E90Post
 


European Auto Source
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Low Cost Performance Thoughts



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      10-26-2009, 02:24 PM   #1
Joshboody
Lieutenant Colonel
25
Rep
1,708
Posts

 
Drives: pickemuptruck
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Phoenix, AZ

iTrader: (7)

Low Cost Performance Thoughts

I was curious about thoughts on low cost performance. I have a stock 335i and deciding upgrade directions. The standard seems to be FMIC, DP, tuning, intake, maybe meth... totaling around $3000 or more. I'm thinking about tune and meth, maybe <$1000. Using a low cost tune like JBplus (may not have enough boost), or JB2 to increase boost, and meth to optimize IAT and timing.

- What are the downside of high boost with stock exhaust. What's the max boost with stock exhaust? I would like to stay fairly conservative
- no need for FMIC with meth right?
- aftermarket intake really doesn't matter until higher boost targets??
- best trigger for meth? boost would be easiest i would think, and anything else would require different electronics then what's available. Tunner for meth would be best: procede only option currently?

biggest problem would be if the meth stops... no fail safe. And with higher IATs, the DME would raise boost even further right.

Easy way to confirm if meth is working... IAT gauge, flow gauge

Any thoughts would be great.
Appreciate 0
      10-26-2009, 02:51 PM   #2
Mike@N54Tuning.com
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor
Canada
476
Rep
15,022
Posts


 
Drives: 07335i
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Earth

iTrader: (88)

If you're looking for bargain performance here is my suggestion:

JB3 Pin Out $349
Dual cone intake add on $100
BMS 250psi trunk mount meth kit $355

Then update the JB3 to 2.0 software when available, and use their free software meth safety. It's not as rock solid as the hardware meth safety they offer, but its cheap, easy, and gets the job done. Basically, it doesn't increase boost until IAT drops. I'll do a write up on it when we get closer to 2.0

mike
__________________
LOWEST PRICE GURANTEE ON ALL PRODUCTS - www.n54tuning.com - Email; Mike@n54tuning.com
NEW PERFORMANCE LINE N54 DOWNPIPES & M3/M4 & F30 ER DOWNPIPES NOW IN STOCK - ER N54 CHARPE PIPE SPECIALS - NEW JB4 G5 ISO for N54 and F30 N55 ON SALE - NEW S55 M3/M4 JB4 NOW SHIPPING
Appreciate 0
      10-26-2009, 02:56 PM   #3
shoes
Captain
shoes's Avatar
United_States
14
Rep
635
Posts

 
Drives: 07 BSM E92 335i
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Huntington Beach, CA

iTrader: (1)

While I can't answer all your questions, I can say that I am/was just in your situation and I can offer my opinion.

With a completely stock car, I ended up going with the JB3 PnP + Basic BT and a BMS Drop-In filter. This all came to ~$800ish.
For low cost performance, these seem to be great intro mods. On the price per performance ratio, I'd say its totally worth it; great bang for your buck.

I cant say I'm done modding (I've actually only just begun ), but these 2 mods make the car that much more fun to drive.

Anyway, it basically comes down to how much you want to spend, what is "low-cost" to you.
Appreciate 0
      10-26-2009, 02:59 PM   #4
Muffnbluff
Redline Addict
Muffnbluff's Avatar
11
Rep
783
Posts

 
Drives: '12 BMW 335is
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: STL

iTrader: (0)

You can't run meth with a JB+...you need something that's going to adjust fuel and timing amongst other things before just spraying away with meth.
Appreciate 0
      10-26-2009, 03:00 PM   #5
lpphreakx06
Professional Moose Racer
lpphreakx06's Avatar
Vietnam
101
Rep
7,225
Posts

 
Drives: SG 335i E92
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Bellevue, Wa

iTrader: (25)

