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      09-07-2010, 11:09 PM   #111
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OK, so with the following filters:
- Trunk sub LP 80Hz, 12db
- 2-way front, 200Hz Lo/Hi @ 12db
- Rears HP 100Hz

The midbass ends up at about half of the level it should be at. I tihnk I read somewhere that the MS8 does not believe that more than one "channel" should cover a certain frequency range, maybe that's why it's ignoring the underseat woofers? I will have to try with 24db slopes to see if it makes a difference.

I did the calibration with all gains set to 0.5V (minimum on my amp) and then I raised the gains for the underseats - definitely works.

I dont have an oscilloscpe, but what is the level of the MS8's line outputs, in volts?
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      09-08-2010, 05:45 AM   #112
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Make sure the sweeps are all about the same volume level. JBL recommends "conversation level", i.e. the volume level at which you speak, so not very loud at all. I would set the x-overs at 150Hz for the fronts and rears and 60Hz for the trunk. My slopes are 24dB/oct.
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      09-08-2010, 06:17 AM   #113
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I hook up the JBL mic to my phone and run SigScopePro to match the levels (roughly) at the pink noise screen, then I set the volume to conversation level. I found that best results are achieved if the volume is about the same as someone sitting in the passenger seat mumbling/talking to themselves. One thing that upsets me is the BMW HU fan. It's loud and I feel like it's messing with my sweeps

- P
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      09-08-2010, 06:27 AM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oca123 View Post
I hook up the JBL mic to my phone and run SigScopePro to match the levels (roughly) at the pink noise screen, then I set the volume to conversation level. I found that best results are achieved if the volume is about the same as someone sitting in the passenger seat mumbling/talking to themselves. One thing that upsets me is the BMW HU fan. It's loud and I feel like it's messing with my sweeps

- P
Turn the head unit OFF during the sweeps!!!
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      09-08-2010, 06:47 AM   #115
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I turn the ignition off during the sweeps, but you know how the car is always doing something. For example, I found if you shut the door and run the sweep within 1 seconds, you will have just enough time to test one seating position before the seat belt retractor activates. I dont know how many times these seat belt retractors ruined my sweeps.
Anyway, the HU gets hot really fast and its fans turn on, and they will run and emit noise regardless of whether the key is in the ignition or not.
I will have to sneak up on the car after its been parked for a while and run my sweeps then

Next, I need to add a center channel. I am running BSW front and rear mids/tweets and I don't want to buy another speaker from them. What about using one of the OEM front drivers? I have the HiFi system.

While on the MS8 topic - I noticed that it performs best when driven directly via its Aux IN port. Since I have the HiFi system, I have tried the speaker-level input into the MS8 as well as soldering up RCAs on the HU outputs. The latter resulted in a noisy signal (passes the input calibration test on the MS8 though) but maybe I did not do it correctly. Anyway - speaker-level front+rear from HU into MS8 sounds great, but I did some testing:
1) MP3 burned onto CD, played in HU -> sounds good
2) MP3 on iPod, played via it's line out (sendstation) into the Aux In port of the HU -> a lot worse than (1) - sounds muffled
3) MP3 on iPod, played via its line out (sendstation) into 2.5mm to RCA cable, into MS8 Aux In -> sounds the best. Makes (1) sound muffled. This is the clearest input I can get.

I did remove a couple of resistors in the BMW Aux In harness - I thought at the time that it improved the quality but I'm not so sure anymore.
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      09-08-2010, 07:07 AM   #116
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I usually do the sweeps between 3 and 4 am when it is quietest, park the car in the garage, let my heart rate drop down to 50, and hold my breath....

j/k That used to be what you had to do with Alpine Imprint to get a good calibration, but not with the MS-8. Just make sure there aren't any loud noises inside the car during the sweeps. I like to wait about 30 sec to 1 minute after I shut the door before I start the sweeps, just to make sure all the electrical "gremlins" have had their moment. The head unit can (and should) remain OFF during the sweeps.

Why don't you buy the center from BSW if all the other speakers are from them? Whatever you do, make sure you include a tweeter in your plans! How are you going to drive the center?

Regarding inputs, seems you messed up the AUX input circuitry. I have not tried running the iPod directly to the MS-8, I'll have to try. In my case, it sounds crisp and clear using the speaker level outputs from the L7 amp right now. Soon, I will recode the HU to Hifi and feed the MS-8 a balanced low-level signal for (hopefully) even better sound.
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      09-08-2010, 07:29 AM   #117
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I have a hifi unit with the low-level balanced outputs. How would you run these into the MS8? Should I try to solder up RCAs again? I would hook up signal (-) to outer shield, and (+) to the middle connector.
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      09-08-2010, 07:33 AM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oca123 View Post
I have a hifi unit with the low-level balanced outputs. How would you run these into the MS8? Should I try to solder up RCAs again? I would hook up signal (-) to outer shield, and (+) to the middle connector.
The balanced inputs of the HiFi OEM amp should be used at the low level inputs of the MS-8 while skipping the input level setup.

