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      11-19-2009, 10:44 AM   #1
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CIA Torture Prison Found

Or should I call it an "Advance Interrogation House" for those of you who don't believe the US tortures people.

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Lithuania agreed to allow the CIA prison after President George W. Bush visited the country in 2002 and pledged support for Lithuania's efforts to join NATO.



"The new members of NATO were so grateful for the U.S. role in getting them into that organization that they would do anything the U.S. asked for during that period," said former White House counterterrorism czar Richard Clarke, now an ABC News consultant. "They were eager to please and eager to be cooperative on security and on intelligence matters."

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/cia-se...ory?id=9115978
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      11-19-2009, 11:07 AM   #2
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I believe it. I just don't see the problem with it personally, but that's a completely subjective issue.
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      11-19-2009, 11:23 AM   #3
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they want to torture and hurt us so whats the big deal. Now that this is public great. some stuff should be kept secret
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      11-19-2009, 11:48 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by chinoxs203 View Post
they want to torture and hurt us so whats the big deal.
We should not sink to their level. How much torturing has prevented terrorist attacks only very secretive people will know. If it has, excellent. If it hasn't, well, then we've done it for nothing. Doesn't take away from the fact that it's morally unacceptable. But some things in this world are a necessary evil - this one, though, the public will be hard-pressed to find out on if it is necessary just because of the secretive nature.

I'm sure that there are major terrorist plots being foiled all of the time. I wonder if torturing has helped? I do remember Bush remarking one time that it has, but I cannot find the quote.
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      11-19-2009, 02:21 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Zell View Post
We should not sink to their level. How much torturing has prevented terrorist attacks only very secretive people will know. If it has, excellent. If it hasn't, well, then we've done it for nothing. Doesn't take away from the fact that it's morally unacceptable. But some things in this world are a necessary evil - this one, though, the public will be hard-pressed to find out on if it is necessary just because of the secretive nature.

I'm sure that there are major terrorist plots being foiled all of the time. I wonder if torturing has helped? I do remember Bush remarking one time that it has, but I cannot find the quote.
Im sure it has happened on numerous accounts. Its done for our safety and to gain knowledge to keep that safety. This isn't some fun house for people who get off on torturing others, as you said its a necessary evil.
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      11-19-2009, 02:27 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Zell View Post
We should not sink to their level. How much torturing has prevented terrorist attacks only very secretive people will know. If it has, excellent. If it hasn't, well, then we've done it for nothing. Doesn't take away from the fact that it's morally unacceptable. But some things in this world are a necessary evil - this one, though, the public will be hard-pressed to find out on if it is necessary just because of the secretive nature.

I'm sure that there are major terrorist plots being foiled all of the time. I wonder if torturing has helped? I do remember Bush remarking one time that it has, but I cannot find the quote.
The thing of it is we are no where near "their" level. Water boarding, sleep deprivation, bugs, confined spaces is child's play compared to getting your fingers chopped off an ear chopped off, eyes gouged out, hot cattle iron or a car battery hooked up to your balls. I would never want to be water boarded but I would take that any day over getting my head cut off.

When the Obama administration declassified and released the documents on the water boarding that was done at Gitmo there were plenty of "good" things that result from these techniques. Unfortunately this administration choose to block out those passages in those docs and only show the so called negative things.

We the public will never know everything the government is doing. I don't care what administration is in office there will be many, many operations done that people would call illegal, unethical, immoral and so on.

Freedom is not free and it will never be without sacrifice. I know it is hard for the anti-torture, anti-war people to understand this for some reason but there will ALWAYS be people in this world that want to harm the people that live in a free society. There always have been and there will always be.

So we have a choice to either sit back and let them plan their attacks on us or go on offensive to root them out and disrupt their plans before the can execute them. If being on the offensive means that a few of them get water on the face so be it! I got my bucket ready!!
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      11-19-2009, 04:12 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EK_335i View Post
The thing of it is we are no where near "their" level. Water boarding, sleep deprivation, bugs, confined spaces is child's play compared to getting your fingers chopped off an ear chopped off, eyes gouged out, hot cattle iron or a car battery hooked up to your balls. I would never want to be water boarded but I would take that any day over getting my head cut off.

When the Obama administration declassified and released the documents on the water boarding that was done at Gitmo there were plenty of "good" things that result from these techniques. Unfortunately this administration choose to block out those passages in those docs and only show the so called negative things.

We the public will never know everything the government is doing. I don't care what administration is in office there will be many, many operations done that people would call illegal, unethical, immoral and so on.

Freedom is not free and it will never be without sacrifice. I know it is hard for the anti-torture, anti-war people to understand this for some reason but there will ALWAYS be people in this world that want to harm the people that live in a free society. There always have been and there will always be.

