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      12-09-2009, 05:47 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by ideliver View Post
This illustrates the need for winter tires....but those AS that the quattro are sporting will not stop or turn as well as the winter tires that the BMW owner is surely driving now...

http://www.tirerack.com/videos/index...=23&tab=winter

http://www.tirerack.com/videos/index...=26&tab=winter

AWD is great for going...but adds nothing for stopping or turning...my QX56 is sporting these for the winter...

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/BigPic...e1=yes&wTire=0
I've touched on this subject a few times now so I won't repeat myself ...again, only to say this your opinion is wrong, AWD doesn't only benefit acceleration but also stopping and turning, especially in the snow.

Last edited by footie; 12-09-2009 at 06:27 PM.
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      12-09-2009, 06:02 PM   #46
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Audi's owners always resorts to snowy or rainy situations to show how god are they cars.Always.
Have you owned or just ridden in a car with quattro? I have owned numerous Audis...all of them except one was AWD. The help you stay out of trouble in lots of situations...snow/ice/wet pavement with leaves/gravel...but they are not the end all solution. They just help you be safe. That is why I like Audis and quattro. They make haulin around my family, and myself, more safe. I have a BMW now..and will probably get another sometime in the future. I dont disrespect Audis or their owners..or BMWs or their owners. There are lots of nice cars out there I would love to own..including Porsches. Have a nice day.
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      12-09-2009, 06:36 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by footie View Post
I've touched on this subject a few times now so I won't repeat myself ...again, only to say this your opinion is wrong, AWD doesn't only benefit acceleration but also stopping and turning, especially in the snow.
I can see that I wasn't clear...quattro with AS vs RWD with winter tires...I live in an area that averages 100" snow/yr...and people think that because they run an AWD with AS tires that they can defy the laws of physics..further they think my RWD with winter tires is paralyzed by even small amounts of snow...

But, could you be so kind as to explain how AWD benefits the braking distance...I am not being argumentative, but truly wish to learn more about car control
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      12-09-2009, 08:52 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Javi335 View Post
Audi's owners always resorts to snowy or rainy situations to show how god are they cars.Always.
focus on strength....not weakness....for Audi...its the only strength...if you really wanna call it that.
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      12-09-2009, 09:34 PM   #49
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I hear Audi is already working on a new commercial after seeing this thread.
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      12-09-2009, 10:37 PM   #50
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LOL. But I have to say, it's true. I have a B5 S4 as my winter car now, and today we had a good sized snow storm here in TO. Man that S4 is a blast to drive in this weather, and pulling in and out of my driveway which had about 6cm of snow was a sinch. I couldn't believe how well it handled, on stock all-seasons. My e93 is still my darling, darling angel, but in the snow it can be a little.....well just not as poised......

anyways, great pic!
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      12-10-2009, 01:41 AM   #51
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Can I ask the car?
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      12-10-2009, 04:16 AM   #52
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I can see that I wasn't clear...quattro with AS vs RWD with winter tires...I live in an area that averages 100" snow/yr...and people think that because they run an AWD with AS tires that they can defy the laws of physics..further they think my RWD with winter tires is paralyzed by even small amounts of snow...

But, could you be so kind as to explain how AWD benefits the braking distance...I am not being argumentative, but truly wish to learn more about car control
Could I suggest doing a because I'm not going over the same thing everytime something asks for this to be explain.
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      12-10-2009, 04:47 AM   #53
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cool pic!
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      12-10-2009, 07:14 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Could I suggest doing a because I'm not going over the same thing everytime something asks for this to be explain.
OK...now I will be arguementative...from Tirerack testing...http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/...y.jsp?ttid=109

The braking comparison measured the tires' ability to provide traction during an ABS-assisted panic stop in a straight line. We drove the two Cayennes side-by-side at a speed of 30 mph, gave both drivers a braking signal at the prescribed mark and compared the distances it took them to come to a complete stop. The winter tire-equipped Cayenne stopped in an average distance of about 61 feet, while the all-season tire-equipped Cayenne took 102 feet (an additional 41 feet or about two and one-half car lengths). A 41-foot difference in stopping distance during a panic stop at 30 mph on a snow-packed road is more than enough to determine whether it's a near miss or an accident!

Additionally, while the all-wheel drive Cayenne offered noticeably faster acceleration than the rear-wheel drive sedan, the winter tire-equipped BMW's 59-foot stopping distance and all-season tire-equipped 89-foot stopping distance showed that all-wheel drive didn't really offer a measurable advantage when it came to stopping.


