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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > NA Engine (non-turbo) / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications > Three Stage Intake Manifold Conversion for 328/325



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      05-05-2010, 08:35 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfirocks View Post
How hard is the diy? because if i did this, i cant let the 'rents know..I would need to buy the stuff locally, and either install myself(17 y.o.) at a friends house, or pay a little extra to get it done..

But im SOOOOOO Down..lol!
Swapping an intake manifold is going to be a fairly time-consuming process. These engines are not designed to be home-mechanic-friendly, and quite a few parts are going to be laying on the driveway during the surgery. I could do this (in and out) in about 1.5 hours on my old 944 (when I was 17), but on a 325/328.. I would say I'm going to start on Saturday morning and pray everything is sorted by Sunday afternoon.

Also I would not DIY this project unless you have at least moderate wrenching experience.

GL!
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      05-05-2010, 08:38 AM   #90
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Can somebody clarify which adjuster (DISA Actuator) is for high revs and which for low revs.
This picture indicates that the adjuster on the front of the manifold is for high revs. Another thread indicates that the backside adjuster is for high revs.
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      05-05-2010, 08:39 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Spitfirocks View Post
How hard is the diy? because if i did this, i cant let the 'rents know..I would need to buy the stuff locally, and either install myself(17 y.o.) at a friends house, or pay a little extra to get it done..

But im SOOOOOO Down..lol!
uh you shouldn't do this.
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      05-05-2010, 09:09 AM   #92
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So we may be able to get into 335 territory? Lets say the odds are with us and with tune we get 275, we can add intake(which wont give much power) less restrictive exhaust, and say SS headers. Primary cat deletes is suppose to be 15whp, so maybe, just maybe...
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      05-05-2010, 09:17 AM   #93
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So we may be able to get into 335 territory? Lets say the odds are with us and with tune we get 275, we can add intake(which wont give much power) less restrictive exhaust, and say SS headers. Primary cat deletes is suppose to be 15whp, so maybe, just maybe...
The 335's are under-rated typically. It is just not going to happen. It will be noticeably short on torque compared to the 335.

Doesn't hurt to dream though!
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      05-05-2010, 09:23 AM   #94
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We definitely will not get near 335 territory. If the powerchips performance tune claims 275/233, at the wheels thats probably 230-240 whp and around 200wtq. There will also be a difference if you have xdrive/rwd or a Automatic/6MT. Someone correct me if i'm wrong. I'm sure deleting the cats and getting an intake will add a few ponies. But what does a stock 325i dyno at? I saw figures from 185-200whp, so an additional 30whp will definatley be felt.
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      05-05-2010, 09:25 AM   #95
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Well I already have a 330 but it's an XI. As much as I love the AWD, it's about 200lbs heavier than a non-XI.
You can get a BMS powerbox or have your 330 software flashed to get a few more hp and ft lbs of torque. BMS powerbox also adds throttle remap as well as 10 -ish hp and 10ish ft lbs of torque. Or look at active autowerks, powerchip,... but it is at least twice as much.

Sorry for my wording earlier, I didn't mean 330 hp, I meant 330 ecu flash to stock 330 software or to "tuned" 330 software. I should have been more clear about that.
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      05-05-2010, 09:49 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Classycali View Post
So we may be able to get into 335 territory? Lets say the odds are with us and with tune we get 275, we can add intake(which wont give much power) less restrictive exhaust, and say SS headers. Primary cat deletes is suppose to be 15whp, so maybe, just maybe...
With manifold, tune, and headers (probably $3-4k all in), you are looking at probably 290 at the crank, ~250whp. Stock 335s dyno 260-280whp, so we are still looking at about a 20whp deficit. We would have benefit of less weight (~200lb) and a more linear power curve. I think it would be close with a stock 335i. However, that leaves us maxed out for power, and at that point the 335 can add a chip for a few hundred bucks and forget about it.
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      05-05-2010, 10:52 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by IancoleTX View Post
With manifold, tune, and headers (probably $3-4k all in), you are looking at probably 290 at the crank, ~250whp. Stock 335s dyno 260-280whp, so we are still looking at about a 20whp deficit. We would have benefit of less weight (~200lb) and a more linear power curve. I think it would be close with a stock 335i. However, that leaves us maxed out for power, and at that point the 335 can add a chip for a few hundred bucks and forget about it.
All that money and still way down on torque compared to 335 and as you said they can put a juice box + or SSTT in for 100 - 200 dollars (used) and add 40 hp and 50 ft lbs. Just a little more $ and you can get a lot more HP and torque with a JB3 or procede.
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      05-05-2010, 11:19 AM   #98
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I have to chime in here. I see a lot of people haven't seen the other thread on this. I have 325i with the tune and manifold. It works but the tune is off slightly. I'm about 10-15 hp short of stock 330i territory but the exhaust is more restrictive and my car just cleared 128k miles. I've been trying really hard to get the software update Powerchip made for me buts it's been rather difficult. They keep saying they're busy, but all they have to do is email a file to a vendor in Los Gatos. But anyway, here's a link to my thread: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=372973

