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      06-04-2010, 03:00 PM   #1
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JBL MS-8 Processor Integration Thread

For those of you who have not hear about this unit, take a look here: http://signature.crutchfield.com/s_1...ssi=0&tp=27863. I've got a unit in the mail and am currently planning my system around it. Not sure yet how I'm gonna do it but I'll probably start like this:

- Channels 1 & 2: Focal 100 KP in front doors with Focal x-over
- Channel 3: OEM center mid with L7 tweeter added
- Channels 4 & 5: OEM woofers under seats
- Channels 6 & 7: OEM Rear Deck speakers (which I think already have tweeters)

All this off of the internal amp. It is only 18W per channel but should be enough to create enough volume for this purpose. I want to run it like that in order for me to determine whether or not I like the Logic 7 surround sound "magic" this unit is supposed to create (I have never been a big fan of rear fill or surround sound so we'll see). Then I will probably disconnect the rears and only run the front stage for a while. I believe I will like this better but you never know...

After that I will decide on how many channels I will run and how many more amps (if any) I need to buy. I will also consider running the front stage active. There are just so many scenarios you can end up with it is scary to think how much money I will burn in the process of finding the perfect set-up.

Anyway, this thread should be used for forum members who have already used this unit (or heard it in somebody else's car) to share their experiences so that we all can learn from it and hopefully help us make easier (and less costly) decisions in the end.

I will post my findings shortly and I encourage anyone else to do the same. I will update the OP from time to time with system configurations posted in this thread.

<<<<<< updated info >>>>>>>>

System Configuration #1a by kaigoss69:
- Channels 1 & 2: OEM L7 door speakers (4"midrange and 1" tweeter)
- Channels 3 & 4: OEM woofers under seats
- Channel 5: OEM L7 center 4" midrange with 1" L7 tweeter added
- Channels 6 & 7: OEM Rear Deck speakers
- Amplification: MS-8 internal amp for all 7 channels
- Comments: Tonality & imaging the best I ever heard in my car. Underseat woofers do not have enough volume to keep up with rest of system.

System Configuration #1b by kaigoss69:
- Channels 1 & 2: OEM L7 door speakers (4"midrange and 1" tweeter)
- Channels 3 & 4: OEM woofers under seats
- Channel 5: OEM L7 center 4" midrange with 1" L7 tweeter added
- Channels 6 & 7: OEM Rear Deck speakers & Rear side speakers in parallel
- Amplification: MS-8 internal amp for channels 1, 2, 5 - 7. Ch 3 & 4 externally amp'ed with 150W/Ch.
- Comments: Tonality & imaging same as above. A sense of more "spaciousness" during certain recordings. Underseat woofers keep up with rest of system, but need to be high-passed at about 50Hz. Overall volume level of MS-8 amp'ed channels seems to have increased after adding amp to underseat woofers.

System Configuration #1c by kaigoss69:
- Channels 1 & 2: OEM L7 door speakers (4" midrange and 1" tweeter)
- Channels 3 & 4: Morel CW-8 woofers under seats
- Channel 5: OEM L7 center 4" midrange with 1" L7 tweeter added
- Channels 6 & 7: OEM Rear Deck speakers & Rear side speakers in parallel
- Amplification: MS-8 internal amp for channels 1, 2, 5 - 7. Ch 3 & 4 externally amp'ed with 150W/Ch.
- Comments: Definitely a step up from the OEM woofers. Midbass is more defined and a little tighter. High-pass is set at 40Hz for now and they get plenty loud all the way down. I will have to wait until they fully break in and I will try lowering the high pass to 30Hz.

System Configuration #1d by kaigoss69:
- Channels 1 & 2: Hybrid Audio Legatia L3SE in stock 4" locations
- Channels 3 & 4: Morel CW-8 woofers under seats
- Channel 5: Hybrid Audio Legatia L3SE
- Channels 6 & 7: OEM Rear Deck speakers & Rear side speakers in parallel
- Amplification: MS-8 internal amp for channels 6 & 7. Ch 1, 2 & 5 externally amp'ed with 120W/Ch. Ch 3 & 4 externally amp'ed with 150W/Ch. Trunk subwoofer externally amped with 300W x 1.
- Comments: The absolute best the car has ever sounded. CH1, 2 & 3 crossed over 160Hz, 18dB/oct. For best midbass performance from underseats, calibration was run without trunk sub. Trunk sub was then added back in post calibration and crossed over at the 4-ch amp, 50Hz 24db/oct hi-pass and 55Hz 12dB/oct low-pass. SCHWEEEEET!

