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      03-26-2009, 01:12 PM   #1
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About 335i brake calipers...

I was wondering if there is any calipers from another cars that be can fited in 348mm discs just by plug and play.I mean 4 pistons or more calipers ... maybe from any porsche, AMG ... whatever.

¿Has the B.S.I investagated this?

Thx.
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      03-27-2009, 05:47 PM   #2
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      03-27-2009, 06:07 PM   #3
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i know alot of people that put porsche brakes on every car you can think of...just gotta custom make the bracket...not hard for someone that knows thier shit
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      04-10-2009, 05:29 PM   #4
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their is a guy that did his brakes on a bimmer message board in singapore. but he did his homework. all biasing, piston size, rotor size everything and he put it up on a spreadsheet. everything based on the flow rate of the oem brake pump. he ended up using a 4 piston brembo front with a 4 piston porsche brembo rear off of a 996.

yes, as most vendors here will tell it is dangerous, but not impossible. its fucking ridiculous the markup they try and slap on there just for a BBK.


E55 AMG brakes are the perfect example. 8 piston monoblock fronts and a 4 piston rear. the same fucking shit you get from **********s or Jlevi. ONly difference is they give you the rotors and brackets. and all 4 calipers can be had for under $1200.
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      04-10-2009, 08:49 PM   #5
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I bought some brackets made by Mbt Engineering in Germany. They were for a 5 series as well as some audis. I was going to use them to fit a pair of Brembo GT1 calipers on my old audi. In the end I ended up going with another bracket and 996 calipers. I wish I kept the mbt brackets. They were basically a blank that still needed to be machined to spec. I didn't have the knowledge to figure out the dimensions myself.

But I know someone else who had MBT custom machine the same set of brackets for his audi to use the 996 calipers. They also supplied him with all of the hardware except the calipers. I think they charged him about $400.

A couple of weeks ago I inquired from MBT if they had a bracket for the 335 but they never returned my email. Maybe if a couple of us ask if will spark some interest. I know that they had brackets for e36, e46 and e39 applications as well as VW and Porsche. Their website is here.
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      04-11-2009, 01:55 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 335iheLLraiseR View Post
its fucking ridiculous the markup they try and slap on there just for a BBK.

E55 AMG brakes are the perfect example. 8 piston monoblock fronts and a 4 piston rear. the same fucking shit you get from **********s or Jlevi. ONly difference is they give you the rotors and brackets. and all 4 calipers can be had for under $1200.
Just a heads up...it is no where near the same as the AMG brakes with some rotors and some brackets.

Yes, anything is possible, and if your budget only allows you to be able to piece a kit together with miscellaneous components from various cars and a few custom machined parts, then by all means go that route. I'm sure most of the vendors you talk to will just tell you to do so at your own risk.

-Step 1 is getting the mathematics (for proper brake bias) correct and making sure it's compatible with your factory ABS and master cylinder.
-Step 2 is finding components that are mutually compatible, meaning the caliper and pad shape must properly match the disc diameter, thickness, and annulus.
-Step 3 is sourcing the custom parts needed to bolt everything to the car is a safe manner. Not impossible, but that is a major part of the safety (danger) aspect.

AND...when all that is done, it is still not the same as the aftermarket Brembo systems sold through dealers like **********s or JLevi. You will have a Brembo made caliper, but as an OEM design meant for a completely different vehicles.
-The calipers developed for Brembo's aftermarket division use different criteria for design, with different manufacturing processes, materials, pad shapes, and overall performance.
-The discs are also going to be 2pc. fully floating, again with much higher quality materials, vein designs for cooling, lightweight aluminum hats/bells for weight savings, and overall better performance and longevity.
-The systems come complete with calipers, discs, pads, brake lines, and all necessary aircraft quality mounting. Your system will be guaranteed for quality, longevity and safety by a reputable source that will stand behind the product for the life of your vehicle.

So, at $1200 for 4 AMG calipers (in used condition), combined with some "I think these are close enough" sized discs, and a pair of "just drill out these holes" brackets, a set of custom ordered brake lines, and a newer set of brake pads, you might end up with something that looks the part.

