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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Why can't Shiv create a flash tune?



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      07-06-2009, 09:59 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by onesuperboi View Post
I'm not trying to discuss the pros/cons of pigggy vs flashes, just the reason these tuners aren't offering them.
Boils down to Money....To my knowledge neither Shiv nor Terry have the experience, or infrastructure of companies like GIAC and Dinan. Both the juicebox and procedes are selling relatively well and I am not saying the they couldn't, but switching over now could be more costly than it's worth to them.

I think also it comes down to dealer invisibility. Since the N54 is relatively new, most people would like to preserve their warranties.

All eithics aside, I would guess most people would go with a Piggyback tuning solution VS a flashed solution UNLESS someone came out with a home flashing solution or had easy access to a tuner that could flash back to stock on demand. The fact that even dealers have issues with flashing the ECU from time to time, a home flashing solution seems out of the question in regards to a relatively affordable solution.
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      07-06-2009, 10:00 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by scottp999 View Post
Pros/Cons and reasons are one in the same. Can't talk about one without the other.
OK, I understand what you are saying. I'm just trying to prevent a general discussion of flashes vs. piggys. I want a specific discussion on why these tuners are not offering the product when there are more and more flashes are becoming available. I don't know of any other piggy-back systems besides JB and Procede, and I haven't heard any new tuners using this method and are rather creating flashes. Why is that?
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      07-06-2009, 10:59 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by onesuperboi View Post
OK, I understand what you are saying. I'm just trying to prevent a general discussion of flashes vs. piggys. I want a specific discussion on why these tuners are not offering the product when there are more and more flashes are becoming available. I don't know of any other piggy-back systems besides JB and Procede, and I haven't heard any new tuners using this method and are rather creating flashes. Why is that?
As Shiv and others have said (& I agree), you can do a LOT more with an outboard processor than you can do by flashing the factory ECU. Meth injection, display & logging of data, throwing a boost gauge onto the factory dash display, etc.

A flash would be a 'great leap forward' only in the way it was in China under Mao.
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      07-07-2009, 01:01 AM   #48
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By reprogramming DME one can play Jingle Bells, flash christmas trees on the screens and manage millions of engine management parameters. There is no limit, but learning the DME first takes time.

Piggies intersept just a few signals. So they are limited in what they can do. Fast to develop for new platforms, but flashes will take over and piggies move to the following new platforms in which they have the advantage. That's why the piggyback market is so great. For the most customers, intercepting a few signals is more than enough.

Managing all the parameters in DME is a very different game from trying to make the most out of intercepting the signals. Wise men stick to the game they master. Not concentrating fully on piggyback development but trying to win two games could make them lose in both.

For a new tuner in N54, what's the point of going the piggyback route? There is a limit, and the competition is almost there already. There would be no way to be any better than the current champs.
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      07-07-2009, 01:12 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by jippii ensio View Post
By reprogramming DME one can play Jingle Bells, flash christmas trees on the screens and manage millions of engine management parameters. There is no limit, but learning the DME first takes time.

Piggies intersept just a few signals. So they are limited in what they can do. Fast to develop for new platforms, but flashes will take over and piggies move to the following new platforms in which they have the advantage. That's why the piggyback market is so great. For the most customers, intercepting a few signals is more than enough.

Managing all the parameters in DME is a very different game from trying to make the most out of intercepting the signals. Wise men stick to the game they master. Not concentrating fully on piggyback development but trying to win two games could make them lose in both.

For a new tuner in N54, what's the point of going the piggyback route? There is a limit, and the competition is almost there already. There would be no way to be any better than the current champs.
The PROcede is no longer a traditional piggyback which is limited by i/o. With CANbus integration it gets access to hundreds of channels of engine data, NOT the 3 or 4 signals that are intercepted/tapped in the wiring harness. The standard limitations of the piggyback no longer apply to the PROcede.

shiv
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      07-07-2009, 08:48 AM   #50
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I bet a dollar within 2 years of this post Vishnu will have a reflash available for the N54. I'm not saying whether it will be because of a lack of demand for the piggyback or the amount of demand for a reflash but, I bet it will happen.