System Configuration #2 by mathematics:
- Ch 1 & 2: Dynaudio MD102s (sails)
- Ch 3 & 4: Dynaudio MW152's (stock door location)
- Ch 5 & 6: Dynaudio MW172's (kick panels)
- Ch 7: Dynaudio Esotar 1200 (ski pass IB mount)
- Amplification: Powered by twin Tru Billet 4100's
- Comments:

System configuration #3 by Technic:
Front: Morel Hybrid Ovation
Rear/sides/center: OEM Individual Audio
Underseat: Kicker SSMB8
Trunk sub: ID10 (VP Electricity corner enclosure)
Amps: PDX-5 and PDX 4.150 (8-channels used out of 9 total)

<<<<<< UPDATE: Video of How to Set Up MS-8 >>>>>>>>




<<<<<< Video of Calibration >>>>>>>>




By popular demand: My Current System Layout:
Attached Images
File Type: pdf MS-8 System Layout.pdf (279.1 KB, 253 views)

Last edited by kaigoss69; 06-06-2013 at 04:17 PM.
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      06-04-2010, 07:30 PM   #2
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I'm planning in the future on installing this in a 2010 E90 with the base 6 speaker stereo, so it will be interesting reading your posts. From what I've found out so far, you should check into the harness made by Technic to connect everything.
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      06-04-2010, 07:53 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacar View Post
I'm planning in the future on installing this in a 2010 E90 with the base 6 speaker stereo, so it will be interesting reading your posts. From what I've found out so far, you should check into the harness made by Technic to connect everything.
Way ahead of you, buddy! Technic's harness is the bomb.
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      06-06-2010, 11:54 AM   #4
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This will be interesting... I've been doing the same thing (mapping it all out). I currently have a system which is all active except for the tweeter HP on the R doors, which I rarely use.

But since the MS-8 seems to be capable of correcting phase and time anomalies as a subset of a channel, rather than simply the entire channel (Imprint should be too, but I don't know if it is...) that means I *could* go back to passives on the front doors.

Since the E9x have the same path lengths from the RF mid and tweet and the LF mid and tweet, the only added phase delays other than those occurring within the driver motor and piston itself) are created by the passive filters, but those aren't negligible. Since the MS-8 corrects those, going with passives should be fine.

I am also gonna have to order the center channel trim. I have an Integra 4 to use up there. Is there a tweeter next to the mid up there?

So I've been thinking of running (DELETED four) three Arc Minis:

Mini 4 on the front and rear doors

Mini 4 bridged stereo on the underseats

Mini Sub on the trunk sub

An MS8 plus those should work pretty well... and the Class G/H amps (can never keep those straight, know it's only one, can't remember which) will still sound better than Class D and draw a hella less current than my three Zapcos at present. I like the idea of that much dynamic headroom.

I've had bad experiences with deck power ICs and passive xovers with inductors in them (second order filters and up). I know the TSX "amp" (which is two deck power ICs) did NOT like passive crossovers more complex than a series capacitor. I think that the parallel inductor "looks" like a short to some of those ICs.
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      06-06-2010, 07:52 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VP Electricity View Post
But since the MS-8 seems to be capable of correcting phase and time anomalies as a subset of a channel, rather than simply the entire channel (Imprint should be too, but I don't know if it is...) that means I *could* go back to passives on the front doors.
This would be awesome, but I'm having trouble confirming it. I tried looking in the big thread on DIYMA, but I can't find it. Can you point me in the right direction?

Thanks!
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      06-07-2010, 12:09 AM   #6
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Some time ago I took every thing Andy said about the MS-8 and pasted it into a Word doc.

I'm not cosigning below, I'm quoting Andy from that doc.