JB2 is obsolete, don't even consider.
__________________

BMW Dream Team PNW Chapter, member #1
|HP Autowerks | AR DESIGN | BMW PERFORMANCE | STOP TECH | Volk Racing| AMS | ARKYM
Appreciate 0
      10-26-2009, 03:54 PM   #6
Joshboody
Lieutenant Colonel
25
Rep
1,708
Posts

 
Drives: pickemuptruck
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Phoenix, AZ

iTrader: (7)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muffnbluff View Post
You can't run meth with a JB+...you need something that's going to adjust fuel and timing amongst other things before just spraying away with meth.
My understanding of meth is primarily to lower IAT, thus reducing cylinder pre-ignition, increasing density (but this is directly related to boost). After running many timing logs, the stock DME bounces off the knock limit thus stock timing with increased boost should be a good target. after a very brief search, meth timing seems to be around 10deg in 3rd and stock target is 8 to 10deg depending on outside temp. i would think timing does not need outside adjustment.

A/F ratio i am unsure of. DME most likely calculates per IAT, boost, etc before combustion, and does not adjust after combustion like with EGT. So adjustment with tune per increase boost is necessary, but doesn't matter if meth or not. The DME should adjust per IAT itself. Does JB+ only change boost and nothing else?
Appreciate 0
      10-26-2009, 04:03 PM   #7
Joshboody
Lieutenant Colonel
25
Rep
1,708
Posts

 
Drives: pickemuptruck
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Phoenix, AZ

iTrader: (7)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
If you're looking for bargain performance here is my suggestion:

JB3 Pin Out $349
Dual cone intake add on $100
BMS 250psi trunk mount meth kit $355

Then update the JB3 to 2.0 software when available, and use their free software meth safety. It's not as rock solid as the hardware meth safety they offer, but its cheap, easy, and gets the job done. Basically, it doesn't increase boost until IAT drops. I'll do a write up on it when we get closer to 2.0

mike

So with a meth map, what parameters are different specifically? of course the saftey feature and when initiated. with boost not being initiated until IAT drop... what about part throttle operation? When are you initiating meth? I would think with boost is best, and then fail safe based on IAT, or flow?

Meth Map:
1. safety feature / initiation
2. timing increase / adjustment?
3. A/F ratios different from non-meth? With JB tunning in general, a/f ratio adjustment is based on boost primarily and DME adjust per other parameters?

what about DME torque value? is this disabled / regulated or even with tune is DME trying to even the power per outside conditions?

sorry i have many questions.
Appreciate 0
      10-26-2009, 05:51 PM   #8
Mike@N54Tuning.com
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor
Canada
476
Rep
15,022
Posts


 
Drives: 07335i
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Earth

iTrader: (88)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshboody View Post
So with a meth map, what parameters are different specifically? of course the saftey feature and when initiated. with boost not being initiated until IAT drop... what about part throttle operation? When are you initiating meth? I would think with boost is best, and then fail safe based on IAT, or flow?

Meth Map:
1. safety feature / initiation
2. timing increase / adjustment?
3. A/F ratios different from non-meth? With JB tunning in general, a/f ratio adjustment is based on boost primarily and DME adjust per other parameters?

what about DME torque value? is this disabled / regulated or even with tune is DME trying to even the power per outside conditions?

sorry i have many questions.
We'll get in to more detail on the meth safeties and how they are configured in the 2.0 release. But you have a variety of options. The best case scenario is the CMGS with flow sensor. The preferred setup is having the JB3 run the methanol using a spare PWM output to the CMGS, using an algorithm based on boost, RPM, and TPS. Alternatively you can also plumb a boost line to the CMGS and configure meth flow manually based on boost alone. But when using boost alone there is a delay in meth shut down as it takes time for the tube to depressurize. An algorithm including TPS that is electrically triggered is preferred. The safety is configured on the CMGS side a variety of ways and adjustable in the JB3 2.0 software to match.

The software safety is a simple system but efficient if you want a simpler and easier to implement approach.

