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      07-25-2010, 11:28 AM   #1
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335i limp mode party at the track

Welcome to the limp mode party thread.
This thread was created by track enthusiasts to help existing and new track enthusiasts enjoy their e90/e91/e92/e93s at the track.



We've come a long way in identifying the majority of N54 issues that cause limp modes at the track. We're logging (for the first time ever AFAIK) actual water/oil and other data points on the e9x platform for stock and several aftermarket solutions, some of which seem very promising.

This thread has grown tremendously over the last year due to the overwhelmingly POSITIVE ATTITUDE of all posters, let's keep it this way please. We're all here to help each other make the most out of our track sessions.


A few answers to get you started:

Q: I would like to take my e90/e91/e92/e93 to the track for the first time. Do I need to worry about my car overheating?
A: No, not at this point. Go out there and have fun.

Q. What is this track that you speak of? What kind of events can I participate in?
A: References to the track on this thread are related to HPDE events (High Performance Driving Education) or Time Trials.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HPDE

A typical day consists of 4-6 20-30min sessions. BMW CCA is a good starting point.

http://bmwcca.org

Or go to http://motorsportsreg.com to see all the clubs offering HPDE events in your area.


Q. What if my car is an AT?
A: Don't let that stop you from enjoying your car at the track. Most people in this thread have AT cars. Most of us are weekend track warriors without dedicated track cars.
Is the AT ideal at the track? Heck, no.
Will an AT car see overheating problems before a similarly equipped MT car? You bet.
There are several workarounds to help you maximize your track time, keep reading.


Q. I've attended a few HPDE events and I'm now noticing power loss or I see an "Engine malfunction" error on the dash, what's going on?
A: Welcome to the limp mode party. The engine is going into protective mode and reducing power (limp mode) as you've pushed it across, or near, some of its built-in thresholds. This is what it looks like:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=383


Q. Ok, which threshold?
A: We've identified 4 major items so far that can induce limp modes specifically at the track:

1. Oil Temps
2. Coolant Temps
3. VANOS issues
4. Traction control

Q. How do I measure oil/water temps?
A: Oil: Look at your oil gauge. Temps above 270F will start causing power loss until eventually you see an engine malfunction error at or right before 300F.
Coolant: Use this hack to display water temps on your dash:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=135
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=147

Coolant limits:


Interesting post about measured temps:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=273


Q: What about VANOS and Traction control limp modes?
A: VANOS: Error codes will be logged indicating which solenoid is defective, use a Bavarian Technic (or other similar) tool to read your error codes
Traction: There's no confirmation yet on how to identify traction-control induced limp modes but here's an explanation as to why the occur:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=406
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=403


Q: What can I do to reduce or eliminate oil-related limp modes?
A: A lot of us run aftermarket Oil Coolers. Have a look at the OC column at the chart at the bottom of this FAQ to see how they're behaving at the track

Q: Can I run 2 different OCs in parallel?
A: Yes, you can, however we have no data logs for this configuration

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=421


Q: Can I build my own OC?
A: Yes, you can, however we have no data logs for this configuration

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...250+oil+cooler


Q: Any way to improve airflow to the OC?
A: Yes, by removing the brake duct on the passenger side

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=245

or removing the foglight/replacing the rather small 335i duct with the larger 335is/M3 ones:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=492
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=499


Q: What can I do to reduce or eliminate coolant-based limp modes?
A: You can get an aftermarket radiator (PWR, AR). Or you can replace your coolant with distilled water plus water wetter or Mocool or at least reduce the coolant ratio. Have a look at the coolant column of the chart at the bottom of this FAQ post to see what some of us are using.

Good advice here too:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=399

You can also remove the engine cover and cowl although we have no comparison data to determine if this helps.

One of the tuners introduced an alpha feature to drive the water pump at 100% at will, this will be tested in July for the first time:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=428



Q: Is there a DIY to change/replace/flush coolant on the N54?
A: Yes.
here's a DIY for a partial coolant flush on AT cars: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=493
and for MT cars: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=504

Please note that a complete flush requires dropping the FMIC to get to the blue/yellow drain plug. Your local Indy shop should be able to handle this for you. BYOC (Bring Your Own Coolant)

Q: I'm logging my water temps and they're volatile from turns to straights, why is that?
A: Here's a theory on that:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=251


Q: Is there an inherent cooling issue with the N54?
A: It appears so, here's a good explanation of the cylinder 5/6 cooling issue:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=417


Q: Can I datalog while driving at an HPDE event?
A: Tuner software/hardware will let you datalog but not without lugging a laptop or a Cobb device around, which is a major safety issue at HPDEs. If you find a way to secure such a device in the car and have it tech inspected successfully, please tell us how you did it!

