[MrRoboto]

Originally Posted by JB135i

We attacked the Nazi's (Germany) first, twice...

Alies were engaged fighting the Nazis for two years before America got involved.

Originally Posted by JB135i

We nuked Japan before they attacked us...

Remember Pearl Harbour?

Originally Posted by JB135i

We went into Iraq before they (he) went into Kuwait...

Oh, so you are saying the invasion of Iraq was to protect Kuwait?

Originally Posted by JB135i

The enemy hates us because the enemy hates us. It really is that simple. No amount of apologizing, no amount of bowing, no amount of waffling, no amount of comfy chairs (Monty Python reference) for enemy combatants, no amount of civil court showboating will change anything any Muslim extremist thinks about us.

They want us dead, because they think their God, wants it that way.

If you think they will EVER change theirs minds you are totally naive.

Its is not that simple at all. So of all the 'free' societies in the world why is America the target?

[ragingclue]

Originally Posted by MrRoboto

Its is not that simple at all. So of all the 'free' societies in the world why is America the target?

Because we impose our will on the world politically, and back it up with military action. I don't know if anyone here is arguing for that point; I know I am not too fond of our foreign policy or methodology outside our own borders at times, but that's not what this thread is really about, is it? It's not about why we're "there" or what we're doing there, but about methods employed to extract human intelligence to protect ourselves and the alleged effects it does or does not have.

[jaiman]

America believes its right. The terrorists believe they are right. Using the logic that everything goes as long as you are on the "right" side quickly leads to more nastiness than we've already seen. The slippery slope that starts with torture lead to mass extermination of anyone you might suspect of helping the terrorists. And the line of "helping" gets pushed back a little further everyday. Suddenly, you are just rounding up and exterminating people because they might, possibly, have a connection to someone who might possibly have thought about perhaps attacking America.

Another way of thinking about it is that one of the central beliefs that Americans hold (as far as I’ve observed) is that the individual’s rights trumps the collectives (in almost all cases). This is pretty important as no-one wants their rights trampled for the good of everyone, unless the good that will be done is quite large and the cost to the individual is relatively low.

[jaiman]

Originally Posted by ragingclue

Because we impose our will on the world politically, and back it up with military action.

Did you mention in another post that you've tyaught your kids that the best way to stop a bully is to fight back? I can't remeber if it was you, but if the terrorists see America as a bully, they are following that same logic.



edit: I in no way agree with what the terrorists have done, if I'd had my way I would have been in NY working on 9/11

[ragingclue]

Originally Posted by jaiman

Suddenly, you are just rounding up and exterminating people because they might, possibly, have a connection to someone who might possibly have thought about perhaps attacking America.

Wow that's quite a hypothetical escalation there, seemingly driven by paranoia maybe?

Originally Posted by jaiman

Another way of thinking about it is that one of the central beliefs that Americans hold (as far as I’ve observed) is that the individual’s rights trumps the collectives (in almost all cases). This is pretty important as no-one wants their rights trampled for the good of everyone, unless the good that will be done is quite large and the cost to the individual is relatively low.

You are right about this. Americans are the most self-centered people in the world, with the biggest, grossest sense of entitlement I have ever experienced. That is true.

[ragingclue]

Originally Posted by jaiman

Did you mention in another post that you've tyaught your kids that the best way to stop a bully is to fight back? I can't remeber if it was you, but if the terrorists see America as a bully, they are following that same logic.

Yes of course my kids will fight back; however, our fundamental views on the situation are where we disagree here. Yes, my kid will fight back against a bully, who simply imposes his will because it makes him feel better about himself. The reasons why America does the same are not only as self-validation. Although I don't always see eye-to-eye with "why" we do certain things, I am no politician, and I am no economist, so I am ill-prepared, ill-experienced, and ill-educated to pass judgement on those reasons. I do have my opinions, but I trust experts and specialists to know what they are doing without me meddling, as I expect from others when I am dealing in my own areas of expertise. There are reasons behind our actions, noble or not, that serve more of a purpose than a simple schoolyard bully.

[shpirate87]

Originally Posted by MrRoboto

Its is not that simple at all. So of all the 'free' societies in the world why is America the target?

I'm not sure the British, Spanish, Australians, Danish, Dutch, Filipinos among others would agree that the US is the only target.

[jaiman]

Originally Posted by ragingclue

Wow that's quite a hypothetical escalation there, seemingly driven by paranoia maybe?

Paranoia? Nope. I'm a white male, 18-49, graduate educated in a white collar field earning more than 98% of my countrymen. I'm pretty much the last person who'd have any desire to upset the apple cart. But nice sublte try at calling me a terrorist. Or did you only mean Muslin? Because I'm not one, either.

How about a less extreme example. America is attacked, they round up all the citizens who share the same background as the attackers and put them in prison camps. And that only happened 50 years ago.

Once you start taking away people's basic human rights, where do you stop? How do you pull back from the abyss? I think there needs to be a line. And you don't cross it. Torture, imho, is on the other side of that line.

Originally Posted by ragingclue

You are right about this. Americans are the most self-centered people in the world, with the biggest, grossest sense of entitlement I have ever experienced. That is true.

Actually, the placement of individualism above collectivism is something that I realyl admire about America. The sense of entitlement is completely seperate.

