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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > BMW E90/E92/E93 3-series General Forums > Regional Forums > UK > UK Technical Forum > 335i Turbos - Stage 2 now installed and reviewed!!



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      11-06-2009, 11:08 AM   #89
marconi118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick.CBR View Post
Looking at the second image - the wastegate is that flap or valve that opens (via the actuator arm/rod through the new bushing) and allows exhaust gas to go into the exhaust system and essentially "bypass" the exhaust side impeller (turbine?), correct?

Nick
YES totally correct. Hope TD could use stronger materials that will avoid usure and rattle...
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      11-06-2009, 11:09 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enrita View Post
The ASR or Racing Dynamics are ONLY oil cooled if i am not mistaken.

Are you 100% sure? IF that is the case then potentially I would have major concerns over the longevity of the bearings, given the state of my own turbos. The water cooling system helps to keep the bearing temperatures down - without the water I can't see how the ASR turbos would survive long durations of full boost. Again, that's assuming you're correct and the ASR turbos are only oil cooled.
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      11-06-2009, 12:36 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by E92Fan View Post
Just received an email from Turbo Dynamics to say that the turbos have now been balanced, assembled, and are being shipped back to me today for delivery Monday

By Wednesday morning the turbos will be on the car and I'll be heading down to DMS for a mammoth remapping session. If I have time, I'll also go down to Turbo Dynamics who aren't a million miles away from DMS to see them in person and let them try the car.

Here are the final set of images.
Great photos. All of that is really mouthwatering! Can't wait to see that in person and catch a ride with you.

BTW, I always thought the BMW turbos were oil cooled only, that's at least what I've understood so far. But I'm no expert, so could be wrong.

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      11-06-2009, 03:16 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux View Post
Great photos. All of that is really mouthwatering! Can't wait to see that in person and catch a ride with you.

BTW, I always thought the BMW turbos were oil cooled only, that's at least what I've understood so far. But I'm no expert, so could be wrong.

Alpina_B3_Lux

The BMW turbos have both water lines and oil lines into the bearing housing.

Having studied the pictures of the Racing Dynamics turbos very carefully, Turbo Dynamics have confirmed that those upgraded turbos are 100% only oil cooled. There are NO waterways anywhere on those turbos. What's more those CHRAs appear appear to be from an old T25 diesel unit, hence why there isn't any watercooling on the bearing housing as diesel engines never see exhaust gas temperatures at the same level as a petrol engine

Turbo Dynamics share my concerns over the premature bearing wear on these units, and given the state of the bearings that came out of my turbos which showed a lot of heat soak damage, I struggle to see how the Racing Dynamics turbos will last any length of time, unless they have come up with an alternative cooling solution.

Note that I have only said Racing Dynamics at this point - these comments might be applicable to ASR if they use the same techniques and components.

I have sent emails to both Racing Dynamics and ASR for their comments as I am intrigued to see how RD has overcome this cooling issue and whether ASR have the same design principles.
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      11-07-2009, 02:12 AM   #93
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Great read Tony, congrats on pushing the boundaries mate,
8min `ring laps is really flying.

What is the stock compression on the N54 Tony and how much boost can you run without needing helpers to avoid detonation? I remember reading that Alpina lowered the compression with their pistons but I guess they have to avoid warranty claims from people who might run low octane fuel.

Look forward to seeing the results.
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      11-07-2009, 03:26 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by mikem View Post
What is the stock compression on the N54 Tony and how much boost can you run without needing helpers to avoid detonation? I remember reading that Alpina lowered the compression with their pistons but I guess they have to avoid warranty claims from people who might run low octane fuel.
Alpina do not use the OEM pistons but install forged pistons from Mahle, which allows them to lower compression without sacrificing power output. Those pistons are rather expensive, though, I got a quote on them for around 2000 EUR.

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      11-07-2009, 04:00 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux View Post
Alpina do not use the OEM pistons but install forged pistons from Mahle, which allows them to lower compression without sacrificing power output. Those pistons are rather expensive, though, I got a quote on them for around 2000 EUR.

Alpina_B3_Lux

Thats what I said, Mahle are very expensive when you consider someone like CP will machine a set to spec for a Grand. 2000 Euros is actually a good price for a set of genuine Mahle pistons if that includes taxes.

The OEM pistons will already be forged (even the "old" S54 had forged/part-balanced pistons/rods/crank) but Alpina choose to lower the CR to play extra safe.

If you lower CR you always loose power, the only way to make it back is raise boost or advance timing but obviously the lower CR allows this and a little more safely.
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      11-07-2009, 04:10 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikem View Post
Thats what I said, Mahle are very expensive when you consider someone like CP will machine a set to spec for a Grand. 2000 Euros is actually a good price for a set of genuine Mahle pistons if that includes taxes.

The OEM pistons will already be forged (even the "old" S54 had forged/part-balanced pistons/rods/crank) but Alpina choose to lower the CR to play extra safe.

If you lower CR you always loose power, the only way to make it back is raise boost or advance timing but obviously the lower CR allows this and a little more safely.