Q: Any other fluids that I need to worry about at the track?
A: Some recomendations here:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=131


Q: Why are you tracking Spec Miata times on your chart?
A: It's a good indication of how hard we drive our cars at the track. We debated the best method to do so for a while and ended up tracking Spec Miata times, where available. Trackpedia is a good source for this info. Combine that data with our success (or not) of running limp-mode free and our OC/Coolant configurations and bingo, you have a list of working solutions for the track. We welcome new track results, post them here and we'll update the chart.



Q: How can I add my track data to your chart?
A: Here's the link to the google docs spreadsheet:

https://spreadsheets.google.com/spre...d0UlE&hl=en_GB

Obligatory reference to using a 335 when the M3 breaks down, along with the truth about tracking the 335
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=748


Have fun at the track




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------












First post, July 2010:

Just came back from a 2 day DE. Out of a total of 12 x 25min sessions I managed to see the checkered flag 3 times (first session of the day each day and one laid-back session) due to limp modes/overheating. When I ran with a tune enabled it was limp mode galore, with tune off it was the engine overheating warning. Oil temp around 300 each time. Tried both DCI and stock intake, with DCI I was able to get a few more laps before limp mode land.

I've had occasional cooling problems on the track before but never to this extent...there was a combination of events that exacerbated the issue: driving a bit more aggressive now (intermediate solo), ambient in mid-90s and PCA somehow managed to cram 6 x 25min sessions in a single day, there was no time to cool the car down. Started sessions with oil temps in the 230F range and jumped to 300F within 3-4 laps. Chasing 911 turbos and GT3s didn't help much either.

What cooling options do you recommend at this point? Larger oil cooler and by whom? I'm not ditching the 335i for track use, I just go out 10-15 days a year for fun. Just looking to see the checkered flag more often in the summer months.

thanks

Last edited by mid-corner fun; 11-26-2011 at 10:29 AM.
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      07-25-2010, 04:24 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterM1 View Post
What cooling options do you recommend at this point? Larger oil cooler and by whom? I'm not ditching the 335i for track use, I just go out 10-15 days a year for fun. Just looking to see the checkered flag more often in the summer months.
thanks
Dude, we are all in the same boat. Some people had luck with the use of a larger oil cooler+ a proper racing oil (Total 10W50/Redline 15W50/Motul Racing). Do a search for the makers of the larger aftermarket oil coolers.
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      07-25-2010, 11:24 PM   #3
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I would look at the AR Design bigger oil cooler...not sure on the bigger intercooler..havent been keeping track of the latest in those. I no longer have my 335..but I had more limp modes and CELs that anyone. I am an instructor with Hooked on Driving/BMW Club/Audi Club..and had the Dinan Stage2 tune...and went decently hard every time I went out. Good luck.
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      07-26-2010, 10:18 AM   #4
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The VK cooler really changed everything for me. Could sit out on track for 1.5 hours no problem.
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      07-26-2010, 12:26 PM   #5
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everyone thanks for the feedback. I should have mentioned earlier that I spent a few hours reading about aftermarket oil coolers before posting here :-) I'm leaning towards the AR oil cooler, the VK one seems to require a lot of cutting to get it to replace the OEM one. I like the 2nd core approach that AR took on this one. Then there's also the combined cp-e FMIC/cooler option...

What I'm not 100% clear on is the effect of an FMIC on oil temp reduction specifically for a track setup. IATs will be much lower obviously and presumably oil temps should be lowered as well as a byproduct but I'm not sure if that would be sufficient to indirectly bypass the oil cooling issue. Just trying to see if I can kill 2 birds with one stone (FMIC).

Most likely I'll end up with an AR cooler...there goes my fund for the M3 control arms

Last edited by mid-corner fun; 07-26-2010 at 02:22 PM.
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      07-28-2010, 08:30 PM   #6
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Maybe you should consider the upgraded radiator from AR. They said that their radiator would cool more than their AR oil cooler upgrade.
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      07-28-2010, 10:19 PM   #7
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I haven't received an invite to the limp mode party...

Check with Harold @ HP Autowerks. I believe they were developing an all new radiator setup. Might be done by now.
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      07-28-2010, 11:26 PM   #8
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You need an oil cooler and a high performance radiator...really. The HP Time Attack car gets hot. The Berk Engineering car gets hot. They all get hot. Mine gets hot.
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      07-29-2010, 09:33 AM   #9
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Harold told me the upgraded radiator is making a huge difference. I'll wait to see what he comes out with because 1000 for a radiator (AR) just too much.