The JB3 maps have air/fuel ratios preset but with 2.0 that is adjustable. Most are finding map 7 a good match for daily meth usage. Timing will automatically advance itself just like when you add race gas.

Mike
__________________
LOWEST PRICE GURANTEE ON ALL PRODUCTS - www.n54tuning.com - Email; Mike@n54tuning.com
NEW PERFORMANCE LINE N54 DOWNPIPES & M3/M4 & F30 ER DOWNPIPES NOW IN STOCK - ER N54 CHARPE PIPE SPECIALS - NEW JB4 G5 ISO for N54 and F30 N55 ON SALE - NEW S55 M3/M4 JB4 NOW SHIPPING
Appreciate 0
      10-26-2009, 06:55 PM   #9
Joshboody
Lieutenant Colonel
25
Rep
1,708
Posts

 
Drives: pickemuptruck
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Phoenix, AZ

iTrader: (7)

[quote=shiv@vishnu;6101440]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshboody View Post
So with a
Hi Shiv

I reviewed your post on controling meth... very comprehensive.

some of your opinions regarding conservative Meth / tune mods only:
1. with procede you can retard timing. With meth any need to advance timing? For example can you input -25% correction value.
2. without DP and aftermarket intake, I would have to optimize my own mapping correct? And could I adjust when meth is on, map switching, etc. I imagine most maps are based on DP, FMIC, intake?
3. What do you think about no FMIC with Meth
4. what are my boost limits with NO DPs / intake. i don't want the turbos to work too hard.

My goal maybe a little different then others, as i'm trying to reduce IAT with conservative boost mainly for timing. Others of course lower IAT, but also increasing boost. My "aggresive" map, outside of daily driving, maybe based on timing then.

Is there a limit to reducing IAT where there is limited advantage. Density is increased, but at some point timing would not be effected. IAT when related to timing is just no pre-ignition?? At some point lower IAT could result in a need for timing retard because of pressure. Really since there is a boost/pressure target that is measured by the DME, lowering temps for density may not matter?? So solely to reduce pre-ignition and control timing? now if your target is turbo rpm limit, then further air density is important, but with final pressure target Meth only for timing. just rambling now...
Appreciate 0
      10-26-2009, 07:23 PM   #10
MFKN3
Colonel
MFKN3's Avatar
Australia
40
Rep
2,043
Posts

 
Drives: 4.5L stroker s/c E92 M3
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Australia

iTrader: (2)

I'd get a procede + dp's or FMIC
Appreciate 0
      10-26-2009, 07:29 PM   #11
GTR-Dad
Driver
GTR-Dad's Avatar
Canada
6
Rep
207
Posts

 
Drives: 2012 M5 - DCT
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Beaumont, AB

iTrader: (0)

My favorite mod so far has been tightening the nut behind the wheel. Not sure what your driving background is, but for under $500 I bought some instructional driving books and took a two day race school.
I considered myself a fairly accomplished driver at the time and was astonished with how much I learned with an instructor beside me on the track. This, combined with some autocross and open track days, has increased my enjoyment of the driving experience substantially!

Cheers,
Dan
Appreciate 0
      10-26-2009, 07:36 PM   #12
SchwarzOpsAZ
Private First Class
SchwarzOpsAZ's Avatar
United_States
3
Rep
163
Posts

 
Drives: 09 335i
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA

iTrader: (4)

Garage List
2009 335i  [0.00]
I'm in NE Phx if you want to feel an E90 with a Procede and Intake. I love it and am glad I went with a tune early.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      10-27-2009, 04:18 AM   #13
marconi118
Captain
10
Rep
968
Posts

 
Drives: 06/07 e93 335i
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: europe

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshboody View Post
My understanding of meth is primarily to lower IAT, thus reducing cylinder pre-ignition, increasing density (but this is directly related to boost). After running many timing logs, the stock DME bounces off the knock limit thus stock timing with increased boost should be a good target. after a very brief search, meth timing seems to be around 10deg in 3rd and stock target is 8 to 10deg depending on outside temp. i would think timing does not need outside adjustment.