BUT in no way is that an apples to apples comparison to a properly engineered Brembo system designed specifically for your vehicle. If you look at the costs of each component that goes into a complete Brembo system, and the cost of each "pieced together" component in a "home made" brake system (assuming all parts are brand new at retail costs)...
Quote:
the markup they try and slap on there just for a BBK...
...is not really as large as what you think it is. You are absolutely getting what you pay for. There's tons of other brands in this industry where that might be the case, but not with Brembo.
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      04-11-2009, 01:05 PM   #7
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Gary C have you taken apart a Brembo, GT 6 piston caliper,and an E55 caliper. its the exact same caliper.

and no, i dont think the markup simply because of the roundel is justified. All of this math has been done before, and successfully and its not as hard as some care to believe.

would you like a link to what the audi board vendors are doing for upgrade kits that use 996 calipers AND rotors with a custom hat and bracket?
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      04-11-2009, 08:06 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 335iheLLraiseR View Post
Gary C have you taken apart a Brembo, GT 6 piston caliper,and an E55 caliper. its the exact same caliper.
Actually, YES I have.

The bodies look similar, but the AMG caliper is physically larger and accommodates a much different pad shape. On the AMG caliper there is a bolt that runs through the bridge to add the necessary stiffness to strengthen the pad window since it is a much larger opening than the 6-piston GT caliper. The caliper itself is taller, wider, and thicker than the GT caliper. The superior performance of the Brembo GT caliper comes from the more compact designs, reduced weight and overall size, maximum stiffness, and much better short annulus pad design.

They do look similar so I can understand the simple mistake of assuming they are the same. Unfortunately it's nothing more than an assumption on your part to think that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 335iheLLraiseR View Post
and no, i dont think the markup simply because of the roundel is justified. All of this math has been done before, and successfully and its not as hard as some care to believe.
There is no extra markup just for the roundel.
You can look at ANY existing 14" 6-piston Brembo GT system and it is the same price whether it is for a Subaru STi, Ferrari F430, BMW335 or Audi A4. The piston diameters are different from one application to another to maintain proper bias, and the machined parts are engineered for their intended application, but nothing else is different. You are paying for the cost of the highest quality components available, and the engineering and development that goes into each system. That's it!

Like I said, there are shortcuts you can take to minimize the costs by making a system yourself with miscellaneous parts, or go for another brand that outsources their manufacturing from overseas and then marks it up when they put their final stamps or marketing twists on it. That is not how Brembo does things and the performance, quality and longevity will prove that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 335iheLLraiseR View Post
would you like a link to what the audi board vendors are doing for upgrade kits that use 996 calipers AND rotors with a custom hat and bracket?
Again, the Audi scenario is the same as what I covered in a previous post.
MUCH much different from a properly developed aftermarket Brembo kit.
Granted, I know the piston diameters of the calipers that are being used in many of the Audi applications and they are more appropriate than I would have guessed, but the fact of the matter is that all of the other components fall short. The calipers are great since they come from Brembo manufactured for Porsche, but they too are developed for OEM consumption and do not follow the same criteria or offer the same total benefit of the aftermarket product line.

MY LAST POINT ON THIS TOPIC:

It is a viable option as long as you know what you are getting yourself into.
Be aware of the safety issues if it is nor done correctly.
Don't fool yourself into thinking it is the same as what you would get in a Brembo GT system.
And don't expect the same overall performance, longevity or build quality.
It's just not physically possible to product the same results at such reduced costs.
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      04-11-2009, 08:07 PM   #9
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Or..... Rotora makes a caliper kit that's significantly cheaper than a BBK.
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      04-13-2009, 11:42 AM   #10
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Gary, thank you for sharing that information...its rare that legitimate facts are recorded in these threads!
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      04-13-2009, 12:40 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 335iheLLraiseR View Post
Gary C have you taken apart a Brembo, GT 6 piston caliper,and an E55 caliper. its the exact same caliper.

and no, i dont think the markup simply because of the roundel is justified. All of this math has been done before, and successfully and its not as hard as some care to believe.

would you like a link to what the audi board vendors are doing for upgrade kits that use 996 calipers AND rotors with a custom hat and bracket?
fight fight fight!
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      04-13-2009, 04:42 PM   #12
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Thanks Gary for helping shedding some light on the matter.

Great thread and good read!
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      04-17-2009, 10:09 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary_C View Post
Actually, YES I have.

The bodies look similar, but the AMG caliper is physically larger and accommodates a much different pad shape. On the AMG caliper there is a bolt that runs through the bridge to add the necessary stiffness to strengthen the pad window since it is a much larger opening than the 6-piston GT caliper. The caliper itself is taller, wider, and thicker than the GT caliper. The superior performance of the Brembo GT caliper comes from the more compact designs, reduced weight and overall size, maximum stiffness, and much better short annulus pad design.