Quote:
I can do a better job than MS-8 but in order to do it I need lots of bands of parametric EQ (currently I have 176 biquads available for eq and crossover), time alignment, phase shifting parametric all pass filters...
Quote:
Let's make this easy and say a biquad is a filter that can be configured to be a high pass of just about any alignment; low pass of just about any alignment, parametric EQ of nearly any frequency, gain and Q; notch, high shelf; low shelf or phase shift. The MS-8 assigns the filter type and values (frequency, Q and gain) based on the measurements it makes and the algorithm (predefined process or set of instructions for making decisions written as code) that determines how the decision will be made. So, for the purposes of this discussion, MS-8 has 8 opportunities per channel to implement something that does part of the job of fixing the channel's response. The details of how it makes the decisions are proprietary, patented and too difficult for me to try to explain.
Quote:
With MS-8, there's little benefit in separate channels for tweeters. The ease of crossover adjustability in tuning is moot--since you're not tuning and time alignment is unnecessary up there.... Our ears aren't good at determining the location of sounds from 1k to 3k, and above 3k, level is the most important criterion. This arrangement provides accurate delay measurements and settings for the midbass and will fix the mids and tweeters using EQ.
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      06-07-2010, 12:13 AM   #7
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in case anyone wants to read it (it's way easier than the DIYMA thread), see attached.
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File Type: pdf JBL_MS_8_tips_.pdf (49.4 KB, 1773 views)
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      06-07-2010, 01:11 AM   #8
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Thanks VP, that's good stuff!

I did find this quote in the PDF you uploaded:
Quote:
It doesn't EQ phase separately from frequency magnitude, but in my experience, that isn't necessary so long as
you have a center channel and a matrix or some other center signal extraction method or time alignment. MS-8 has both.
This makes it sound like the MS-8 isn't actually making phase-centric corrections, but they haven't had a reason to. Your quote about time alignment above 3k is extremely relevant as well, since that's where most component sets are going to be crossing over in these cars.

I've been trying to develop my plan so I can start "phase 1" and here's what I'm thinking at the moment:
Speakers:
Front - Rainbow SLC 210.25 NG
Underseat - Stock HiFi
Rear - Stock HiFi
Sub - JL Audio 10" W6v2

Amps:
JL Audio XD600/6 (Front, Rear, Underseat)
MTX class D (Sub - I have it handy from my last car)

DSP:
JBL MS-8 (Of course!!)

I'm a little nervous about running the OEM speakers off an aftermarket amp, but I read somewhere that the stock HiFi amp has some terrible distortion and I'm also not sure how well it would like being on the receiving end of the MS-8.

In this case phase 1 would be the front speakers and the JL amp, probably leaving OEM speakers on OEM amp for now.

Last edited by Sirrus; 06-07-2010 at 01:11 AM. Reason: Wierd spacing
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      06-07-2010, 11:04 AM   #9
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Yes, I saw that too. Andy seems to have been slightly inconsistent here. My interpretation of his comments is, "The HW is capable of it, but with the algorithm we created, it probably won't do it on a front mid/tweet set, because we don't think it's that important".
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      06-12-2010, 07:29 AM   #10
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Anyone install the MS-8 in a 335 yet??? - I am struggling to find a good place to put it. I was originally going to place it under the trunk floor, but the unit is just a tad too high and the lid won't close correctly (the grip handle "casing" underneath the trunk floor lid sits on the the MS-8 and it is not possible to position the unit in any way to clear that casing). Thinking about having to order the CD Changer side panel now...
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      06-12-2010, 07:34 AM   #11
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Will it fit under the left rear panel? Where the factory amp would be on the old HiFi.
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      06-12-2010, 08:14 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e90TiAg335i View Post
Will it fit under the left rear panel? Where the factory amp would be on the old HiFi.
That's where my L7 amp is...

But I doubt it would fit there for those with no L7 as I have only seen Alpine PDX installed there and the PDX is quite a bit smaller than the MS-8.
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      06-19-2010, 07:52 AM   #13
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Any other ideas on MS-8 installation locations. If I order the CD changer trim panel, what size is the raised storage compartment? Will the MS-8 fit there?
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      06-19-2010, 10:24 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
Any other ideas on MS-8 installation locations. If I order the CD changer trim panel, what size is the raised storage compartment? Will the MS-8 fit there?
It should fit where the OEM amp is, it is only 1 3/8" longer than the PDX (11.5"), and there's more than enough space in that area for almost 13" in length. The rest of the dimensions are similar between the two.

It will definitely fit in the CD Changer trim.
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      06-19-2010, 02:03 PM   #15
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remember to unplug the mics afterwards!