The upgraded oil cooler made a significant difference for me, but the upgraded rad should double down on that.
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      07-29-2010, 10:06 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MteK View Post
Harold told me the upgraded radiator is making a huge difference. I'll wait to see what he comes out with because 1000 for a radiator (AR) just too much.
always good to have several suppliers offering Curious about the pricing from HP Autowerks.
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      07-29-2010, 11:35 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MteK View Post
Harold told me the upgraded radiator is making a huge difference. I'll wait to see what he comes out with because 1000 for a radiator (AR) just too much.

The upgraded oil cooler made a significant difference for me, but the upgraded rad should double down on that.
$1,000 for a good high capacity radiator with aluminum neck (I assume) is CHEAP. I have "connections" and it still cost me $800 for a radiator for my E30 318is, and I am almost certain there were no mark-up on that and I got "jobber" price.

And an upgraded radiator will go a very VERY long way to solving some limp issues but not all. The issue is inherent with the long engine block. The last 2 cylinder just isn't getting the proper cooling air and water flow and forcing the oil to do more work to keep the engine cool. To "solve" limp problem on the N54 you need an entire OVERHAUL of the cooling system and even then there's no guarantee it'll work.

I'd suggest:

Upgraded radiator
Additional aux. pull fan
2ndary oil cooler in addition to the OEM one
Reprogrammed water pump to flow at higher capacity (ala Dinan)
Air duct altering underbody air flow to redirect ambient air to the last two cylinder

Automatics need not apply. There's just no way to build enough heat exchanger to allow the system to evacuate heat fast enough because the radiator needs to cool down transmission fluid too. If it's an automatic I wouldn't even bother tracking it.
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      07-29-2010, 11:49 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
$1,000 for a good high capacity radiator with aluminum neck (I assume) is CHEAP. I have "connections" and it still cost me $800 for a radiator for my E30 318is, and I am almost certain there were no mark-up on that and I got "jobber" price.
there are several companies offering performance alluminium radiators for a much better price (unfortunately not for the 335i yet)

http://www.activeautowerke.com/viewp...x?id=Product90
http://www.redlinemotive.com/store/m...diator/bmw.asp
http://www.beastpower.com/p/bmw/vsl-...e/VSL-BE36-RAD

let's hope there will be some available soon for the 335i.
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      07-29-2010, 11:51 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
Automatics need not apply. There's just no way to build enough heat exchanger to allow the system to evacuate heat fast enough because the radiator needs to cool down transmission fluid too. If it's an automatic I wouldn't even bother tracking it.
Oh Hack. Don't be a hater. I never knew I would drive my car on the track when I bought it and voila, I'm introduced to a whole new hobby because of it. It's the car I have so it's the car I drive.

With all that, if I knew then what I know now I would have bought an MT or waited for the M3.

You can still have fun with an AT (sub 2 at Infineon on streets) but it'll just never be a great track car or the best 335 you can track.
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      07-29-2010, 12:27 PM   #14
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Oh Hack. Don't be a hater.

You can still have fun with an AT (sub 2 at Infineon on streets) but it'll just never be a great track car or the best 335 you can track.
Can you do that same sub 2 minute lap for 5 laps in a row in the automatic? Without limp?

The problem with the N54 and heat related issues, is that if you have to back off the throttle every 2 laps or so because the car will overheat if you don't, it's going to be very DIFFICULT to learn to be consistent lap after lap after lap.

Just sayin'.
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      07-29-2010, 05:27 PM   #15
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10 to 15 days a year is actually pretty intensive.
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      07-29-2010, 06:55 PM   #16
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10 to 15 days a year is actually pretty intensive.
One 2-day event every month, April to Oct gets you to 14 days. That's my goal so far, throw in a bonus 3-day event and a couple of single day events and I'm happy.


Good info in this thread, I'm glad to see I'm not imagining things. The E46 guys at the track kept asking me why I was pitting in early...

I've gone back and watched my videos since April, the only overheating problems (~300F oil temps) I've had were in 85F+ ambient situations, specifically July & August in the Northeast. That's 2-3 events tops for me. Since I'm in this for fun I'll cut my losses and go for the 2nd oil cooler, probably AR design, and stop there, probably register for more DEs in June/Sep instead of July/Aug. Sure the 335i is far from ideal for a track setup but it's still one heck of a fun car to toss around.
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      07-30-2010, 12:40 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
Can you do that same sub 2 minute lap for 5 laps in a row in the automatic? Without limp?