So we have a choice to either sit back and let them plan their attacks on us or go on offensive to root them out and disrupt their plans before the can execute them. If being on the offensive means that a few of them get water on the face so be it! I got my bucket ready!!
+1
Very well stated.
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      11-19-2009, 04:15 PM   #8
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What I don't agree with is this "White House counterterrorism czar Richard Clarke". Damn ridiculous.
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      11-19-2009, 04:50 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EK_335i View Post
So we have a choice to either sit back and let them plan their attacks on us or go on offensive to root them out and disrupt their plans before the can execute them. If being on the offensive means that a few of them get water on the face so be it! I got my bucket ready!!
Good logic. We either have a choice to continue being a free society that dismisses torture and looks down on other countries for being barbarous societies because of it. Or do it to defend our free society? You are a walking paradox.
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      11-19-2009, 05:32 PM   #10
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Actually, Negotiator, he is saying that we can sit back and let them try and destroy our free society... or we can go on an offensive, get our hands a little dirty with things we may/may not like doing, and live in a more peaceful free society.
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      11-19-2009, 05:37 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EK_335i View Post
The thing of it is we are no where near "their" level. Water boarding, sleep deprivation, bugs, confined spaces is child's play compared to getting your fingers chopped off an ear chopped off, eyes gouged out, hot cattle iron or a car battery hooked up to your balls. I would never want to be water boarded but I would take that any day over getting my head cut off.

When the Obama administration declassified and released the documents on the water boarding that was done at Gitmo there were plenty of "good" things that result from these techniques. Unfortunately this administration choose to block out those passages in those docs and only show the so called negative things.

We the public will never know everything the government is doing. I don't care what administration is in office there will be many, many operations done that people would call illegal, unethical, immoral and so on.

Freedom is not free and it will never be without sacrifice. I know it is hard for the anti-torture, anti-war people to understand this for some reason but there will ALWAYS be people in this world that want to harm the people that live in a free society. There always have been and there will always be.

So we have a choice to either sit back and let them plan their attacks on us or go on offensive to root them out and disrupt their plans before the can execute them. If being on the offensive means that a few of them get water on the face so be it! I got my bucket ready!!
Well said!
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      11-19-2009, 05:38 PM   #12
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Does torture work? Sometimes, they say that KSM (Khalid Sheikh Mohammed) spoke after being waterboarded only 2 min or similar. Of course others say he was waterboarded many many more times.

Although I hate to compare hollywood cinema to reality, if any of you have seen the movie 'Body of Lies' I think they make good points about torture. It's much better IMHO to help some of those who have their hands dirty (ties to terrorists groups) and attempt to turn them in your/our favor. Leave them until the time you actually need information from them.

Again, not saying this always works, but its worth trying instead of torturing a person into submission
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      11-19-2009, 05:41 PM   #13
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Yeah, and the other main drawback of torture is the inclination to give false information just to stop the torture. This could either be because you are stuborn and dumb (they will probably torture you again) or because you really don't know anything (and that would suck)
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      11-19-2009, 06:20 PM   #14
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This topic always reminds me of an epic line in "A Few Good Men"

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Son, we live in a world that has walls and those walls need to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lieutenant Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and curse the Marines; you have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives and that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use then as the backbone of a life trying to defend something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you," and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest that you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.
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      11-19-2009, 08:53 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkeye View Post
Actually, Negotiator, he is saying that we can sit back and let them try and destroy our free society... or we can go on an offensive, get our hands a little dirty with things we may/may not like doing, and live in a more peaceful free society.
I know exactly what he said. My point is that you can either use the moral superiority card when invading a country to liberate them OR you can be isolationist and protect your interests whatever means necessary. You can do both, ofcourse, but then you're not that far off from the worst examples in history.
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      11-19-2009, 10:22 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EK_335i View Post
So we have a choice to either sit back and let them plan their attacks on us or go on offensive to root them out and disrupt their plans before the can execute them. If being on the offensive means that a few of them get water on the face so be it! I got my bucket ready!!
Indeed. As long as we keep it to non-brutal torture methods, then so be it. Waterboarding is pretty intense, especially psychologically. Your body basically is made to believe that it is drowning. Scary I'm morally opposed to it, but if it keeps the people of America safe and doesn't go to unbelievably intense torture methods, then okay. Logic states to continue it.

I just dislike it when there are pictures of inmates being stripped of their dignity. I think most have seen those pictures. That stuff is wrong. No one has the right to strip someone of their dignity - neither the enemy nor us.
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      11-20-2009, 12:45 AM   #17
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For those of you who think that the below quote is torture that YOU and your line of thinking are the the type of people that will cause us to loose this war.

"The activities in that prison were illegal," said human rights researcher John Sifton. "They included various forms of torture, including sleep deprivation, forced standing, painful stress positions."

None of that come close to torture. It may be slightly uncomfortable and somewhat bothersome to have to stand in a warm room for a while but it is not torture. Until you have actually been through any of these "stress positions" or sleep deprived you are really don't know what you are talking about. If you have ever been to a SERE school in the military you have been in almost all of these situations. I have, more than once, and it is not that bad.

Here is what how the prisoners are treated. They are captured on the field of battle (yes, we are at war) and taken to an American detention facility. They go from a mud hut or a cave with no running water, indoor plumbing or most of the time any electricity. They have never seen a doctor for the worms, parasites and lice they have. They haven't bathed in days, if not weeks, and have barely enough to live. Once at the American detention facility they get a full medical screening, medications for whatever they need, 3 meals a day, clean clothes, showers, access to TV and news and many other "torturous" things.