So you have to be able to reach the cable.
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      06-21-2010, 08:29 PM   #16
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I will be doing the installation in baby steps. First thing I did today was to add a tweeter to the center channel since JBL highly recommends a full range center channel. I shamelessly stole one of the rear deck tweets out of my old car (330i w/ L7) and installed it in the air duct just to the left of the midrange driver. Even though the L7 tweeters are relatively low profile, there was no way to mount it above the mid as there was just not enough space. The L7 tweeter plugs right into the center mid so the wiring was plug and play. When I was done I turned on the radio and made an interesting observation: it sounded freaking good! The imaging had improved significantly! Voices were now almost centered above the steering wheel, at least 10" over to the right and a couple of inches up as well, compared to where they were before. I was able to return the balance to the center position (was at +2) without pulling the image to the left. It also sounded more crisp, which was to be expected of course. I can honestly say that adding that one tweeter turned a mediocre sounding front stage into a very good one. We'll see if the MS-8 can take this "optimized" 14 speaker L7 system yet to another level...

Pics of center channel tweeter upgrade:

L7 tweeter with in-line crossover and plug-in connector

Tweeter plugs right into midrange

Tweeter mounted using high-tech bracket made from tin cookie box

Gorilla glue is awesome



Last edited by kaigoss69; 06-22-2010 at 05:29 PM.
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      06-21-2010, 08:38 PM   #17
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I can get a great center image with no center channel at all But it's a one-seat wonder.

I am interested in how well the MS-8 can do for both front seat passengers, especially with the steering wheel in the way for the passenger-side listener.
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      06-22-2010, 06:21 AM   #18
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Ch 1 & 2 Dynaudio MD102s (sails)
Ch 3 & 4 Dynaudio MW152's (stock door location)
Ch 5 & 6 Dynaudio MW172's (kick panels)
Ch 7 Dynaudio Esotar 1200 (ski pass IB mount)

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      06-22-2010, 03:34 PM   #19
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Based on some testing yesterday, anyone adding an MS-8 to a BMW E9x who doesn't run a trunk sub, DON'T set it up for the underseats to be subs. Define your system as subless and then define the front as a three-way setup. Otherwise, your 4"s will hate you.
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      06-23-2010, 07:16 PM   #20
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MS-8 requires a remote wire. L7 equipped cars usually do not have any switched 12V wires in the trunk, but I found one in my car. If you have a satellite receiver, you can tap the red-blue wire leading to the sat. cooling fan, see picture. The other wire is brown. Tap before the black connector for easier access. Works great!

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      06-23-2010, 08:17 PM   #21
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No idea what the current draw on the MS-8 RTO input is... so be careful!
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      06-23-2010, 10:02 PM   #22
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Set-up for the L7 OEM system plus tweeter on the center channel:

- Use FL, FR, and both underseat woofer outputs from the L7 amp. Use input 1 & 2 on the MS-8 for FL & FR, and input 7 & 8 (important!) for the sub channels.
- Turn all head unit processing OFF. This means L7 is OFF and the EQ settings are all at zero.
- Run set-up procedure on MS-8 per instructions. For me, head unit volume needed to be at 49-50 clicks for the MS-8 to accept it. Check out this thread if you don't know how to do that: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...volume+friggin
- Channel mapping as follows: ch1 = FL Hi, ch2 = FR Hi, ch3 = FL Lo, ch4 = FR Lo, ch5 = ctr, ch6 = SL (side left), ch7 = SL (side left). Even if you are using only the rear shelf speakers, and not the rear doors, still call the "sides".
- During x-over set-up, tell it you have 2-way front, and all other speakers are "1-way". For the fronts, select the "high-pass" (which is actually a subsonic filter for the underseat woofers - a bit confusing) - I set mine at 35Hz. X-over between woofers and door mids I set at 150Hz for now. High-pass for the center and rear speakers 150Hz as well for now.
- During acoustic calibration, leave MS-8 volume at -20 dB. [edit: it works much better at -35dB]
- When calibration is done, unplug the mic from the unit (there have been some issues when the mic was left plugged in).

Those are the most important points. If I forgot something, I'll add it later.

Oh yes, and the easiest way to do the wiring is to use Technic's awesome top-hifi harness. You don't need to cut ANY OEM wires for this install!

Shamelessly bastardized harness:


(Technic, I take it my warranty is now void?)

Last edited by kaigoss69; 09-24-2011 at 07:25 AM.
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