The problem with the N54 and heat related issues, is that if you have to back off the throttle every 2 laps or so because the car will overheat if you don't, it's going to be very DIFFICULT to learn to be consistent lap after lap after lap.

Just sayin'.
You got me there

It is not the optimal car for sure but it's what I got so it's what I run. Also, if it weren't for my 335 I never would have driven my car around a rave track.

I'll continue modding it to be more reliable, not faster.
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      07-30-2010, 09:25 AM   #18
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Quote:
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Can you do that same sub 2 minute lap for 5 laps in a row in the automatic? Without limp?

The problem with the N54 and heat related issues, is that if you have to back off the throttle every 2 laps or so because the car will overheat if you don't, it's going to be very DIFFICULT to learn to be consistent lap after lap after lap.

Just sayin'.
Some of us drive for fun and not to try and become the next Fittipaldi. My car gets me to the track and back then takes me to work the next day.

If you're that HARDDCORE maybe a dedicated track car is in order. Something you can afford to ball up v. a $45K luxury coupe when you're pushing the envelope trying to shave that 1/10th second of your last lap.
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      07-30-2010, 11:38 AM   #19
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Quote:
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Some of us drive for fun and not to try and become the next Fittipaldi. My car gets me to the track and back then takes me to work the next day.

If you're that HARDDCORE maybe a dedicated track car is in order. Something you can afford to ball up v. a $45K luxury coupe when you're pushing the envelope trying to shave that 1/10th second of your last lap.
It's not about hardcore. It's not about having a car that you can afford to wad up. It's about improving one's self on the track. If you can't do consistent laps at speed you can't improve. It's about as simple as that.

I'm not saying the 335i is a horrible car. It's just a horrible car to use as a learning tool for the track because it does not allow you to consistently push. And by "push" I don't mean exceeding your abilities. I mean push as in extending your own capabilities as a driver. The problem is, if the car goes limp whenever you're about to add more speed and consistency, then the whole learning process flattens out...And I don't know about you, but my feeling is, if you're not constantly trying to improve yourself and your driving, then this sport isn't for you. Because unlike some other professions and activities where one can be limited by their physical skills, MOST of driving fast is mental...And there really is no limit to the learning here.

Having said that. IF the 335i is my daily drive, I WOULD go and pick up a different car for track use, unless I've got the goods to put in enough money to cure all of the ills. Problem is, I believe to cure all the heat related ills on the 335i you would have spent enough money to pick up a well prepared wreck-me-otter. Unfortunately, being of a somewhat "rueben-esque" figure means a wreck-me-otter won't work.

So I ended up with a WRX for daily and an MZ4 Coupe for track instead.

p.s.: I don't mean to direct any of this at JBass. I applaud anyone using their daily drive on the track to improve their skills. And I applaud his effort to improve the reliability of the car in effort to have more fun while learning. I am just pointing out that the 335i does have some serious inherent problems that will require a lot more time and effort to correct than most BMWs do. That is all.
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      07-30-2010, 11:54 AM   #20
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Agreed Hack.
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      07-30-2010, 12:01 PM   #21
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I'm with jbass and Mtek. This is my daily driver, with occasional fun at the track. I'm doing about 8-10 track days a year now, and the car's been a real fun experience so far.

But it's not perfect, and I've had limp mode problems as jbass and mtek knows...still the overall experience is positive and I'm very happy w/ my 335's experience at the track. I'm still new and haven't experienced the flattening of the learning curve that The Hack mentioned. Realistically, I believe this car will carry me through these first few years. When I become more advanced like you guys, I'll ask for suggestions on what a good replacement track car would be. But so far so good!

But as jbass said, reliability mods are at the top of my list now
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      07-30-2010, 02:46 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterM1 View Post
everyone thanks for the feedback. I should have mentioned earlier that I spent a few hours reading about aftermarket oil coolers before posting here :-) I'm leaning towards the AR oil cooler, the VK one seems to require a lot of cutting to get it to replace the OEM one. I like the 2nd core approach that AR took on this one. Then there's also the combined cp-e FMIC/cooler option...
the AR oil cooler also requires a lot of cut behind the bumper. I asked for the install manual and it calls for trimming a lot of section off. Im also thinking about the AR system. By far the Dinan seems to be the most effective, but the money is too much.

One more thing off subject. Is there any local meet near bay area. Just guide me to the right direction. I searched and found nothing.
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