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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > BMW E90/E92/E93 3-series General Forums > General E90 Sedan / E91 Wagon / E92 Coupe / E93 Cabrio > Motor Trend Magazine checks in after 1300miles with the 335d



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      01-26-2010, 11:18 AM   #23
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Show me the map for the M3 torque. I disagree with your torque assessments, as the math doesn't support your conclusion. I'm open to rebuttal, however. I've asked demo to provide the chart for the M3, so we'll see if you are correct. If you are, I'll happily step down on that assessment.

However, the 'vast powerband' of the gas engine doesn't compare to the 'vast powerband' of the diesel. Just because it has a lower RPM doesn't make the powerband any less, and stock for stock, you're right, you can't compare the d to the i. There is a distinct difference in feel, favoring the d.
Well, using the M3's DCT we can see in third gear that 2.153 x 3.154 x 295 = 2003 torque for the e92 M3 vs 1543 torque for the diesel.

But I would argue the powerband is less in the diesl. For example, even though the peak toque of the diesel is greater than, say the 335i, it is not available over as wide a powerband. At 60mph, for example, the diesel would be in third gear (less torque) while the 335i or M3 for that matter, would still be in 2nd gear (greater torque due to gearing)
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      01-26-2010, 11:27 AM   #24
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Well, using the M3's DCT we can see in third gear that 2.153 x 3.154 x 295 = 2003 torque for the e92 M3 vs 1543 torque for the diesel.

But I would argue the powerband is less in the diesl. For example, even though the peak toque of the diesel is greater than, say the 335i, it is not available over as wide a powerband. At 60mph, for example, the diesel would be in third gear (less torque) while the 335i or M3 for that matter, would still be in 2nd gear (greater torque due to gearing)
I made a slight mistake. I didn't realize 15% was taken out due to drivetrain loss. In that case, the 335d peak torque in 3rd gear would be 1815 (without the 15% loss), but still not as high as the M3.
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      01-26-2010, 11:57 AM   #25
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Let me start off by saying the 335d is a great car, and I agree BMW did a great job with it. I owned diesels in the past. My experience with them is that the longer the trip, the better mpg you will get. I haven't followed that closely on the 335d, but have experienced it in my old diesel Jetta.


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...if only it came in a MT!
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Originally Posted by TwinTurboXI View Post
+1!
+2!

I would buy it if it came in a manual transmission. I joke with my friends that I don't know how to drive an automatic. It's been more than 10 years since I have had an automatic car. Whenever I drive my wife's, or anyone else's now, I just don't feel comfortable, get bored, etc. But for all the driving I do, if they brought this car with a MT, I would have a hard time not owning it.
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      01-26-2010, 12:03 PM   #26
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I wouldn't expect a manual for that car to arrive for a bit still. With the new 8 speed going in, though, I'm very curious about how the car will drive then (there's no word whether the 335d is getting that tranny, but I would certainly assume so).
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      01-26-2010, 12:56 PM   #27
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Man, I'm really liking everything I hear about the diesels, but I just won't buy one with an automatic. Why not combine the most fuel efficient engine with a fuel efficient transmission?
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      01-26-2010, 01:14 PM   #28
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Man, I'm really liking everything I hear about the diesels, but I just won't buy one with an automatic. Why not combine the most fuel efficient engine with a fuel efficient transmission?
You'll be wanting one of these then :

http://www.bmw.co.uk/bmwuk/models/32...tSource=banner

Review :

http://www.autocar.co.uk/CarReviews/...namics/242759/

Exactly what you ask for.

Me ? I have been surfing on a wave of torque for the last 3 years in my E92 335D. The Automatic (which is efficient, and much more beefy than the 335i box) suits the car perfectly. Forget all this poring over of rafts of numbers - go try one and you'll see why everybody says this.

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      01-26-2010, 02:35 PM   #29
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Add to that the cost of refilling Urea every 15K miles service I think it is. Regardless, you have to fill when you go in for some service. You can add a piggy back like procede to your 335i, get diesel like torque, and tone more horse power, and keep the high revving character for a whole bunch more fun to drive. That is if you are so inclined to tamper with the stock car ofcourse, and not entirely necessary.
Well now that we're talking about mods, you can mod a diesel too.

A reprogrammed 335d can produce 350hp and close to 600lb-ft of torque.
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      01-26-2010, 02:41 PM   #30
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I dirve a 335i with 6spd MT and Dinan software daily. And I have driven the 335d, briefly.