As a business you can only ignore what a large amount of people want for so long while they are handing their money to others.
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      07-07-2009, 11:00 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
The PROcede is no longer a traditional piggyback which is limited by i/o. With CANbus integration it gets access to hundreds of channels of engine data, NOT the 3 or 4 signals that are intercepted/tapped in the wiring harness. The standard limitations of the piggyback no longer apply to the PROcede.

shiv
Thank you for responding. Would it be safe to safe that with the integration of the CANbus, that the Procede is able to do as many things as a flash without overwriting the DME? If that's the case, then I can certainly understand why you have stuck to the piggyback if you are able to do just as much as flashing the DME.
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      07-07-2009, 11:22 AM   #52
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Lots of nonsense in this thread.

Flashing doesn't cost $1000 every time. Google the Accessport we used to use tuning subies. Plug it in, flash the ECU to whatever map you want, including dozens and dozens of customs maps for common mod combinations. You absolutely can mail the product.

Holy misinformation batman!

The reason they're not out yet, is because of the vast differences in the hardware/technology between what the Suby ECUTek guys were using, and what BMW uses for their ECU (DME). Eventually, the tuners crack (or purchase) the ability to edit the chip directly, and thus, custom flash it. It'll happen eventually, but because it's so much more complicated for this car, it'll likely take a lot longer to evolve.

Eventually, it'll all be flashes though.

It's a much better solution than a piggyback. "Tricking" the computer into thinking something else is happening will always be second best to having the timing and fuelling custom designed to each specific set of mods.

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      07-07-2009, 11:26 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AWD Addict View Post
It's a much better solution than a piggyback. "Tricking" the computer into thinking something else is happening will always be second best to having it custom designed to each specific set of mods.

dR
Sorry, so far that hasn't been the case with the N54.
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      07-07-2009, 11:31 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onesuperboi View Post
Thank you for responding. Would it be safe to safe that with the integration of the CANbus, that the Procede is able to do as many things as a flash without overwriting the DME? If that's the case, then I can certainly understand why you have stuck to the piggyback if you are able to do just as much as flashing the DME.
I can(and DO) monitor the CANBUS with this thing...

http://www.dashhawk.com/

That is all Shiv is doing. There is no data being changed on the CANBUS (at least in regards to engine parameters). I have no idea what he is doing on the display. I remember hearing about displaying a numerical boost number there, but never heard if he got it working.

Now, he can monitor what is going on and whatever sensor signals he is interpreting he can change the output to try to adjust based on the CAN information. But it is still 'tricking' the DME. It works, and he makes power. But don't think he is actually changing data in the DME directly. It is a cause and effect type deal.
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      07-07-2009, 11:35 AM   #55
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He is working on the on-dash boost display... along with other values you can toggle between.
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      07-07-2009, 11:53 AM   #56
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I think Shiv mentioned in the post that he can monitor more engine parameters with the CANBUS. So, I want to know if he has as much control in the parameters with a piggy as opposed to a flash tune and that the only difference is the technique (intercepting vs. directly overwriting the DME).
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      07-07-2009, 12:00 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AWD Addict View Post
Lots of nonsense in this thread.

Flashing doesn't cost $1000 every time. Google the Accessport we used to use tuning subies. Plug it in, flash the ECU to whatever map you want, including dozens and dozens of customs maps for common mod combinations. You absolutely can mail the product.
If you go dinan it does. You get flash the first time... what is it now $1500? Stage 2 is like another $1000 or so? I'm not exactly sure on the numbers because I don't follow the dinan flashes, but it just about costs $1000 or so through each stage. Where with the piggy it costs you once and then you upgrade maps for free.

Flashes for the evo are on completely different level. Most mail in flashes or custom tuning will cost you $300 give or take a few, each time your re-tuned or re-flashed and that doesn't include dyno time if that is how you choose to get tuned. Tuners won't charge you $350 once and then give you unlimited flashes when you put more parts on. Their out to make money not give away their tuning abilities for free.
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      07-07-2009, 12:04 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onesuperboi View Post
I think Shiv mentioned in the post that he can monitor more engine parameters with the CANBUS. So, I want to know if he has as much control in the parameters with a piggy as opposed to a flash tune and that the only difference is the technique (intercepting vs. directly overwriting the DME).
He can monitor, but all he can do to try to change them is change the signal on one of the sensors he is intercepting.