I did prior to posting and could find no objective evidence to support your opinion that AWD vehicles stop better than RWD vehicles in limited traction situations.
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      12-10-2009, 07:44 AM   #55
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focus on strength....not weakness....for Audi...its the only strength...if you really wanna call it that.
you trully need to stay away from these discussions because with every new post you embarrass yourself and sound dumber and dumber. I know it is not easy to handle that every magazine lately focuses more on the competitor (read S4), especially after mommy and daddy got you the toy... But don't worry, as in the past, better days are ahead, and worse...
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      12-10-2009, 09:46 AM   #56
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OK...now I will be arguementative...from Tirerack testing...http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/...y.jsp?ttid=109

The braking comparison measured the tires' ability to provide traction during an ABS-assisted panic stop in a straight line. We drove the two Cayennes side-by-side at a speed of 30 mph, gave both drivers a braking signal at the prescribed mark and compared the distances it took them to come to a complete stop. The winter tire-equipped Cayenne stopped in an average distance of about 61 feet, while the all-season tire-equipped Cayenne took 102 feet (an additional 41 feet or about two and one-half car lengths). A 41-foot difference in stopping distance during a panic stop at 30 mph on a snow-packed road is more than enough to determine whether it's a near miss or an accident!

Additionally, while the all-wheel drive Cayenne offered noticeably faster acceleration than the rear-wheel drive sedan, the winter tire-equipped BMW's 59-foot stopping distance and all-season tire-equipped 89-foot stopping distance showed that all-wheel drive didn't really offer a measurable advantage when it came to stopping.


I did prior to posting and could find no objective evidence to support your opinion that AWD vehicles stop better than RWD vehicles in limited traction situations.
You and tirerack are comparing braking in ideal conditions NOT SNOW. That is that I was referring to when saying that AWD benefits braking through the use of engine braking four contract points instead of two, twice the amount of retardation through engine braking Also if you break traction while engine braking on a rwd car the tail has a good chance of getting away from you and once that happens (which can happen pretty quickly) it's near enough impossible to bring back, with an awd car all wheels are contract to the engine it's an even pressure over both axles and the worse case scenario is all four wheel will lose traction but at least the whole car will be sliding evenly in the same direction.

This is the difference between arguing your case from experience and arguing your case by googling.
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      12-10-2009, 09:56 AM   #57
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Have you owned or just ridden in a car with quattro? I have owned numerous Audis...all of them except one was AWD. The help you stay out of trouble in lots of situations...snow/ice/wet pavement with leaves/gravel...but they are not the end all solution. They just help you be safe. That is why I like Audis and quattro. They make haulin around my family, and myself, more safe. I have a BMW now..and will probably get another sometime in the future. I dont disrespect Audis or their owners..or BMWs or their owners. There are lots of nice cars out there I would love to own..including Porsches. Have a nice day.
wow.....why so defensive?
take a deep breathe man.....its all good.
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      12-10-2009, 10:01 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
you trully need to stay away from these discussions because with every new post you embarrass yourself and sound dumber and dumber. I know it is not easy to handle that every magazine lately focuses more on the competitor (read S4), especially after mommy and daddy got you the toy... But don't worry, as in the past, better days are ahead, and worse...
ummmmm...ya sure!
why are Audi owners or Audi fan boys so freakin sensitive???
BMW outsells Audi 3 to 1....Audi will always follow...never lead.....thought you Audi fan boys would be used to that by now!
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      12-10-2009, 10:02 AM   #59
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wow.....why so defensive?
take a deep breathe man.....its all good.
I didn't really view his post as being overtly defensive. Felt it was pretty neutral actually.

I would of sooner applied your above response to dr325i. I think your jesting rubbed him the wrong way.
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      12-10-2009, 10:35 AM   #60
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Quote:
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You and tirerack are comparing braking in ideal conditions NOT SNOW.
No, the comparison is in snow. This is clear from the testing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
That is that I was referring to when saying that AWD benefits braking through the use of engine braking four contract points instead of two, twice the amount of retardation through engine braking
I was clear about braking distance and tirerack was clear about panic stops where ABS is activated in the SNOW...there is even video

Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Also if you break traction while engine braking on a rwd car the tail has a good chance of getting away from you and once that happens (which can happen pretty quickly) it's near enough impossible to bring back, with an awd car all wheels are contract to the engine it's an even pressure over both axles and the worse case scenario is all four wheel will lose traction but at least the whole car will be sliding evenly in the same direction.
Again, I was refering to stopping distance where ABS is activated. Nowhere did I mention engine braking. However, having driven in extreme winter conditions for over 25 years in many different vehicles, and having learned car control basics in RWD boat/car, I have yet to suffer loss of the rear end from engine braking that you describe, especially one that was not recoverable.

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This is the difference between arguing your case from experience and arguing your case by googling
Interesting....hmmmm....first, you chastize me for not doing a search first when I offer my opinions...then you chastize me for offering actual testing of SNOW conditions and tireracks opinion that AWD does not benefit stopping in snow...