Oh and by the way, I had the tune loaded before the manifold was installed. It ran fine. It just had some weird gaps in power.
Thanks for the input.

The 128k miles attained on your vehicle is one cause of the loss in power.
Powerchips outdated software could be another cause, yet the engines are identical.

The exhaust is identical except for a more restrictive catalytic converter and muffler. I have a muffler delete which eliminates the latter from the equation.

330i horsepower is indeed attainable with this mod, with the right software.
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      05-05-2010, 11:46 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by lux.sh View Post
uh you shouldn't do this.
+1 I agree, unless you have a decent amount of mechanical skill. When I was your age I used to dissasemble and rebuild RB26DETT long-blocks back in the '90s so I have a lot of faith in todays youth; then again im not old.

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Originally Posted by Classycali View Post
So we may be able to get into 335 territory? Lets say the odds are with us and with tune we get 275, we can add intake(which wont give much power) less restrictive exhaust, and say SS headers. Primary cat deletes is suppose to be 15whp, so maybe, just maybe...
Horsepowerwise, yes it is attainable. If wintertunings 289hp is accurate, along with headers and cat deletes, you may be able to reach the 300hp mark.

Torquewise, no. Our cars suffer in the torque reigon. The tune gives us 235 lbft which is 65 of the 335s stock torque and will the rest of the modifications, leaves us with around 240-250, still greatly underpowered compared to a stock 335.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjfloyd1 View Post
The 335's are under-rated typically. It is just not going to happen. It will be noticeably short on torque compared to the 335.

Doesn't hurt to dream though!
Exactly. The car will still be suffiecient for fun and everyday driving.

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Originally Posted by PiZauL View Post
We definitely will not get near 335 territory. If the powerchips performance tune claims 275/233, at the wheels thats probably 230-240 whp and around 200wtq. There will also be a difference if you have xdrive/rwd or a Automatic/6MT. Someone correct me if i'm wrong. I'm sure deleting the cats and getting an intake will add a few ponies. But what does a stock 325i dyno at? I saw figures from 185-200whp, so an additional 30whp will definatley be felt.
We will reach 335 territory in terms of hp not torque if you plan on dumping on top of the manifold mod, as the manifold alone is not enough for 300hp. A tune, headers and catalytic converter delete would bring you near that figure but who knows how much that will cost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjfloyd1 View Post
You can get a BMS powerbox or have your 330 software flashed to get a few more hp and ft lbs of torque. BMS powerbox also adds throttle remap as well as 10 -ish hp and 10ish ft lbs of torque. Or look at active autowerks, powerchip,... but it is at least twice as much.

Sorry for my wording earlier, I didn't mean 330 hp, I meant 330 ecu flash to stock 330 software or to "tuned" 330 software. I should have been more clear about that.
The BMS is obsolete with the tune. Throttle response remapping on top of throttle response remapping makes the car become unpredictably edgy. The horsepower gains are about 3-4 which isnt much.

That said, im not positive so someone should try this and confirm/deny.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IancoleTX View Post
With manifold, tune, and headers (probably $3-4k all in), you are looking at probably 290 at the crank, ~250whp. Stock 335s dyno 260-280whp, so we are still looking at about a 20whp deficit. We would have benefit of less weight (~200lb) and a more linear power curve. I think it would be close with a stock 335i. However, that leaves us maxed out for power, and at that point the 335 can add a chip for a few hundred bucks and forget about it.
Correct.