A/F ratio i am unsure of. DME most likely calculates per IAT, boost, etc before combustion, and does not adjust after combustion like with EGT. So adjustment with tune per increase boost is necessary, but doesn't matter if meth or not. The DME should adjust per IAT itself. Does JB+ only change boost and nothing else?
YES DME is doing A/F compensation after burning via the wideband O2 sensor this is the most important way to achieve the desired A/F

I am thinking the same as you: stock spark timing should be ok with increased boost and meth. Meth will enritch a bit the A/F but it will corrected by the DME. This si good because DME can't enrich more than 30%
past 30% it will throw a code. So if we increase boost, the extra fuel needed should come mostly from the methanol injected and not from the DME
Appreciate 0
      10-27-2009, 04:28 AM   #14
rbaldwin28
Lieutenant
rbaldwin28's Avatar
United_States
7
Rep
408
Posts

 
Drives: E92 335i Sport Prem. White
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Carlsbad CA and San Diego CA

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2007 335I  [0.00]
It sounds like a procede with the meth kit would be a better fit for you so you can data log and adjust IGN Cor. My 2Cents
Appreciate 0
      10-27-2009, 09:21 AM   #15
Zeph
Major
United_States
16
Rep
1,410
Posts

 
Drives: 2008 E92 335i 6MT SGM CR/BD
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Southeast USA

iTrader: (0)

Send a message via AIM to Zeph Send a message via Yahoo to Zeph
FMIC does more than just drop IAT's... Stock design has restrictions and loses boost (causing turbos to work harder). I would rather have tune + FMIC than tune + meth if I had to choose. I don't think you will see a huge difference in price between good meth kit and good FMIC.
Appreciate 0
      10-27-2009, 10:36 AM   #16
Joshboody
Lieutenant Colonel
25
Rep
1,708
Posts

 
Drives: pickemuptruck
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Phoenix, AZ

iTrader: (7)

Quote:
Originally Posted by marconi118 View Post
YES DME is doing A/F compensation after burning via the wideband O2 sensor this is the most important way to achieve the desired A/F

I am thinking the same as you: stock spark timing should be ok with increased boost and meth. Meth will enritch a bit the A/F but it will corrected by the DME. This si good because DME can't enrich more than 30%
past 30% it will throw a code. So if we increase boost, the extra fuel needed should come mostly from the methanol injected and not from the DME
Yes, of course a/f ratio is adjusted by the O2 sensor... i'm use to carburated non-computer controled engines. So >30% code... even with tune? This shouldn't be an issue though, 30% from 14.7/1 is way too rich anyway right. The prob would be maxed boost, IAT per rpm meaning very increased fuel delivery rate throwing code... but of course not an issue cause people are running >450hp. So with a tune I expect A/F ratio is being adjusted by DME with slight signal input from tune to enrich??
Appreciate 0
      10-27-2009, 11:16 AM   #17
marconi118
Captain
10
Rep
968
Posts

 
Drives: 06/07 e93 335i
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: europe

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshboody View Post
Yes, of course a/f ratio is adjusted by the O2 sensor... i'm use to carburated non-computer controled engines. So >30% code... even with tune? This shouldn't be an issue though, 30% from 14.7/1 is way too rich anyway right. The prob would be maxed boost, IAT per rpm meaning very increased fuel delivery rate throwing code... but of course not an issue cause people are running >450hp. So with a tune I expect A/F ratio is being adjusted by DME with slight signal input from tune to enrich??
JB3 and Procede alter the HPFP fuel pressure signal. In practice turbo boost and HPFP pressure are increased so that DME can achieve the target A/F vith injection timing not greater than 30% of the base injection timings in the tables.
O2 sensor signal is altered to obtain that the DME uses a different A/F that the target A/F in the DME.
Appreciate 0
      10-27-2009, 11:22 AM   #18
marconi118
Captain
10
Rep
968
Posts

 
Drives: 06/07 e93 335i
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: europe

iTrader: (0)

do you think stock A/F are ok with increased boost running methanol?
this would avoid to alter the O2 signal.

