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      05-05-2010, 05:43 PM   #1
AltecBX
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Octane Level & Ignition Correction Level

I've been searching around the forums and know that methanol increases octane level. Our 335 fuel tank holds a total of 16.1 gal. People that fill their tanks with 91 octane say that the level of octane will be 103 when injecting methanol while they drive. Same thing with people that fill with 93 oct, they state that they have levels of 105-108 octane. Guys running methanol can drop ignition correction to 0%. People can run these settings and use up 4 quarts of methanol with a full 16 gal tank of gas driving aggressively.

I know the more 100 octane you add to your gas tank, the better. My question is how much 100 octane fuel gallons is necessary to bring down the Ign Correction to 0% as well without using methanol. (93 octane right is $3.29 a gal & $7.99 for 100 oct. Basically, how much gallons of 100 oct do I mix to 93 oct to match that of methanol.
So with a meth setup driving aggressively the whole time per tank, you’ll be paying $52.64 (16 gal x 3.29) and $10.20 for methanol. A total of $62.84 will be spent to drive a tank of gas running 0% of ignition correction.

What’s the minimum amount of 100 octane to mix with 93 oct to get 0% ign correction running just as good as methanol injection?
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      05-05-2010, 05:47 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AltecBX View Post
I've been searching around the forums and know that methanol increases octane level. Our 335 fuel tank holds a total of 16.1 gal. People that fill their tanks with 91 octane say that the level of octane will be 103 when injecting methanol while they drive. Same thing with people that fill with 93 oct, they state that they have levels of 105-108 octane. Guys running methanol can drop ignition correction to 0%. People can run these settings and use up 4 quarts of methanol with a full 16 gal tank of gas driving aggressively.

I know the more 100 octane you add to your gas tank, the better. My question is how much 100 octane fuel gallons is necessary to bring down the Ign Correction to 0% as well without using methanol. (93 octane right is $3.29 a gal & $7.99 for 100 oct. Basically, how much gallons of 100 oct do I mix to 93 oct to match that of methanol.
So with a meth setup driving aggressively the whole time per tank, you’ll be paying $52.64 (16 gal x 3.29) and $10.20 for methanol. A total of $62.84 will be spent to drive a tank of gas running 0% of ignition correction.

What’s the minimum amount of 100 octane to mix with 93 oct to get 0% ign correction running just as good as methanol injection?
It depends on your boost level but at say 16psi with mods normally 100 octane is enough to max out timing. Race gas has a hard time matching meth+pump performance due to the added cooling benefits of the methanol. On the other hand race gas is much easier to install and remove.

Mike
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      05-05-2010, 06:19 PM   #3
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If anyone drives that agressively to be above a meth trigger of 7-8PSI frequently, good luck keeping your driving license. I just reduced my tank size from 4qt to 3qt and I will still have a hard time using the meth before it degrades. I also bought a nice siphon pump so I can pump it out of the meth tank in the trunk and back into a sealed container when I am not driving the car frequently.

1 gallon of methanol for me is about $4.85, you have 4qts listed as $10.20. That is a rip off!

If you read other forums, there are plenty of people that believe meth injection will only add a couple of octane points not 7-15. Of course there are meth injection retailers that will tell you 8-20 points. The cooling is the biggest benefit, if it is 85f outside and I can have IAT's at 82f WOT, when I used to hit 160f with the stock intercooler it's a huge difference.

You should also consider the water portion of the methanol mix in your cost calculation. At 75/25 a gallon of meth mix would be $3.63 cents for the meth and maybe another 45 cents for a quart of distilled water for a total of $4.08 cents for 4qts of meth mix.

I can do multiple 3rd gear pulls and see my 3qt meth tank move less than 1 inch down. 99% of driving is spent below my meth trigger level which is between 7-8 PSI.

http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.c...icle_info.html

One thing for certain is meth/water is of extreme benefit on the n54. I'm glad I did it!
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Last edited by scottp999; 05-05-2010 at 06:51 PM.
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      05-05-2010, 07:10 PM   #4
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Quote:
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One thing for certain is meth/water is of extreme benefit on the n54.
+1

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      05-05-2010, 07:19 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottp999 View Post
If anyone drives that agressively to be above a meth trigger of 7-8PSI frequently, good luck keeping your driving license. I just reduced my tank size from 4qt to 3qt and I will still have a hard time using the meth before it degrades. I also bought a nice siphon pump so I can pump it out of the meth tank in the trunk and back into a sealed container when I am not driving the car frequently.