I would seriously consider a 335d as my next in a heartbeat. Or a 535d (maybe a 535d xDrive Sportwagon for a family/roadtrip/ski car?). IF I did more highway driving. That is the key....no technology today beatd Diesel on the highway. The Autobahns are ruled by large, diesel sedans. But I drive about 18,000 km (12,000 miles) a year. Not enough milage to make up the diesel premium. And the 335d wasn't available when I bought mine.

As for transmission...the autos are beefier that the manuals, able to handle more torque. Dinan sites the manual transmission torque ratings as one of the main limiting factors in how much you can tune the n54 engine. Diesel engines put out TONS of torque at low rpms. Realy low (think 4,000 redlines). The auto transmission can be geared and reprogrammed to mask the diesel's lack of high-rpm and abundance of low.

And excess torque of the diesel is perfect for larger vehicles.....like a x5. That is why almost all big-assed pickups run diesel engines.
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      01-26-2010, 02:46 PM   #31
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it is not only all about the fuel efficiency a Diesel offers...

it`s a whole different driving experience with the huge torque plateau you have from low revs to high revs
you could bet that you`d rock any 335i from 30-60 or 50 - 80...the amount of torque which kicks in your back for a short time is amazing!
quick overtaking should be no problem at any time

but the sound is a different thing....not bad,but it can`t be compared to a gasoline engine
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      01-26-2010, 02:59 PM   #32
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Total cost of ownership difference between the 335d and 335i is pretty unclear. The 335d only seems to make sense if the car was bought outright (not leased) and driven quite a bit (certainly more than 15K miles/yr).

Leasing them doesn't really make sense. Not only is the MSRP higher, but current lease rates for the 335d are pretty unattractive compared to the 335i and add significantly to the monthly payment, all other things being equal:

2010 BMW 335i Sedan
24 Month – Residual 66% of MSRP – .00180 Base Rate
36 Month – Residual 60% of MSRP – .00180 Base Rate

2010 BMW 335d Sedan
24 Month – Residual 62% of MSRP – .00245 Base Rate
36 Month – Residual 54% of MSRP – .00245 Base Rate

I'm actually surprised the residual is so much lower on the 335d. I know it's not really a valid comparison but if you were to look at resale values of full size pickups with diesels (eg Dodge w/ Cummins engine, GM Duramax, etc), they're all priced considerably higher than the gas models. Sure, they cost more to begin with, but they seem to depreciate less.

All this being said, I hope BMW continues to offer diesel-powered models in the US. Although I don't see myself in the market for a new car for several more years, I'm hoping by then that diesel at least remains an option. 425+ torque in a car the size of the E90 is quite intriguing!
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      01-26-2010, 03:04 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by andy92782 View Post
Total cost of ownership difference between the 335d and 335i is pretty unclear. The 335d only seems to make sense if the car was bought outright (not leased) and driven quite a bit (certainly more than 15K miles/yr).

Leasing them doesn't really make sense. Not only is the MSRP higher, but current lease rates for the 335d are pretty unattractive compared to the 335i and add significantly to the monthly payment, all other things being equal:

2010 BMW 335i Sedan
24 Month Residual 66% of MSRP .00180 Base Rate
36 Month Residual 60% of MSRP .00180 Base Rate

2010 BMW 335d Sedan
24 Month Residual 62% of MSRP .00245 Base Rate
36 Month Residual 54% of MSRP .00245 Base Rate

I'm actually surprised the residual is so much lower on the 335d. I know it's not really a valid comparison but if you were to look at resale values of full size pickups with diesels (eg Dodge w/ Cummins engine, GM Duramax, etc), they're all priced considerably higher than the gas models. Sure, they cost more to begin with, but they seem to depreciate less.

All this being said, I hope BMW continues to offer diesel-powered models in the US. Although I don't see myself in the market for a new car for several more years, I'm hoping by then that diesel at least remains an option. 425+ torque in a car the size of the E90 is quite intriguing!
I assume you mean by you need to pay cash for the d to make it out. Not really as the $4500 eco-credit + $900 tax credit on the d, you're already starting out ahead as my credit union is giving me 3.9% financing which is only 1% worse than what BMWNA will give you on the 335i. So you're already getting a cheaper car outright. Now leasing is a different game as BMW has decided to subsidize the lease rate on the 335i instead of offering a cash rebate. (maybe they need more CPO's in the future?)
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      01-26-2010, 03:21 PM   #34
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Residuals change, sometimes month to month, and they are not always correct, its a big guessing game...

Being that it is a somewhat "new" model, no previous 335d's in america, I believe BMWFS is just being a little "cautious" in its estimates for residual value. As diesels become more prominent in America (or should I say IF they become more prominent) I would expect the diesel to start holding its value BETTER than a comparable 335i.

Oh, and...

+3 on the manual transmission option. I realize there is a lot of clutch-busting torque, but c'mon, if you build it, they will sell!
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      01-26-2010, 03:43 PM   #35
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but the sound is a different thing....not bad,but it can`t be compared to a gasoline engine
I'll take a baritone note over a tenor note coming out of my exhaust any day of the week. I LOVE the sound of the d over the i, without question.
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      01-26-2010, 04:22 PM   #36
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I assume you mean by you need to pay cash for the d to make it out. Not really as the $4500 eco-credit + $900 tax credit on the d, you're already starting out ahead as my credit union is giving me 3.9% financing which is only 1% worse than what BMWNA will give you on the 335i. So you're already getting a cheaper car outright. Now leasing is a different game as BMW has decided to subsidize the lease rate on the 335i instead of offering a cash rebate. (maybe they need more CPO's in the future?)
I agree... I should have included "finance" along with "buy outright". The eco credit makes the 335d very cost competitive that way. But the current lease terms for the 335d absolutely suck. It doesn't make any financial sense to lease one. BMW is essentially saying, "We don't have a lot of long term confidence in this product. keep it! We don't want 'em back."

The other thing with diesel is the volatility of diesel fuel cost, which tends to fluctuate even more wildly than BMW's lease terms. If I recall, back in summer '08, diesel was selling for upwards of $5.25/gallon around here when 91 octane gas was about $4.25. There went most of the fuel efficiency cost benefit... I realize today is different, but if and when the economy starts to pick up again and diesel demand goes back up...
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      01-26-2010, 05:03 PM   #37
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I realize today is different, but if and when the economy starts to pick up again and diesel demand goes back up...
Then the diesel drivers will still be getting 600-700 miles to a tank, where the comparative petrol drivers will be getting 300-350. It all still works out.

It should also be noted that you have to account for an AT to AT comparison in your values.

BMW's set the residual lower on the 335d because they have no point of reference. It's that simple. They don't know how to residualize a car that has had no presence here thus far, so it's actually in their best interest (and the buyers, too) to go lower over higher. Worst case, they're right. Best case, you're in an equitable position when your lease is done, and it makes sense to buy it outright.

I will say that I bought mine over leasing it.
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      01-26-2010, 05:33 PM   #38
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Then the diesel drivers will still be getting 600-700 miles to a tank, where the comparative petrol drivers will be getting 300-350. It all still works out.
A 335d gets 600-700 miles per tank!? So you're saying it gets *double* the fuel economy of a 335i, meaning 42+ mpg in real world driving, against EPA estimates of 23/36. Forgive me if I raise my eyebrows just a little bit...
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      01-26-2010, 05:41 PM   #39
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The EPA has no point of reference on how to measure fuel economy on a diesel. Ask any 335d owner how good their gas mileage is.

I had a 328i (yes, I know..it's still not a 335i) before my 335d, and the BEST I got babying the car was 26MPG, and this is 95% highway. When I drove my d to Phoenix over the holiday, I arrived with over a half a tank left (my destination was 350 miles from my doorstep).

335d drivers routinely achieve above and beyond EPA numbers, primarily because the EPA STILL doesn't know how to effectively measure gas mileage at all.

I'd also suggest checking out EPA vs real on say..the Jetta TDI? Various reports support what I'm saying on not just the 335d, but on most diesels (trucks notwithstanding) available today.

Raise your eyebrows all you want, but public information backs me up (the MT article makes no real mention of the driving style used, and that does factor in, obviously).

Attaching where my car is at this tank. By the time I'm done, it'll be more than 600 miles, easily (traffic on the 15 was a bit rough this morning).
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      01-26-2010, 06:29 PM   #40
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Motortrend reported a 32mpg average over their 1300 mile trip, "without any special eco-driving". That corresponds with the 23/36 EPA estimates. It appears that much of this driving was done on the highway, which should help.

Why should the EPA's testing methodology for a diesel be any different than for a petrol-fired car? Won't they both be driven under the same conditions? Didn't the EPA just recently update their mileage tests to better reflect today's driving conditions? Their 17/26mpg estimate for the 335i is spot-on based on my driving habits (which return 21-22mpg in mixed conditions).
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      01-26-2010, 06:51 PM   #41
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General 335d Goodness

Hello folks - here are my 2 cents regarding the 335d

People don't choose a 335d over a 335i to "make money" or "save money" on total cost of car ownership. That being said, I don't know if there is a big difference in the overall cost of the car once you factor in that diesel engines tend to last longer than gasoline engines. Also if you bought the 335d late last year in the US, you enjoyed a nice $4,500 discount. Whatever difference remains is trivial in my opinion, especially when considering a $50K car. As far as the AdBlue - it has already been stated that it is free under maintenance and after that oz for oz, it is far cheaper than bottled water, or even gasoline. If you want to argue about minutiae like break even $ points on alternate fuel cars then I recommend you take up the Prius vs. stripped Corolla arguement and enjoy yourself with that.

Some people want a diesel because of the way it drives. The diesel has about 50% more torque than hp, which makes it a different driving experience than a gasoline BMW, most of which have roughly equal hp and torque, regardless of the overall 0-60 times, etc.

Some people buy a 335d to use less fuel - maybe they are concerned about greenhouse gasses, or maybe they are concerned about spending money on fuel, about half of which goes abroad, often to troubled parts of the world.

As far as mileage, I normally average in the low to mid 30s for a mixed driving tank of fuel. If I hot-rod around town, it will be in the high 20s. I can't imagine ever getting down to 23 MPG on a tank of diesel without racking up several speeding tickets in the process (or having the car impounded, even worse.) The best mileage I have ever achieved was 42 MPG on a pure highway trip on flat terrain - it was over a 100 mile trip.

Personally I am hoping for a 1 series manual with a diesel engine about 2/3 the size of the 335d. I think that would be a lot of fun to row through the gears with a bit of torque and stay under the speed limit, i.e. legally enjoy the car on a day-to-day basis. The DCT would be a welcome addition to the 335d as well - hopefully it will be added in a future model year.

Just a few ideas for folks to consider.
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      01-26-2010, 07:02 PM   #42
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Hello folks - here are my 2 cents regarding the 335d

People don't choose a 335d over a 335i to "make money" or "save money" on total cost of car ownership. That being said, I don't know if there is a big difference in the overall cost of the car once you factor in that diesel engines tend to last longer than gasoline engines. Also if you bought the 335d late last year in the US, you enjoyed a nice $4,500 discount. Whatever difference remains is trivial in my opinion, especially when considering a $50K car. As far as the AdBlue - it has already been stated that it is free under maintenance and after that oz for oz, it is far cheaper than bottled water, or even gasoline. If you want to argue about minutiae like break even $ points on alternate fuel cars then I recommend you take up the Prius vs. stripped Corolla arguement and enjoy yourself with that.

Some people want a diesel because of the way it drives. The diesel has about 50% more torque than hp, which makes it a different driving experience than a gasoline BMW, most of which have roughly equal hp and torque, regardless of the overall 0-60 times, etc.

Some people buy a 335d to use less fuel - maybe they are concerned about greenhouse gasses, or maybe they are concerned about spending money on fuel, about half of which goes abroad, often to troubled parts of the world.

As far as mileage, I normally average in the low to mid 30s for a mixed driving tank of fuel. If I hot-rod around town, it will be in the high 20s. I can't imagine ever getting down to 23 MPG on a tank of diesel without racking up several speeding tickets in the process (or having the car impounded, even worse.) The best mileage I have ever achieved was 42 MPG on a pure highway trip on flat terrain - it was over a 100 mile trip.

Personally I am hoping for a 1 series manual with a diesel engine about 2/3 the size of the 335d. I think that would be a lot of fun to row through the gears with a bit of torque and stay under the speed limit, i.e. legally enjoy the car on a day-to-day basis. The DCT would be a welcome addition to the 335d as well - hopefully it will be added in a future model year.

Just a few ideas for folks to consider.
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      01-26-2010, 07:15 PM   #43
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      01-26-2010, 08:51 PM   #44
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Quote:
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A 335d gets 600-700 miles per tank!? So you're saying it gets *double* the fuel economy of a 335i, meaning 42+ mpg in real world driving, against EPA estimates of 23/36. Forgive me if I raise my eyebrows just a little bit...
Tame those eyebrows......
As the proud owner of two 335d cars, I can tell you that I would be looking for the leak in the fuel system if I only got 36 mpg now that my '09 is broken-in. 550 miles between fuel-ups is the norm without the fuel light coming on.
I have put 34,000+ miles on my '09 "d" since July and I get 37 mpg or better for each tank of fuel.....yesterday, I got 38.7mpg for a 412 mile drive.
On the drive home from the BMW Performance Center, my new '10 "d" got 36.4 mpg and it was new with no miles.
The 335d is no M5 or M6.....it ain't supposed to be.
If Motor Trend wants to do a long term test....let'em ride with me for a few weeks.....if anyone thinks the 335d with a auto tranny is no fun....let'em ride with me for a few minutes.
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