My experience with winter braking is extensive...drove in it today

I was just offering the common sense notion that braking distance in snow is affected by the tires at the contact patch, not the drivetrane. With ABS activated, I fail to understand how engine braking would benefit and shorten the stopping distance in snow.
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      12-10-2009, 04:02 PM   #61
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I fail to understand how engine braking would benefit and shorten the stopping distance in snow.
Sorry for my previous replies, was having a bad day which were apparent in my posts. You are quite correct that in all out braking the drivetrain has no bearing on things and on the posts were I did touch on this subject I said as much but as I also had at that time that if you need to brake to cause ABS to activate then you have failed in your bad weather awareness driving. In any case in snow ABS makes braking worse then without it but more occasions than not it's benefits far out weigh it's failing.

So that's why I talk about engine braking and it's importance, what you want in snow is the ability not to lock up, so that is when engine braking is important and more benefical in an awd car as I highlighted in the previous post it will no unsettle the chassis and with twice the effect from two axles and not one.

Engine braking should be used when possible, even in a rwd car only that it's better with an awd car.
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      12-10-2009, 05:54 PM   #62
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Wouldn't the extra weight over the front axle help stopping distances somewhat? As weight shifts forwards, the front tires would have more weight over them which should benefit traction, is this right?

Or would it be the other way around. I could be wrong, and a rearward weight bias might be better, as a forward shift in weight would provide equal contact amongst all four wheels, like a mid or rear-engined car.

And one more thought, wouldn't the extra weight of an AWD system negatively impact braking regardless of how it handles the traction?

I'm just throwing out ideas.
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      12-10-2009, 06:09 PM   #63
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ummmmm...ya sure!
why are Audi owners or Audi fan boys so freakin sensitive???
BMW outsells Audi 3 to 1....Audi will always follow...never lead.....thought you Audi fan boys would be used to that by now!
WOW, another...even dumber post...this is becoming funny.
More please, noob... (in a mean time, read who's currently in the lead...)
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      12-10-2009, 08:53 PM   #64
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Sorry for my previous replies, was having a bad day which were apparent in my posts. You are quite correct that in all out braking the drivetrain has no bearing on things and on the posts were I did touch on this subject I said as much but as I also had at that time that if you need to brake to cause ABS to activate then you have failed in your bad weather awareness driving. In any case in snow ABS makes braking worse then without it but more occasions than not it's benefits far out weigh it's failing.

So that's why I talk about engine braking and it's importance, what you want in snow is the ability not to lock up, so that is when engine braking is important and more benefical in an awd car as I highlighted in the previous post it will no unsettle the chassis and with twice the effect from two axles and not one.

Engine braking should be used when possible, even in a rwd car only that it's better with an awd car.
I did get the feeling that we were talking about slightly different concepts...

My wife and I were going skiing last year and she learned the benefits of engine braking...we were traveling at about 7 am on a clear morning on an exposed highway...it was a crisp clear cold morning and had been a little warmer the day previous....when she hit a huge sheet of black ice at about 60 mph...the SUV got a little loose...she gently lifted from the gas...never hit the brakes and kept the truck straight and let the engine coast us down...truly scarey stuff...a mile past the next entrance....another sheet of blackice...there were cars scattered everywhere...about 100 feet off the road..
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      12-11-2009, 12:56 AM   #65
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OK...now I will be arguementative...from Tirerack testing...http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/...y.jsp?ttid=109

The braking comparison measured the tires' ability to provide traction during an ABS-assisted panic stop in a straight line. We drove the two Cayennes side-by-side at a speed of 30 mph, gave both drivers a braking signal at the prescribed mark and compared the distances it took them to come to a complete stop. The winter tire-equipped Cayenne stopped in an average distance of about 61 feet, while the all-season tire-equipped Cayenne took 102 feet (an additional 41 feet or about two and one-half car lengths). A 41-foot difference in stopping distance during a panic stop at 30 mph on a snow-packed road is more than enough to determine whether it's a near miss or an accident!

Additionally, while the all-wheel drive Cayenne offered noticeably faster acceleration than the rear-wheel drive sedan, the winter tire-equipped BMW's 59-foot stopping distance and all-season tire-equipped 89-foot stopping distance showed that all-wheel drive didn't really offer a measurable advantage when it came to stopping.


I did prior to posting and could find no objective evidence to support your opinion that AWD vehicles stop better than RWD vehicles in limited traction situations.
That has to be the most ridiculous braking comparison I have ever seen. Only one question: How much do each of those vehicles weigh. I have no doubt the cayenne is heavier. Weight has a huge affect on braking over snow/ice.

Not that I agree standard braking is improved with AWD, but engine braking and cornering is improved with AWD in slick conditions.
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      12-11-2009, 01:14 AM   #66
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Audi's owners always resorts to snowy or rainy situations to show how god are they cars.Always.
You make it sound like a bad thing. Is grip in all weather bad? I mean, inducing a slide like an R8 would be cool in an AWD, but there is appeal in knowing even after the tires go out, at least some traction still exists especially here in Canada.
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