1 gallon of methanol for me is about $4.85, you have 4qts listed as $10.20. That is a rip off!

If you read other forums, there are plenty of people that believe meth injection will only add a couple of octane points not 7-15. Of course there are meth injection retailers that will tell you 8-20 points. The cooling is the biggest benefit, if it is 85f outside and I can have IAT's at 82f WOT, when I used to hit 160f with the stock intercooler it's a huge difference.

You should also consider the water portion of the methanol mix in your cost calculation. At 75/25 a gallon of meth mix would be $3.63 cents for the meth and maybe another 45 cents for a quart of distilled water for a total of $4.08 cents for 4qts of meth mix.

I can do multiple 3rd gear pulls and see my 3qt meth tank move less than 1 inch down. 99% of driving is spent below my meth trigger level which is between 7-8 PSI.

http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.c...icle_info.html

One thing for certain is meth/water is of extreme benefit on the n54. I'm glad I did it!
+1

I'd like to know, if possible, with say 94 pump and a 50/50 meth/water mix what octane level is the engine seeing? Can this be calculated in any way given direct injection pump pressure and meth/water pump pressure/volume.
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      05-05-2010, 07:22 PM   #6
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wow, 7.99/gallon for 100. I paid 5.99/gallon here in colorado a couple weeks ago for our Bandimere day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AltecBX View Post
I've been searching around the forums and know that methanol increases octane level. Our 335 fuel tank holds a total of 16.1 gal. People that fill their tanks with 91 octane say that the level of octane will be 103 when injecting methanol while they drive. Same thing with people that fill with 93 oct, they state that they have levels of 105-108 octane. Guys running methanol can drop ignition correction to 0%. People can run these settings and use up 4 quarts of methanol with a full 16 gal tank of gas driving aggressively.

I know the more 100 octane you add to your gas tank, the better. My question is how much 100 octane fuel gallons is necessary to bring down the Ign Correction to 0% as well without using methanol. (93 octane right is $3.29 a gal & $7.99 for 100 oct. Basically, how much gallons of 100 oct do I mix to 93 oct to match that of methanol.
So with a meth setup driving aggressively the whole time per tank, you’ll be paying $52.64 (16 gal x 3.29) and $10.20 for methanol. A total of $62.84 will be spent to drive a tank of gas running 0% of ignition correction.

What’s the minimum amount of 100 octane to mix with 93 oct to get 0% ign correction running just as good as methanol injection?
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      05-05-2010, 07:39 PM   #7
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AMAZING article on this topic:

http://www.labontemotorsports.com/ontrack/WM101.pdf

With a 50/50 mix (basically not overdoing it and just plainly using windshield washer fluid) we're raising the octane level by 25%!!

So whether 91/94 pump is being used you're at 114-117 octane when meth is flowing. I'm not putting the 94 pump in my car anymore, 91+50/50 meth is 114. On top of that 91 shell is 0% ethanol while 94 is up to 10% ethanol and there's quite a large amount of evidence ethanol+our HPFPs don't go well together..

I'm happy thanks Altec for making me Google
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      05-06-2010, 12:38 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
It depends on your boost level but at say 16psi with mods normally 100 octane is enough to max out timing. Race gas has a hard time matching meth+pump performance due to the added cooling benefits of the methanol. On the other hand race gas is much easier to install and remove.
Mike
So basically this will be limited to the amount of boost psi I'll be making. Is there a chart or reference that I can go by to know what octane level I can go by to max out timing? For example if I'm just running a max boost of 15psi, I don't want to fill up 16 gal of 100 octane, as its to expensive and I'll be wasting extra fuel at low engine loads. I'm looking for a ratio of 100 octane(expensive) that I can mix with 93(cheaper) to max out timing to 0% and run fine with no knock at a peak boost psi level we set our engine management too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scottp999 View Post
If anyone drives that agressively to be above a meth trigger of 7-8PSI frequently, good luck keeping your driving license. I just reduced my tank size from 4qt to 3qt and I will still have a hard time using the meth before it degrades. I also bought a nice siphon pump so I can pump it out of the meth tank in the trunk and back into a sealed container when I am not driving the car frequently.

1 gallon of methanol for me is about $4.85, you have 4qts listed as $10.20. That is a rip off!