Aside from being mildly stress at times in an interview these enemy fighters have it better than some of the US troops over here........yes, I said over here......I am deployed right now just like I have been off and on for the last 9 years. Until you have rowed this boat you can take your soft, love everyone, moral high ground and choke on it........Moral high ground....Ha! we are handing a victory to AQ and the TB b/c of so-called moral high ground.
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      11-20-2009, 07:39 AM   #18
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Has 9/11 not taught america anything? Torturing captives will make you an even bigger target. Does anyone not think to understand why the enemy hates you?
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      11-20-2009, 08:35 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboFan View Post
This topic always reminds me of an epic line in "A Few Good Men"
Yeah that's exactly what I think of too.

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Originally Posted by doc1911 View Post
For those of you who think that the below quote is torture that YOU and your line of thinking are the the type of people that will cause us to loose this war.

"The activities in that prison were illegal," said human rights researcher John Sifton. "They included various forms of torture, including sleep deprivation, forced standing, painful stress positions."

None of that come close to torture. It may be slightly uncomfortable and somewhat bothersome to have to stand in a warm room for a while but it is not torture. Until you have actually been through any of these "stress positions" or sleep deprived you are really don't know what you are talking about. If you have ever been to a SERE school in the military you have been in almost all of these situations. I have, more than once, and it is not that bad.

Here is what how the prisoners are treated. They are captured on the field of battle (yes, we are at war) and taken to an American detention facility. They go from a mud hut or a cave with no running water, indoor plumbing or most of the time any electricity. They have never seen a doctor for the worms, parasites and lice they have. They haven't bathed in days, if not weeks, and have barely enough to live. Once at the American detention facility they get a full medical screening, medications for whatever they need, 3 meals a day, clean clothes, showers, access to TV and news and many other "torturous" things.

Aside from being mildly stress at times in an interview these enemy fighters have it better than some of the US troops over here........yes, I said over here......I am deployed right now just like I have been off and on for the last 9 years. Until you have rowed this boat you can take your soft, love everyone, moral high ground and choke on it........Moral high ground....Ha! we are handing a victory to AQ and the TB b/c of so-called moral high ground.
I have been to SERE school, but I've only gone once. You make good points in this post that I'm sure the tree-huggers turned terrorist-huggers have ignored.
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Has 9/11 not taught america anything? Torturing captives will make you an even bigger target. Does anyone not think to understand why the enemy hates you?
Please stay north of the border. Torturing captives will not make you any bigger of a target. They hate our mainstream religion, society, and ideologies. Torturing suspected terrorists doesn't make more terrorists. That's just the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Having actually "extracted" human intelligence while over there through varying methods, I can tell you firsthand that sometimes you have to be a meanie to get what you want.

I tell you what; I've seen a lot of your posts on here, and I think that you hate America. Which is fine. I don't care. But don't come in here acting like you know something about this. You don't.
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      11-20-2009, 08:46 AM   #20
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Has 9/11 not taught america anything? Torturing captives will make you an even bigger target. Does anyone not think to understand why the enemy hates you?
Yeh, you are right!

We attacked the Nazi's (Germany) first, twice...
We nuked Japan before they attacked us...
We went into Iraq before they (he) went into Kuwait...

The enemy hates us because the enemy hates us. It really is that simple. No amount of apologizing, no amount of bowing, no amount of waffling, no amount of comfy chairs (Monty Python reference) for enemy combatants, no amount of civil court showboating will change anything any Muslim extremist thinks about us.

They want us dead, because they think their God, wants it that way.

If you think they will EVER change theirs minds you are totally naive.
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      11-20-2009, 08:52 AM   #21
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Yeah that's exactly what I think of too.


I have been to SERE school, but I've only gone once. You make good points in this post that I'm sure the tree-huggers turned terrorist-huggers have ignored.

Please stay north of the border. Torturing captives will not make you any bigger of a target. They hate our mainstream religion, society, and ideologies. Torturing suspected terrorists doesn't make more terrorists. That's just the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Having actually "extracted" human intelligence while over there through varying methods, I can tell you firsthand that sometimes you have to be a meanie to get what you want.

I tell you what; I've seen a lot of your posts on here, and I think that you hate America. Which is fine. I don't care. But don't come in here acting like you know something about this. You don't.
Dont hate America at all. As an outsider looking in you get a different perspective. What makes you more of an authority on this topic then I?
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      11-20-2009, 08:55 AM   #22
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Dont hate America at all. As an outsider looking in you get a different perspective. What makes you more of an authority on this topic then I?
Personal experience (fmr USMC 0211/51) and a greater amount of vested interest, along with the fact that I live in the country that would be attacked should these cultures take offense to us being mean to suspected terrorists. No offense, but your posts reek of a self-righteous outsider who thinks he knows all the answers because his country only gets attacked in South Park movies.
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