It is cause and effect really. It works, clearly... but being able to tell the DME exactly what to do is better. But until someone with the ability to flash goes for a horsepower trophy, the flashes will always be looked down upon as inferior (because they make less power right now).
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      07-07-2009, 12:07 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onesuperboi View Post
I think Shiv mentioned in the post that he can monitor more engine parameters with the CANBUS. So, I want to know if he has as much control in the parameters with a piggy as opposed to a flash tune and that the only difference is the technique (intercepting vs. directly overwriting the DME).
The canbus is the data stream into and out of the ECU. The Procede reads that. If the factory ECU doesn't see it neither does the Procede unless it's specifically added to the Procede harness (like alcohol injection or map switching). That does not necessarily mean if the ECU sees it the Procede does though.
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      07-07-2009, 12:09 PM   #60
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If you go dinan it does. You get flash the first time... what is it now $1500? Stage 2 is like another $1000 or so? I'm not exactly sure on the numbers because I don't follow the dinan flashes, but it just about costs $1000 or so through each stage. Where with the piggy it costs you once and then you upgrade maps for free.

Flashes for the evo are on completely different level. Most mail in flashes or custom tuning will cost you $300 give or take a few, each time your re-tuned or re-flashed and that doesn't include dyno time if that is how you choose to get tuned. Tuners won't charge you $350 once and then give you unlimited flashes when you put more parts on. Their out to make money not give away their tuning abilities for free.
Dinan is ONE flash tuner. Their prices are crazy to begin with, but you get that warranty... lol.

What about the other flashes that are becoming available? Do you know their policy on flashing higher stages?

Now, you mentioned a piggy. So people with Procede 1.47 can use these new maps? Nope, they had to upgrade somewhere along the line. If they were smart, they held out for a while and did not upgrade at every new revision.
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      07-07-2009, 12:16 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smdandb2 View Post
Dinan is ONE flash tuner. Their prices are crazy to begin with, but you get that warranty... lol.

What about the other flashes that are becoming available? Do you know their policy on flashing higher stages?

Now, you mentioned a piggy. So people with Procede 1.47 can use these new maps? Nope, they had to upgrade somewhere along the line. If they were smart, they held out for a while and did not upgrade at every new revision.
This. If you bought V1.47 and upgraded to V2 you are talking about something like $1500 in that alone. If you now want the latest and greatest your V2 is essentially worthless and you'll have to shell out another $1100 never mind if you did V3 as well. $2600 in piggybacks is not much better then paying to have the thing tuned when you upgrade parts.
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      07-07-2009, 12:24 PM   #62
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Let's face it... Every tune, piggy or flash, is a rip off. We get the power we want and they get all the cash. We're suckers.
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      07-07-2009, 12:33 PM   #63
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Let's face it... Every tune, piggy or flash, is a rip off. We get the power we want and they get all the cash. We're suckers.
how is it a rip off? you get a product or service and pay $ for it. There are hundreds of hours of labor and capital for testing equipment on top of the costs for wires, chips, solder etc. that you see when installing the piggyback.
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      07-07-2009, 12:47 PM   #64
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It was a joke.
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      07-07-2009, 12:51 PM   #65
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I can(and DO) monitor the CANBUS with this thing...

http://www.dashhawk.com/

That is all Shiv is doing. There is no data being changed on the CANBUS (at least in regards to engine parameters). I have no idea what he is doing on the display. I remember hearing about displaying a numerical boost number there, but never heard if he got it working.

Now, he can monitor what is going on and whatever sensor signals he is interpreting he can change the output to try to adjust based on the CAN information. But it is still 'tricking' the DME. It works, and he makes power. But don't think he is actually changing data in the DME directly. It is a cause and effect type deal.
These "tricking" the DME comments make me chuckle. Last I checked, computers were logic machines. Completely predictable and repeatable based upon input data (all of which can be monitored by the CANbus PROcede). The DME does not hold being "tricked" by modified input data against you. It will still be there in the morning. It may even still make you breakfast if you are nice.

And yes, we can alter CANbus data as well as read it.

Shiv

Last edited by shiv@vishnu; 07-07-2009 at 01:07 PM.
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      07-07-2009, 01:10 PM   #66
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And yes, we can alter CANbus data as well as read it.
Huh?
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