If you read other forums, there are plenty of people that believe meth injection will only add a couple of octane points not 7-15. Of course there are meth injection retailers that will tell you 8-20 points. The cooling is the biggest benefit, if it is 85f outside and I can have IAT's at 82f WOT, when I used to hit 160f with the stock intercooler it's a huge difference.

You should also consider the water portion of the methanol mix in your cost calculation. At 75/25 a gallon of meth mix would be $3.63 cents for the meth and maybe another 45 cents for a quart of distilled water for a total of $4.08 cents for 4qts of meth mix.

I can do multiple 3rd gear pulls and see my 3qt meth tank move less than 1 inch down. 99% of driving is spent below my meth trigger level which is between 7-8 PSI.

http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.c...icle_info.html

One thing for certain is meth/water is of extreme benefit on the n54. I'm glad I did it!
The way I came to these calculation was take 4 gal of Boost Juice(1 gal will be $8) and add a bottle of yellow HEET ($.2.20) giving me a total of $10.20 per gal of methanol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by forza1976 View Post
wow, 7.99/gallon for 100. I paid 5.99/gallon here in colorado a couple weeks ago for our Bandimere day.
Is the one near the NY/NJ area to get that kind of octane race gas. (Sunoco on Route 46 East in Fortlee)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dzenno View Post
AMAZING article on this topic:

http://www.labontemotorsports.com/ontrack/WM101.pdf

With a 50/50 mix (basically not overdoing it and just plainly using windshield washer fluid) we're raising the octane level by 25%!!

So whether 91/94 pump is being used you're at 114-117 octane when meth is flowing. I'm not putting the 94 pump in my car anymore, 91+50/50 meth is 114. On top of that 91 shell is 0% ethanol while 94 is up to 10% ethanol and there's quite a large amount of evidence ethanol+our HPFPs don't go well together..

I'm happy thanks Altec for making me Google
Very knowledgeable PDF file. Thanks for the read.
Chemical / RON / MON
(The octane number you see in the US is [RON + MON]/2)
So if Methanol is 133 / 105 that will equal a octane level of 119.
A 25% increase of 93 pump gas will equal to 116 and 91 pump gas to 113.
If you just need say 100 octane for 15psi, wouldn't using 87 pump gas plus methanol make an already 108 octane level?
The article also mention that window windshield fluid is a mixture of water and methanol. Can you use Prestone De-Icer which has a effective temp of -34° F?



Thanks for all your help
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      05-06-2010, 12:45 AM   #9
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I use a winter ww fluid brand called Turbo Power rated for -40C. De-icer stuff isn't good as in a lot of cases contains glycol (antifreeze) and that's bad for the engine.

Rule of thumb, blue winter windshield washer fluid rated for -40C. Once you find one go online and google it's MSDS sheet. All chem manufacturers publish these by law and they indicate ingredients (chem brakedown).

Turbo Power one has 45-50 meth, 50-55 water, <1% other..I'm running that at 0% ign correction and 80% UT with no timing dropouts
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      05-06-2010, 06:51 AM   #10
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I have 2 cases of boost juice in the garage. I ordered it before I found a local source to get the VP M1 meth. Go to the vpracingfuels.com web site, find the headquarters for your regqion and email them to get the contact info for local distributors. I did this and had 2 within 10 minutes from my house. Go pick up a 5 gallon fuel container from any autoparts store, or order one from VP's web site, drive over to one of the VP distributors and have them fill up your container from a 54 gallon barrel they have on hand, and you will have meth for much less $ going forward.
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      05-06-2010, 07:36 AM   #11
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Yup the one in Fortlee is 7.99/gallon.
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      05-06-2010, 08:32 AM   #12
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There is also a gas station on route 23 southbound side near butler that sells 100oct at the pump. It's by G&A's if anyone is wondering.

Based on my experience running 100 octane ontop of just meth/93 does give a little more timing increase at 17-18psi, but oddly enough I trapped higher on just 93/meth than 100/meth

here are the two logs
12.3 @ 116.9 dci/procede/chargepipe/do10 93 octane 100% meth


And the 12.4 at 116.1 on 100octane/ 100% meth
[/IMG]

As you can see the overall timing is a little higher, esp 3rd gear on the 100/meth run, however I was have traction issues that day which might have lead to the lower trap/et.
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