Only increase boost, increase a bit the HPFP pressure and inject methanol

It could be so simple as that?


BTW: you are used to carb engines, how do you determine if the engine runs on right A/F without an O2 sensor? I am trying this on my oldtimer fiat 127 running big carbs
Appreciate 0
      10-27-2009, 11:23 AM   #19
marconi118
Captain
10
Rep
968
Posts

 
Drives: 06/07 e93 335i
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: europe

iTrader: (0)

I think catless DPs are really a cheap good mod for longevity and increased power...
Appreciate 0
      10-27-2009, 02:03 PM   #20
shiv@vishnu
Tuner
United_States
702
Rep
17,616
Posts

 
Drives: X1, 335i
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SF Bay, CA

iTrader: (0)

[quote=Joshboody;6102219]
Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post

Hi Shiv

I reviewed your post on controling meth... very comprehensive.

some of your opinions regarding conservative Meth / tune mods only:
1. with procede you can retard timing. With meth any need to advance timing? For example can you input -25% correction value.
Yes, you can add timing with the PROcede. However, with the current maps, there is no need to add timing when running 15+psi. The stock, non retarded timing curve will do just fine for the most part. We will release more aggressive maps that will advance timing where it is beneficial (in the 5000-6000rpm range. With a positive 1.5-2 deg correction, we can pick up another 10-15whp.

Quote:
2. without DP and aftermarket intake, I would have to optimize my own mapping correct? And could I adjust when meth is on, map switching, etc. I imagine most maps are based on DP, FMIC, intake?
We have meth maps for stg 1, stg 2 and stg 3 set ups. So it will work fine in any set-up. And yes, you can adjust the level of meth map aggressiveness. Both in terms of boost pressure and ignition correction. You can also set up your overboost limits to make sure boost never exceeds what you find comfortable.

Quote:
3. What do you think about no FMIC with Meth
Within the next several days, I'll be installing our PnP meth kit on an otherwise stock 335 that is currently just running a Procede. I think it will do very well. Possibly better than if it just rain an FMIC instead.

Quote:
4. what are my boost limits with NO DPs / intake. i don't want the turbos to work too hard.
We have had the factory intake on a superflow and plotted CFM vs. inlet vacuum (inches of water) and found it to be very restrictive above 350cfm which is much lower than the flow capacity of the turbos when running a solid tune. So trying to run over 14psi on the stock intake box isn't recommended. And have the fun of running methanol is being able to turn up boost a couple psi (along with dialing out the ignition retard). So, at the very least, I'd suggest DCIs. This is why our Stg Meth kit consists of a PRocede, PNP meth kit AND DCIs. This will keep the turbos working as little as possible when running the 15-16psi you will want to run on meth.
Quote:
My goal maybe a little different then others, as i'm trying to reduce IAT with conservative boost mainly for timing. Others of course lower IAT, but also increasing boost. My "aggresive" map, outside of daily driving, maybe based on timing then.
Ok.

Quote:
Is there a limit to reducing IAT where there is limited advantage. Density is increased, but at some point timing would not be effected. IAT when related to timing is just no pre-ignition?? At some point lower IAT could result in a need for timing retard because of pressure. Really since there is a boost/pressure target that is measured by the DME, lowering temps for density may not matter?? So solely to reduce pre-ignition and control timing? now if your target is turbo rpm limit, then further air density is important, but with final pressure target Meth only for timing. just rambling now...
Lots of questions here. Currently at JFK airport waiting for boarding. I'll do my best to answer these qs when i get back to CA later tonight

Cheers
shiv
Appreciate 0
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:56 AM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST