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      04-03-2010, 05:14 PM   #177
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I just want to open peoples eyes as to the realities of the FMIC landscape and things to look for in regards to real data vs marketing hype... Interestingly enough i use a very good turbo outlet temp calculator that also generates a FMIC efficiency using data that is provided in this thread that answers your ?'s about starting and ending temps.

http://www.stealth316.com/2-turbotemp.htm

using this calculator with the provided data we can see how efficient each unit is in a real world situation and is all based in Physics Law(an exact science). heres the data i got using the calculator, feel free to try it yourself its actually very eye opening. When designing a FMIC I use this during prototyping to determine the best balance of internal fin density and charge row/ambient row height as we don't use an "off the shelf" core!

Turbo Outlet Temp Calculator

inlet temperature-(use the ambient temperature to standardize the test)

input pressure-14.5(atmospheric pressure this does not change unless you are at altitude)

output pressure-(this is the boost pressure seen prior to the fmic, add pressure drop plus datalogged pressure for this #)

compressor efficiency-70%(this can be found by mapping the #'s on a compressor map OR to datalog intercooler inlet temps, lets use 70% to standardize the testing as all are running similar boost levels)

Outlet Temp- (this is the temperature leaving the turbo and entering the FMIC)

Intercooler Outlet Temperature and Pressure Calculator


IC input Temperature-(this is the Outlet Temp from the previous calculation)

IC Efficiency-(This is the how efficient the FMIC is in this test, it is also the factor you play with to try and match up to the known plenum temp(ending datalogged ait at the end of the run))

IC Pressure loss-.5 (this is the pressure drop through the core, lets use .5 psi to standardize the test)

Ambient Temp-(this is the ambient temp and also the turbo inlet temp)

Plenum Temp-(this is the datalogged ait temp at the end of the 2-3-4 gear run)


now lets crunch the #'s...

HELIX-Intercooler Efficiency 86% through 3 gears
Turbo Outlet Temp Calculator
inlet temperature-85
input pressure-14.5
output pressure-14
compressor efficiency-70%
Outlet Temp- 249

Intercooler Outlet Temperature and Pressure Calculator
IC input Temperature-249
IC Pressure loss-.5
Ambient Temp-85
Plenum Temp-108
IC Efficiency-86%

AMS-Intercooler Efficiency 79% through 3 gears
Turbo Outlet Temp Calculator
inlet temperature-58
input pressure-14.5
output pressure-14
compressor efficiency-70%
Outlet Temp- 214

Intercooler Outlet Temperature and Pressure Calculator
IC input Temperature-214
IC Pressure loss-.5
Ambient Temp-58
Plenum Temp-112
IC Efficiency-79%

ETS-Intercooler Efficiency 78% through 3 gears
Turbo Outlet Temp Calculator
inlet temperature-58
input pressure-14.5
output pressure-14.5
compressor efficiency-70%
Outlet Temp- 213

Intercooler Outlet Temperature and Pressure Calculator
IC input Temperature-213
IC Pressure loss-.5
Ambient Temp-58
Plenum Temp-93
IC Efficiency-78%

SPEARCO/Code 3-Intercooler Efficiency 54% through 3 gears
Turbo Outlet Temp Calculator
inlet temperature-65
input pressure-14.5
output pressure-14
compressor efficiency-70%
Outlet Temp- 223

Intercooler Outlet Temperature and Pressure Calculator
IC input Temperature-223
IC Pressure loss-.5
Ambient Temp-65
Plenum Temp-139
IC Efficiency-54%

What this data shows is the efficency and also the FMICs ability to thwart heatsoak through 2-3-4 gears, you can also get single gear efficiencies using the data provided

Last edited by TurboBullett@Ambient Thermal Management; 05-05-2010 at 10:30 AM.
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      04-10-2010, 09:51 PM   #178
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someone with a HPF needs to get their data up!
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      04-10-2010, 11:50 PM   #179
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I'm waiting for my HPF to arrive. HPF and Helix should perform very similarly I would think....
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      04-11-2010, 03:38 AM   #180
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What about the CP-E One?
They recently released the Whitepapers on their new unit with integrated OC.
Maybe enough info to add it to the list?

I like the design and had a pretty good read on the Whitepapers
and its kinda cheap aswell....under 1k$ with OC..
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      04-12-2010, 05:31 PM   #181
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CPe white papers indicate 83pct. Maybe boom can do an
independent test
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      04-12-2010, 06:33 PM   #182
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I have the HPF but would need some time and a laptop that doesnt drop the COM port midway thru a log....
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      05-05-2010, 10:31 AM   #183
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C'mon guys its warm everywhere, we STILL need INDEPENDANT 2-3-4 gear datalogs from the following manufacturers FMICS:

-stock factory intercooler
-HPF
-AA
-RPI
-VK
-Stett
-forge
-Agency Power


please make sure the tests are done between 58-85 degree ambient temps and at a boost level of 13.5-14.5 psi so we can standardize the testing!

log boost, ait and rpm and note ambient temperature at time of test!
Quote:
Originally Posted by TTurboBullett View Post
I just want to open peoples eyes as to the realities of the FMIC landscape and things to look for in regards to real data vs marketing hype... Interestingly enough i use a very good turbo outlet temp calculator that also generates a FMIC efficiency using data that is provided in this thread that answers your ?'s about starting and ending temps.

http://www.stealth316.com/2-turbotemp.htm

using this calculator with the provided data we can see how efficient each unit is in a real world situation and is all based in Physics Law(an exact science). heres the data i got using the calculator, feel free to try it yourself its actually very eye opening. When designing a FMIC I use this during prototyping to determine the best balance of internal fin density and charge row/ambient row height as we don't use an "off the shelf" core!

Turbo Outlet Temp Calculator

inlet temperature-(use the ambient temperature to standardize the test)

input pressure-14.5(atmospheric pressure this does not change unless you are at altitude)

output pressure-(this is the boost pressure seen prior to the fmic, add pressure drop plus datalogged pressure for this #)

compressor efficiency-70%(this can be found by mapping the #'s on a compressor map OR to datalog intercooler inlet temps, lets use 70% to standardize the testing as all are running similar boost levels)

Outlet Temp- (this is the temperature leaving the turbo and entering the FMIC)

Intercooler Outlet Temperature and Pressure Calculator


IC input Temperature-(this is the Outlet Temp from the previous calculation)

IC Efficiency-(This is the how efficient the FMIC is in this test, it is also the factor you play with to try and match up to the known plenum temp(ending datalogged ait at the end of the run))

IC Pressure loss-.5 (this is the pressure drop through the core, lets use .5 psi to standardize the test)

Ambient Temp-(this is the ambient temp and also the turbo inlet temp)

Plenum Temp-(this is the datalogged ait temp at the end of the 2-3-4 gear run)


now lets crunch the #'s...

HELIX-Intercooler Efficiency 86% through 3 gears
Turbo Outlet Temp Calculator
inlet temperature-85
input pressure-14.5
output pressure-14
compressor efficiency-70%
Outlet Temp- 249

Intercooler Outlet Temperature and Pressure Calculator
IC input Temperature-249
IC Pressure loss-.5
Ambient Temp-85
Plenum Temp-108
IC Efficiency-86%

AMS-Intercooler Efficiency 79% through 3 gears
Turbo Outlet Temp Calculator
inlet temperature-58
input pressure-14.5
output pressure-14
compressor efficiency-70%
Outlet Temp- 214

Intercooler Outlet Temperature and Pressure Calculator
IC input Temperature-214
IC Pressure loss-.5
Ambient Temp-58
Plenum Temp-112
IC Efficiency-79%

ETS-Intercooler Efficiency 78% through 3 gears
Turbo Outlet Temp Calculator
inlet temperature-58
input pressure-14.5
output pressure-14.5
compressor efficiency-70%
Outlet Temp- 213

Intercooler Outlet Temperature and Pressure Calculator
IC input Temperature-213
IC Pressure loss-.5
Ambient Temp-58
Plenum Temp-93
IC Efficiency-78%

SPEARCO/Code 3-Intercooler Efficiency 54% through 3 gears
Turbo Outlet Temp Calculator
inlet temperature-65
input pressure-14.5
output pressure-14
compressor efficiency-70%
Outlet Temp- 223

Intercooler Outlet Temperature and Pressure Calculator
IC input Temperature-223
IC Pressure loss-.5
Ambient Temp-65
Plenum Temp-139
IC Efficiency-54%

What this data shows is the efficency and also the FMICs ability to thwart heatsoak through 2-3-4 gears, you can also get single gear efficiencies using the data provided
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      05-10-2010, 11:28 AM   #184
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Im torn btw the Helix and Cp-e, appears as though the efficiency is very close, I do like the idea of the added oil cooler with the cp-e
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      05-14-2010, 03:48 AM   #185
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Anyone with the VK? Price plus ease of installation seems out of this world. Love to see some logs with it.
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      05-14-2010, 05:38 PM   #186
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Can't wait for all the data, lol. Got anxious by reading this thread and I just bit the bullet and bought one from Mike@N54Tuning. I went with Helix, because sooo many people have them and are happy. I think that there are a lot of good ones here but I don't see other vendors or manufacturers chiming in like Bullett to provide some insightful data.
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      05-14-2010, 05:54 PM   #187
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I was torn between Helix and HPF, but Helix seems to be the winner!
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      05-14-2010, 08:26 PM   #188
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I would just like to verify the pressure drop between the inter coolers... I don't think that using a static .5 represents very much in terms of numbers. You can have a highly efficient cooler that causes a loss in power. Efficiency is only part of the equation, and it requires accurate input such as precise compressor efficiency, pressure drop and identical boost levels done on identical tunes/maps etc. I'm sure I could skew these results legitimately just choosing the tune and day and the way I run my test or where my probes are installed.
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      05-14-2010, 11:41 PM   #189
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lol these results are funny cause they are impossible. The helix has a 86% efficiency with a .5psi pressure drop. Yeaaa lol ok.

From the vendors post

turbo outlet temperature 228 degrees F(estimated using a 63 degree ambient and 65% compressor efficiency at 13.5 psi)
AIT temp- 75 degrees F - 54 degree drop over stock
pre and post intercooler temp drop- 153 degrees F
Intercooler efficiency- 93% - 33% improvement in efficiency over stock
Core pressure drop spec is .5psi at 450hp(600cfm) airflow

Can you explain how you estimated outlet temperature without rpm? Also please post compressor map you are using.
Like stated above 93% efficiency with .5 psi pressure drop is simply impossible

Last edited by Clap135; 05-14-2010 at 11:56 PM.
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      05-15-2010, 01:34 AM   #190
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oh snap
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      05-15-2010, 06:30 PM   #191
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Using this calculator and the data provided, which is totally fair an representative of all the independant fmic datalogs is how these intercooler efficiency %'s are figured out! What the numbers show are each intercoolers efficiency percentages at the end of a 2-3-4 gear run using the ending temp at the end of the run! Th compressor efficiency is calculated from data that has been posted on compressor outlet temperatures! As far as pressure drop our core specs are .5 psi pressure drop at 450hp flow, Shiv did a comparo between the helix and 2 other aftermarket fmics and even he was impressed how much better the helix was in comparison in regards to pressure drop and the ability to thwart heat soak... But why?

- the helix has 13 charge rows other fmics have 7-8
- helix has an ambient face 56% larger than stock, where some others are stock or slightly larger
-the exposed ambient face( the area exposed to air flow not under the plastic cowl is 70% larger than some competitors, many fmics make the face larger under the cowl not exposed to direct airflow!
- helix uses a custom core built specifically for this platform, we don't use an off the shelf core IE we are not stuck with what's available or what works!
-since we have 5-6 more charge rows we can use a much higher density fin pack without causing pressure drop issues.
-the mass of the helix fmic is the highest on the market this mass holds off heatsoak longer than a lighter fmic!

I hope this explains some things o
for you! We have sold over 200 fmics and everyone who has independently tested has datalogged this impossible data!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clap135 View Post
lol these results are funny cause they are impossible. The helix has a 86% efficiency with a .5psi pressure drop. Yeaaa lol. From the vendors post

turbo outlet temperature 228 degrees F(estimated using a 63 degree ambient and 65% compressor efficiency at 13.5 psi)
AIT temp- 75 degrees F - 54 degree drop over stock
pre and post intercooler temp drop- 153 degrees F
Intercooler efficiency- 93% - 33% improvement in efficiency over stock
Core pressure drop spec is .5psi at 450hp(600cfm) airflow

Can you explain how you estimated outlet temperature without rpm? Also please post compressor map you are using.
Like stated above 93% efficiency with .5 psi pressure drop is simply impossible
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      05-16-2010, 12:17 AM   #192
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So can you post the compressor map? Also wierd how you can estimate a outlet temp with out actual engine rpm, but your a vendor for helix so you're forgiven lol
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      05-16-2010, 07:01 AM   #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clap135 View Post
So can you post the compressor map? Also wierd how you can estimate a outlet temp with out actual engine rpm, but your a vendor for helix so you're forgiven lol
the outlet % is not estimated its taken from a datalogged outlet temp with rpm from a vendors post (this actual end outlet temp is how we come to the compressor efficiency and using the log you could actually map the compressor at that boost level) I dont know what beef you have with Helix, but all of these computations come from independant datalogs and are 100% fair and representative of each fmic at the end of a 2-3-4 gear run,all of these fmics are subject to the same criteria as much of it does not vary.) this calculator is based in the laws of physics and is unbiased and pretty damn accurate as well, the use of independant end user logs takes away any vendor BS... I see you are running CP-E stuff can you do some 2-3-4 gear testing? post all the data for everyone to see since there is no independant CPe data posted on this thread yet.

Last edited by TurboBullett@Ambient Thermal Management; 05-16-2010 at 07:08 AM.
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      05-16-2010, 08:29 AM   #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TTurboBullett View Post
the outlet % is not estimated its taken from a datalogged outlet temp with rpm from a vendors post (this actual end outlet temp is how we come to the compressor efficiency and using the log you could actually map the compressor at that boost level) I dont know what beef you have with Helix, but all of these computations come from independant datalogs and are 100% fair and representative of each fmic at the end of a 2-3-4 gear run,all of these fmics are subject to the same criteria as much of it does not vary.) this calculator is based in the laws of physics and is unbiased and pretty damn accurate as well, the use of independant end user logs takes away any vendor BS... I see you are running CP-E stuff can you do some 2-3-4 gear testing? post all the data for everyone to see since there is no independant CPe data posted on this thread yet.
can you post that information then? I simply would like to see it. I have no beef, I want you to prove your claims though. Me posting and 2nd-4th gear log won't show you anything because it won't show you outside temps, and it won't show you compressor temps.
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      05-16-2010, 10:26 AM   #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clap135 View Post
can you post that information then? I simply would like to see it. I have no beef, I want you to prove your claims though. Me posting and 2nd-4th gear log won't show you anything because it won't show you outside temps, and it won't show you compressor temps.
as the earlier threads state you notate ambient temps and boost levels the calculator does the rest, on another note all of the constants remain the same between manufacturers the inputs that change are taken directy from the logs using this calculator which follows the laws of physics give a very good idea as to how these units perform in the real world...so yes posting an independant datalog will show alot IE it will show the heatsoak trend across 3 gears in direct comparison to other FMICs, as you can see by the posted data some intercoolers fend off heat soak very well others not so good... I believe the graphs you are looking for are a few pages ago, one of the manufacturers posted actual compressor outlet temps across gears, using these numbers you can reverse calculate the compressor efficiency at any given rpm/boost point using the calculator. there is really no beef because the data is what it is its simple physics and if an intercooler doesn't perform as expected or as well as advertised take it up with the manufacturer... Personally id rather get all the independant data on the table and let the results speak for themselves, so end users and potential customers can make an educated decision NOT based on a sales pitch or buying a fmic cause xyz company made it so it must be good---look at the datalogs look at the heatsoak trends look and use the calculator using the data provided and come to your own conclusions.

BTW heres the pic of the compressor outlet temps:

Last edited by TurboBullett@Ambient Thermal Management; 05-16-2010 at 10:39 AM.
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      05-16-2010, 11:25 AM   #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TTurboBullett View Post
as the earlier threads state you notate ambient temps and boost levels the calculator does the rest, on another note all of the constants remain the same between manufacturers the inputs that change are taken directy from the logs using this calculator which follows the laws of physics give a very good idea as to how these units perform in the real world...so yes posting an independant datalog will show alot IE it will show the heatsoak trend across 3 gears in direct comparison to other FMICs, as you can see by the posted data some intercoolers fend off heat soak very well others not so good... I believe the graphs you are looking for are a few pages ago, one of the manufacturers posted actual compressor outlet temps across gears, using these numbers you can reverse calculate the compressor efficiency at any given rpm/boost point using the calculator. there is really no beef because the data is what it is its simple physics and if an intercooler doesn't perform as expected or as well as advertised take it up with the manufacturer... Personally id rather get all the independant data on the table and let the results speak for themselves, so end users and potential customers can make an educated decision NOT based on a sales pitch or buying a fmic cause xyz company made it so it must be good---look at the datalogs look at the heatsoak trends look and use the calculator using the data provided and come to your own conclusions.

BTW heres the pic of the compressor outlet temps:
is that ets fmic ?
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      05-16-2010, 12:04 PM   #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TTurboBullett View Post
as the earlier threads state you notate ambient temps and boost levels the calculator does the rest, on another note all of the constants remain the same between manufacturers the inputs that change are taken directy from the logs using this calculator which follows the laws of physics give a very good idea as to how these units perform in the real world...so yes posting an independant datalog will show alot IE it will show the heatsoak trend across 3 gears in direct comparison to other FMICs, as you can see by the posted data some intercoolers fend off heat soak very well others not so good... I believe the graphs you are looking for are a few pages ago, one of the manufacturers posted actual compressor outlet temps across gears, using these numbers you can reverse calculate the compressor efficiency at any given rpm/boost point using the calculator. there is really no beef because the data is what it is its simple physics and if an intercooler doesn't perform as expected or as well as advertised take it up with the manufacturer... Personally id rather get all the independant data on the table and let the results speak for themselves, so end users and potential customers can make an educated decision NOT based on a sales pitch or buying a fmic cause xyz company made it so it must be good---look at the datalogs look at the heatsoak trends look and use the calculator using the data provided and come to your own conclusions.

BTW heres the pic of the compressor outlet temps:

That's cute, but what does it have to do wth compressor maps and your inter cooler?
You are basing your entire argument on IAT'S which is sort of funny because IAT'S arn't the only important thing. Flow is another one, yours looks like lego blocks welded together. So once again, please show data for your inter cooler and these turbo efficiency numbers you came up with. Show the actual compressor map, show data showing your .5 psi drop, and then show the logs that show the IAT difference. Typing in arbitrary numbers into an online calculator isn't answering any of my questions.
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      05-16-2010, 05:41 PM   #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clap135 View Post
That's cute, but what does it have to do wth compressor maps and your inter cooler?
You are basing your entire argument on IAT'S which is sort of funny because IAT'S arn't the only important thing. Flow is another one, yours looks like lego blocks welded together. So once again, please show data for your inter cooler and these turbo efficiency numbers you came up with. Show the actual compressor map, show data showing your .5 psi drop, and then show the logs that show the IAT difference. Typing in arbitrary numbers into an online calculator isn't answering any of my questions.
+1.

According to Terry, it's not all about IAT numbers when testing an intercooler. Reference

Flow and pressure drop is also important. Increased flow allows for more boost than IAT's. Reference

According to the calculated efficiency results posted earlier (and if the data is indeed reliable), it appears three of the FMIC's so far perform relatively similarly (within 8%) in reducing IAT. However, I've been concerned about how well the Helix FMIC flows even with their updated design due to its stepped structure. Air does not turn well around sharp bends, especially around 90 degree angles, so there must be turbulence generated around this stepped area within the endtanks which will negatively affect overall flow.

Just based upon physical appearance, it seems the HPF and AMS should have the best flow within their endtanks, which are curved without sharp angles. I personally like the HPF endtanks the best...its curves look the smoothest for the least amount of air turbulence IMHO. Of course, the flow through the core is another important aspect, but this can't really be judged based on looks. We need testing and data for this.
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