Let me clarify. For the money that will be spent naturally aspirating it to a 335i level could be spent on a supercharger which will allow you to feed off of 335s, yet this isnt what this thread is about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjfloyd1 View Post
All that money and still way down on torque compared to 335 and as you said they can put a juice box + or SSTT in for 100 - 200 dollars (used) and add 40 hp and 50 ft lbs. Just a little more $ and you can get a lot more HP and torque with a JB3 or procede.
Correct, they have cheap power gains.



Let me clarify. You will feel greater acceleration than normal because of our short gears and final drive ratio.

If you are looking for 335 power, supercharge it or trade it in. If you want modest, decent power, this mod is for you. N52 are not easy to squeeze power out of.
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      05-05-2010, 02:54 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjfloyd1 View Post
You can get a BMS powerbox or have your 330 software flashed to get a few more hp and ft lbs of torque. BMS powerbox also adds throttle remap as well as 10 -ish hp and 10ish ft lbs of torque. Or look at active autowerks, powerchip,... but it is at least twice as much.

Sorry for my wording earlier, I didn't mean 330 hp, I meant 330 ecu flash to stock 330 software or to "tuned" 330 software. I should have been more clear about that.
I was talking about what he should do with his 330 not about adding to a tune with a powerbox. He can either get it tuned with an ecu flash OR get a powerbox.
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      05-05-2010, 07:28 PM   #101
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I was talking about what he should do with his 330 not about adding to a tune with a powerbox. He can either get it tuned with an ecu flash OR get a powerbox.
Correct, Got it.
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      05-05-2010, 08:16 PM   #102
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Updated with pics of the manifold, thanks to Second325
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      05-05-2010, 09:19 PM   #103
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Updated with pics of the manifold, thanks to Second325
Nice.. that actually looks pretty straightforward.
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      05-05-2010, 10:38 PM   #104
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after looking at the actual picture of the manifold... Im going to just find a shop and have them do the swap for me...
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      05-06-2010, 01:07 AM   #105
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Has it been confirmed that this will the actuator motors function on a 328i w/o a tune? I know it has been confirmed for a 325i but didn't see anything about the 328i.
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      05-06-2010, 09:21 PM   #106
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So can I just quickly summarize a few keypoints, and maybe reiterate some of the issues that are still present at this stage?

I am just getting a little overwhelmed with the sudden activity on the forums... I know there's also that new CHIP currently in development which is promising some gains thorugh valvetronic tuning.

1. We know the 3-Stage Intake Manifold Swap works. It's good for 330 level power.

2. It can be installed without any additional changes to the ECU for a small gain. The stock ECU has the programming to work the adjusters, but not the appropriate mapping to take advantage of the new airflow.

Issues:

1. There is still no clear programming solution. Marcello has used the Powerchip tune, but continues to have issues with throttle lag that have yet to be resolved.

2. We have not seen the mod done yet with any other forms of ECU tuning.

3. We have no way of knowing how products like the Sprintbooster or the PBX might react with the ECU tuning. For all we know something like that might solve Marcello's throttle lag issue.

4. I'm still not sure where we stand with this mod for 328i owners. A lot of talk, but no one has come forward citing a sucessul 328 swapover.

5. There is another ECU tuning option that those of us considering this mod should be keeping an eye. The thread started by Craven 328 discusses the development of a system that takes advantage of valvetronic tuning to draw more power out of our engines. I got a response from Craven as I was writing this which I'll share:
"This tune is not a piggyback like the BMS, it completely changes the ECU coding.

It can be fully optimized for the 3 stage manifold, much smoother then the powerchips tune, i know that for a fact.

So you would still have a 325 ECU, but it would be coded to support the manifold so a 330 at heart, but with a 325 VIN tag."

On top of this I imagine we will see gains based on the valvetronic tuning as well.



All in all very exciting times for us E90 owners.
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      05-06-2010, 09:36 PM   #107
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I'm liking point 5.
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      05-06-2010, 10:12 PM   #108
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Marcelo, I think you should talk to these guys about testing..
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      05-08-2010, 11:10 AM   #109
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All in all very exciting times for us E90 owners.
no kidding, i just bought my 325i last september, and there was not much to do to improve the engine at the time, then bms powerbox came out, and now i don't know what to do....guess i'll wait a bit to see what the final verdict is on the new tune + the manifold swap
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      05-08-2010, 06:46 PM   #110
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Next Saturday will be a very interesing day.
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