[ragingclue]

Originally Posted by jaiman

Paranoia? Nope. I'm a white male, 18-49, graduate educated in a white collar field earning more than 98% of my countrymen. I'm pretty much the last person who'd have any desire to upset the apple cart. But nice sublte try at calling me a terrorist. Or did you only mean Muslin? Because I'm not one, either.

No I was not trying to call you a terrorist or infer that you were Muslim. Not every post that disagrees with you is a personal attack. Relax. I was saying that's a paraniod train of thought to say "if we allow torture, then eventually we're dealing with mass executions". Not in today's society.

Originally Posted by jaiman

Actually, the placement of individualism above collectivism is something that I realyl admire about America. The sense of entitlement is completely seperate.

Well, my friend, the grass is always greener.... And unfortunately, you can't have our sense of individualism without the sense of self-entitlement. Not in a mainstream sense, anyway.

[jaiman]

Originally Posted by ragingclue

Yes of course my kids will fight back; however, our fundamental views on the situation are where we disagree here. Yes, my kid will fight back against a bully, who simply imposes his will because it makes him feel better about himself.

So if you impose you will with force for self validation that's bad, but if you impose your will on others with force for other reasons its ok?

So motives are more important than actions?

[ragingclue]

Originally Posted by jaiman

So motives are more important than actions?

Actions are driven by motives. Knowing the motivations behind actions would be absolutely necessary when facing an opponent. I don't think you can compare the importance of them. It would also be largely dependent on the specific issue at hand.

Dissecting the motives behind actions is absolutely necessary to get a full grasp of the situation. Knowing actions, without knowing the motives behind them, is useless.

[jaiman]

Originally Posted by ragingclue

No I was not trying to call you a terrorist or infer that you were Muslim. Not every post that disagrees with you is a personal attack. Relax. I was saying that's a paraniod train of thought to say "if we allow torture, then eventually we're dealing with mass executions". Not in today's society.

Sorry, I meant to have a winky smiley there. It was more a joke on the Lefts typical reaction when the Right goes after them about being soft on terrorists. Though the smiley probably wouldn't have given it the punch it needs. Funnier when I say it, I guess.

Back on point, the idea is that you need to have a line that won't be crossed. Otherwise everything is fair game. And it gets very tough to set that line once you've gone too far. Summary execution is not that far from torture. Carpet bombing civilians is just a little step beyond that. Could it happen? Yes. Is it likely? i don't think so. But 10 years ago I would have never thought that there would be picture of American service men and women degrading prisoners in todays society.

[jaiman]

Originally Posted by ragingclue

Actions are driven by motives. Knowing the motivations behind actions would be absolutely necessary when facing an opponent. I don't think you can compare the importance of them. It would also be largely dependent on the specific issue at hand.

Dissecting the motives behind actions is absolutely necessary to get a full grasp of the situation. Knowing actions, without knowing the motives behind them, is useless.

And if you don't agree with the actions or the motivations then you are justified in fighting back?

[ragingclue]

Originally Posted by jaiman

And if you don't agree with the actions or the motivations then you are justified in fighting back?

That's a loaded question that can't be answered with a blanket statement. It's completely situationally dependent, and even then, the "response" has limitations and stipulations on it as well.

[Hawkeye]

Originally Posted by MrRoboto

Dont hate America at all. As an outsider looking in you get a different perspective. What makes you more of an authority on this topic then I?

A lot of the people talking in here are in the armed forces which give them a lot more insight than me, and even I know more about it than you since I have so many friends in service. You just really don't know a damn thing. Or do you "learn" from reading newspapers and watching tv?

[jaiman]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye

A lot of the people talking in here are in the armed forces which give them a lot more insight than me, and even I know more about it than you since I have so many friends in service. You just really don't know a damn thing. Or do you "learn" from reading newspapers and watching tv?

This isn't meant to be disrespectful of the people on the front lines*, but they rarely will have enough perspective to make wholesale policy judgements.

I can't imagine its easy to step back and consider the wider ramifications of your actions when you are locked in a room with someone you suspect has helped build IEDs that will be used against you. In that case, torture seems completely logical as it will help keep your friends safe. I think most people would argree to torture if they thought the information they got would save friends of theirs from harm in the short term. But that doesn't mean as an overall policy that torture is right.



*and I have a ton of respect for anyone who places themselves in harms way for their country.

[MrRoboto]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye

A lot of the people talking in here are in the armed forces which give them a lot more insight than me, and even I know more about it than you since I have so many friends in service. You just really don't know a damn thing. Or do you "learn" from reading newspapers and watching tv?

Again a different perspective. You may have different views because of your friends in the military.

Of coarse, we all learn through newspapers, news, etc. Without first hand experience how else?

[Kroy]

I just hate the fact we try to take the moral high ground on EVERYTHING. I don't care that we torture; I'm sure it's for a terrific reason and is yielding results (otherwise I can't imagine why we continue to do it). I'd bet every government practices torture on some scale. I'd rather be a proud villain than a pretend hero. I understand ignorance is bliss but is the truth really so scary?

[Mighty M]

Would I be more macho if I hooked up a car battery to my balls?

[Zell]

Originally Posted by Mighty M

Would I be more macho if I hooked up a car battery to my balls?

[memento]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye

What I don't agree with is this "White House counterterrorism czar Richard Clarke". Damn ridiculous.

correction. former White House counterterrorism czar Richard Clarke who is now working for ABC news. even better. get in for a few months, get access to the info, the leave and work for a news outlet where you can publish info about it. sounds all too coincidental.