Mike is very correct there.

Lowering the compression will enable to run higher boost to make more power etc.
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      11-07-2009, 05:20 AM   #97
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very interesting to read! please keep posting.

good luck!
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      11-07-2009, 06:41 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux View Post
Alpina do not use the OEM pistons but install forged pistons from Mahle, which allows them to lower compression without sacrificing power output. Those pistons are rather expensive, though, I got a quote on them for around 2000 EUR.

Alpina_B3_Lux
Where did you get the quote for the Mahle/Alpina pistons?
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      11-07-2009, 10:14 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by E92Fan View Post
Where did you get the quote for the Mahle/Alpina pistons?
Evotech. Does not include taxes, BTW, so add another 400 EUR if you buy them in Germany. Then, the install has to be added to that which is not obvious either as you have to take most of the engine apart. But a good investment for the durability of the engine, IMO. If I had the financial means to do that, I'd go down that route as well.

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      11-07-2009, 12:43 PM   #100
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wow they don't waste any time, nice!
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      11-07-2009, 05:49 PM   #101
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I dont think is needed to lower compression. We are not boosting 25 psi and i guess alpina choose that route only for durability since the car should be able to run as oem does. You can always raise the head to lower compression.
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      11-07-2009, 06:11 PM   #102
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stock internals + updated turbos + methanol inj + adeguated flash + DPs


this is the best solution
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      11-07-2009, 06:58 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by enrita View Post
I dont think is needed to lower compression. We are not boosting 25 psi and i guess alpina choose that route only for durability since the car should be able to run as oem does. You can always raise the head to lower compression.
Yes, that is also what Evotech told me. The forged pistons would allow for a more aggressive tune, or improve durability on the long run with the same parameters.

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      11-07-2009, 07:03 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marconi118 View Post
stock internals + updated turbos + methanol inj + adeguated flash + DPs


this is the best solution
thats where i am heading. just need the turbos and adequated flash :-) i will probably start with JB3 for the meth and turbos map till GIAC can accomodate my needs.
i want to keep the water cooling and definetely get an 100% proof solution for the wastegates (which ASR and RD dont offer) so i probably will do the Rob Turbos , pictures on N54tech.
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      11-08-2009, 06:59 AM   #105
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Yes first of all get decent wastegate...
On my new 09 turbos with upgraded OEM hardware 8mm rod, the rattle is coming again little by little on soft acceleration.

I am evaluating all turbo upgrade possibilities, looking for better flow at redline without sacrifiing spool time and low rpm torque.

Could you post a link to Rob turbo upgrade?

It seems that Turbo Dynamics retain the same wastegate rod that get used... will it work?

And yes after the turbos we need the adequate flash to obtain the max of the combo:

turbo + DPs + methanol + FMIC

It will be a killer setup if a tuner can bring the optimized flash
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      11-08-2009, 07:21 AM   #106
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here is the link: http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5029
pictures on page 3, 4 and 8 i think. i am not putting in my car a set of turbos which will at some point have wastegates issues. only removing and installing the turbos has a steep price involved.
Also it seems that MT cars suffer more than AT cars of wastegates problem. at least all people i know that were forced to change turbos had MT. i have not this issue. only at start up you can hear them but otherwise i have been pretty lucky.
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      11-08-2009, 07:34 AM   #107
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great found the post on rob turbo and the discussion about the wastegate system.

In the pictures about old and new actuator it seems that the rod is always 6mm
didn't someone said that the new actuators have 8mm? or is it about the wastegate axle that goes inside the housing?

Indeed we need a complete new design.

My 335i is 6MT 06/07 got new revised turbos beginning 09
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      11-08-2009, 07:52 AM   #108
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yeah the problem is the wastegate axle that goes inside the housing. The pictures in the thread are showing still the old wastegates. He is working on a solution . i was looking 2 weeks ago at the old S4 Audi engine and the wastegates assembly was incredibly sturdy... really bad engineered wastegates we got on the N54 ...
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      11-08-2009, 10:19 AM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enrita View Post
yeah the problem is the wastegate axle that goes inside the housing. The pictures in the thread are showing still the old wastegates. He is working on a solution . i was looking 2 weeks ago at the old S4 Audi engine and the wastegates assembly was incredibly sturdy... really bad engineered wastegates we got on the N54 ...
Totally agree. Just got both turbos replaced at 36K due to stuck wastegates which is caused by wear of the axle.
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      11-08-2009, 11:37 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by enrita View Post
here is the link: http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5029
pictures on page 3, 4 and 8 i think. i am not putting in my car a set of turbos which will at some point have wastegates issues. only removing and installing the turbos has a steep price involved.
Also it seems that MT cars suffer more than AT cars of wastegates problem. at least all people i know that were forced to change turbos had MT. i have not this issue. only at start up you can hear them but otherwise i have been pretty lucky.
Does the ASR upgrade addess that issue? It seems that Tony's Turbo Dynamic upgrade does (if I understood it correctly) - how about ASR?

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