case where a warranty was voided just because of a non-Dinan free-flow exhaust mod? I can't imagine how they could argue that less back-pressure harmed the engine in any way. The xede will come off when my car goes in for service, so the exhaust is the only mod that might catch their eye.
I could be wrong but I don't think any mods (including those from Dinan) are approved by BMW. Dinan warrants their own products. I believe they may also provide limited warranty for problems caused by their products (since BMW wont). But in reality, these cases are so rare that it's really going to be hard to find emperical evidence or a stumble upon a bunch of case studies.

It's common sense that if you want to play, you at least have to expect to pay. In this case, paying means taking responsibility for your actions in case something happens. We will never tell the customer to take off our products in order to deceive the dealership. Fortunately, we've never had to. But even if a problem where to arise, we're not going to encourage you to do so. We design our products to be non-evasive and to give the user the option to remove it temporarily or permanently for whatever reason. But, in the end, such actions are up to the descretion of the end-user. There are always compromises to everything in life.

If you use the extra 80hp, you're going to use more gas, get more tickets, go through tires at a faster rate, etc,. These are the obvious compromises. I don't expect any mechanical issues to appear unless you're the type to flat foot every shift, drag strip launch at every stoplight, fill up with 89octane, etc,. But that's pretty obvious too I hope.

Drive responsibly and you'll be fine.

Shiv
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      10-19-2006, 03:24 PM   #476
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Can you respond to this please. I posted a few pages back.



When mounting the exede, will you need to have a bracket or any extra drilled holes. This is the only other way a BMW tech could find out if you have modded the ecu. Even with the exede out of the car, will there be tell tail signs of anything being messed with next to the ecu?

I only say this because soon the cat will be out of the bag and everyone will know where to look.


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      10-19-2006, 03:26 PM   #477
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sflgator
btw - yes, we have plenty of 93 oct. gas in S. FL.
Where are those 93 octane stations? I'm in southern Palm Beach County. I haven't noticed them, but not actually looking either. I thought I only remember 87, 89 and 91.

Ordered 335i Coupe 3 weeks ago and not in production yet.:mad:
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      10-19-2006, 03:29 PM   #478
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silvrevo
Can you respond to this please. I posted a few pages back.



When mounting the exede, will you need to have a bracket or any extra drilled holes. This is the only other way a BMW tech could find out if you have modded the ecu. Even with the exede out of the car, will there be tell tail signs of anything being messed with next to the ecu?

I only say this because soon the cat will be out of the bag and everyone will know where to look.


Sorry... so many questions popping up, it's hard to see all of them. There is no drilling involved with the Xede installation. It will sit in an empty slot right next to the stock ECU. It will be nestled in a rubber sealed water-proof nook under the engine cowl and some other plastic panels. It's not going to be obvious by any means. We design all our products to look stock when the hood is popped. Even our 600bhp Evo engine packages. Those crazy street racers demand it for obvious reasons. And the CARB police in California are cracking down real hard on cars that are obviously modified. Not to mention that these kits need to pass the most crucial test of them all: the Wife Test

Shiv
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      10-19-2006, 03:29 PM   #479
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90
Good luck convincing BMW that a non stock software flash and non stock exhaust will be protected by the Magnuson Moss warranty act.
That act was not meant to allow vehicle owners to greatly modify the performance and functional parameters set by the manufacturer.
It was done to protect consumers from being charged ridiculous prices for basic maintainance such as oil changes, filters, wipers, tires, brake rotors/pads, etc... The act even allows manufacturers to say which maintainence parts you can or can not use, BUT, they must then provide those pieces and services free of charge.

If you simply replaced the exhaust system because something went wrong with the stock one, with another similar piece, BMW would probably be ok with that and you would/might have protection under the law there.
But, if you changed the spec of the exhaust system so that it now changes how the engine functions, BMW would certainly have a case and the law doesn't really protect you there.

Read the manufacturers warranty on what it will or will not cover.
Extensive modifications can disrupt manufacturer design and function parameters. If you still expect protection under the law, then get a good lawyer. However, I'm sure BMW, Audi, Lexus, etc... can easily match and surpass any legal team a typical consumer can come up with.

And, be honest as well. You want to push an engine well beyond it's as sold, warranted performance with ECU/ECM changes, boost controllers, and exhaust systems, and if something goes wrong you want BMW to fix it?
Hey, I'm all for the little guy and not for corporations, but you've got to be honest to yourself as well. If you really expect to hide behind a law that isn't intended to protect you for what you want to do, then YOU'RE the bad guy.

I too like to mod my cars. I've known of Shiv for a few years now.
I'm not a customer but I've followed his work with Subaru and Mits and now BMW. He can do some great things and deserves his accolades.
But, this type of modding DOES put greater stress on the engine and the subsquent driveline. The type of modding MIGHT lead to a failure.
If you mod, then you need to take the responsibility for it.
Nothing wrong with modding. This type of mod is major as it involves not just the engine/powerplant but the whole driveline as well.
It's not like you changed your springs and dampers and tires and then your timing belt failed, thus it isn't your fault.
You're dealing with the most expensive subsystems on an automobile.

Happy modding!

Umm... Ok then...

Have you read the Magnuson Moss Warranty act? Here is a brief synopsis as to why it was written.

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/...#Magnuson-Moss


That said, I was simply trying to point out to the OP that adding a cat back exhaust system would not void the warranty on their car. It's that simple.

I myself know that if I want to play I'll have to pay. If I up the ante and get the Xcede setup and blow out my clutch because I sidestepped it trying to race some guy I'm not going to go to BMW and try to get them to warranty repair it. I'll bite the bullet and fix it myself. I'm not out to defraud anyone. Now if say the doors fall off, you bet I'm going to have BMW fix it. And I would be surprised if they tried to avoid fixing the doors because my exhaust was aftermarket or I had a performance piggyback computer on my engine. I would also be protected by law from them trying to do this unless they could PROVE that my engine mods and exhaust mods caused the doors to fall off.
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      10-19-2006, 03:37 PM   #480
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Wiring?

Shiv,

Have you figured out a good way to wire the XEDE to a switch in the cabin (like the ash tray idea)? How are you going about getting the wiring in? Thanks!!

Mat
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      10-19-2006, 03:45 PM   #481
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PresaMat
Shiv,

Have you figured out a good way to wire the XEDE to a switch in the cabin (like the ash tray idea)? How are you going about getting the wiring in? Thanks!!

Mat
Yeah..back to things that are actually interesting and pertain to this specific mod. Arguing about what warranty issues may occur can take place somewhere else.

Any cool ideas shiv?
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      10-19-2006, 03:54 PM   #482
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ICALL
Where are those 93 octane stations? I'm in southern Palm Beach County. I haven't noticed them, but not actually looking either. I thought I only remember 87, 89 and 91.

Ordered 335i Coupe 3 weeks ago and not in production yet.:mad:
Mobil?, Citgo, and maybe Sunoco I believe. btw - if you haven't already done so, call BMWNA (800) 831-1117 and say "vehicle production status." It's more up to date than the BMW OC Web site; your car may very well be in production now.
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      10-19-2006, 03:55 PM   #483
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PresaMat
Shiv,

Have you figured out a good way to wire the XEDE to a switch in the cabin (like the ash tray idea)? How are you going about getting the wiring in? Thanks!!

Mat
I think they should go Bluetooth and skip the wiring. But that might push the price up even further.

K
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      10-19-2006, 04:17 PM   #484
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How does the aftermarket exhaust sound compared to a stock exhaust? Is it very noticeable and alot louder?
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