They do look similar so I can understand the simple mistake of assuming they are the same. Unfortunately it's nothing more than an assumption on your part to think that.



There is no extra markup just for the roundel.
You can look at ANY existing 14" 6-piston Brembo GT system and it is the same price whether it is for a Subaru STi, Ferrari F430, BMW335 or Audi A4. The piston diameters are different from one application to another to maintain proper bias, and the machined parts are engineered for their intended application, but nothing else is different. You are paying for the cost of the highest quality components available, and the engineering and development that goes into each system. That's it!

Like I said, there are shortcuts you can take to minimize the costs by making a system yourself with miscellaneous parts, or go for another brand that outsources their manufacturing from overseas and then marks it up when they put their final stamps or marketing twists on it. That is not how Brembo does things and the performance, quality and longevity will prove that.



Again, the Audi scenario is the same as what I covered in a previous post.
MUCH much different from a properly developed aftermarket Brembo kit.
Granted, I know the piston diameters of the calipers that are being used in many of the Audi applications and they are more appropriate than I would have guessed, but the fact of the matter is that all of the other components fall short. The calipers are great since they come from Brembo manufactured for Porsche, but they too are developed for OEM consumption and do not follow the same criteria or offer the same total benefit of the aftermarket product line.

MY LAST POINT ON THIS TOPIC:

It is a viable option as long as you know what you are getting yourself into.
Be aware of the safety issues if it is nor done correctly.
Don't fool yourself into thinking it is the same as what you would get in a Brembo GT system.
And don't expect the same overall performance, longevity or build quality.
It's just not physically possible to product the same results at such reduced costs.
I have to admit thats an excellent post.

have you ever seen this spreadsheet? Yes its an e36 but only being used for example.



Care should be taken when building a system from scratch, but its far from impossible or as difficult as some like to portray. There are people here who just want to dress up their wheel wells, and some who want an upgrade in performance. Will the hard core track junky go for something like this? probably not. But a good chunk of the rest of the people would, and why shouldnt they?


I dont think that those who wish to pursue this should be shoo'd off like they have been.
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      04-18-2009, 01:20 AM   #14
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Armchair engineering

Quote:
Originally Posted by 335iheLLraiseR View Post
have you ever seen this spreadsheet? Yes its an e36 but only being used for example.



Care should be taken when building a system from scratch, but its far from impossible or as difficult as some like to portray. There are people here who just want to dress up their wheel wells, and some who want an upgrade in performance. Will the hard core track junky go for something like this? probably not. But a good chunk of the rest of the people would, and why shouldnt they?

I dont think that those who wish to pursue this should be shoo'd off like they have been.
Before anyone starts re-engineering their brake system at home, they must also take into account that many vehicles have tandem bore master cylinders -- the front bore and rear bore are different diameters. This means that the front line pressure will be higher than the rear at any given level of pedal effort, negating this simple spreadsheet as it is shown.

Also, the piston areas, effective radius and brake torques are completely incorrect in this example. As with a lot of things, they are not necessarily difficult if one knows what they are doing. Heart surgeons do what they do every day and probably don't think it is as difficult as I think it is. But I wouldn't attempt that on my own either, even after a few "lessons" on the Internet. Experience far outweighs only book knowledge on either topic.

I don't say this to be a smartass, but if amateurs are playing around with their brake systems, I hope they don't intend to drive on public roads surrounded by innocent people (or on a track near me!). Getting it all wrong, even while having the best of intentions, can have disastrous results in a panic braking situation.
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      04-18-2009, 11:15 PM   #15
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nevermind.
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      04-19-2009, 10:49 PM   #16
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Oh, that's Joon's post in BMW-SG forums.

Btw, there is a Rotora calipler kit for the 335. I have that on my ride and the writeup is here: http://www.bmw-sg.com/forums/suspens...ghlight=rotora
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      04-19-2009, 11:13 PM   #17
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I had the Rotora Caliper kit on my car for a while and I really liked it.
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      04-19-2009, 11:45 PM   #18
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I had the Rotora Caliper kit on my car for a while and I really liked it.
have you sold it yet?
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      04-19-2009, 11:46 PM   #19
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Oh, that's Joon's post in BMW-SG forums.

Btw, there is a Rotora calipler kit for the 335. I have that on my ride and the writeup is here: http://www.bmw-sg.com/forums/suspens...ghlight=rotora
yeah, i know. a friend of mine was trying to get some info about the setup.
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