Last edited by Technic; 09-08-2010 at 08:16 AM.
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      09-08-2010, 07:33 AM   #119
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I'm just not a fan of BSW's speakers and I also had a bad sales experience. I like their subwoofer enclosure though. I originally got their speakers hoping it would make the system sound bearable but it didn't. Since I live in Europe at the moment it's a pain to get these out here. I think i'll search ebay or hit up my local dealership for a L7 speaker. How hard was it to put in the trim? any way I can fit a center channel without having to order the center trim?
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      09-08-2010, 07:45 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oca123 View Post
I'm just not a fan of BSW's speakers and I also had a bad sales experience. I like their subwoofer enclosure though. I originally got their speakers hoping it would make the system sound bearable but it didn't. Since I live in Europe at the moment it's a pain to get these out here. I think i'll search ebay or hit up my local dealership for a L7 speaker. How hard was it to put in the trim? any way I can fit a center channel without having to order the center trim?
Get the Individual Audio OEM coaxial center speaker.
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      09-08-2010, 08:13 AM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Technic View Post
The balanced outputs of the HiFi OEM amp should be used at the low level inputs of the MS-8 while skipping the input level setup.
You mean OEM HU, not amp, right? The OEM amp is currently not plugged in.

So, grab the 4 wire pairs (FL, FR, RL, RR) and run them into the first 4 input channels of the MS8 via soldered up RCA connectors?

- P
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      09-08-2010, 08:16 AM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oca123 View Post
You mean OEM HU, not amp, right? The OEM amp is currently not plugged in.

So, grab the 4 wire pairs (FL, FR, RL, RR) and run them into the first 4 input channels of the MS8 via soldered up RCA connectors?

- P
I meant, OEM amp inputs. Sorry.

You can use only 2 RCA inputs of the MS-8, or 4 RCA inputs if your car has park distance control (will keep the beeps).
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      09-08-2010, 08:39 AM   #123
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I use the Aux inputs for the iphone. I have PDC and I want to hear the chimes. Talking about that... the MS8 completely screws PDC up - before, you could tell just by ear where an object was.... Since the MS8 doesn't know and doesn't care which input is rear/front/left/right that staging is gone.
However there will still be output to the front channel if the obstacle is in the back. So basically, rear is music only, while front is music, chimes, GPS turn by turn, and PDC. You could just run the front then.

So wire up (-) to outer shield of RCAs and + to the other one, and run front+rear into all 4 inputs, then should I skip or still run the cailbration? Again I am not hooking up the HU to the Aux In of the MS8 - that's for the iphone.
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      09-08-2010, 09:42 AM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oca123 View Post

So wire up (-) to outer shield of RCAs and + to the other one, and run front+rear into all 4 inputs, then should I skip or still run the cailbration? Again I am not hooking up the HU to the Aux In of the MS8 - that's for the iphone.
Skip input level setup with balanced inputs. Calibration is a requirement.
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      09-15-2010, 12:29 AM   #125
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Regarding this midbass volume issue for people with trunk subs.... Technic, you mention that you use your amp's gains to raise the volume for the underseat channels after running the acoustic measurements, and I have been doing the same. This is because we set up our speakers as a 2-way front, with a crossover somewhere around 150-200.

Could you do me a favor? I decided to try something different and I set it up as follows:
Front: 1-way (front mid/tweets, passive)
Sides: underseat, high-pass 50Hz ADMW-9
Rears: 1-way (backseat mid/tweets, passive)
Subs: 1 channel (trunk sub)
with one channel left over (will be used for center when I get the speaker)

I don't know if I'm crazy or what, but it seems to sound much better this way, and I was able to just match the gains before running the sweeps and the mid-bass ended up strong with no need to readjust the gains, resulting in a much higher overall volume as well.

I would like to find someone else with a trunk sub and some underseats to do the same. Would you mind trying and letting me know? I see you have both sides and rears so you may need to disconnect the sides or rears for this test. Since it sounds better each and every time you run acoustic measurements I'm sure you won't mind tryingm will you?

Kaigoss if I remember correctly you are not running a trunk sub so it wouldn't work for you.

Last edited by oca123; 09-15-2010 at 12:35 AM.
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      09-15-2010, 11:45 AM   #126
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The sides are only for Logic 7 effects, aren't they? I thought that when you turned off Logic 7, you lost center and side output?
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      09-15-2010, 01:58 PM   #127
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Has someone tried setting the front to "one-way" and using a 4-channel amp with built-in active x-over, two channels going to the door mounted speakers ~ 200hz and above and two channels going to the underseat drivers ~60hz-200hz?
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      09-16-2010, 08:57 AM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oca123 View Post
Regarding this midbass volume issue for people with trunk subs.... Technic, you mention that you use your amp's gains to raise the volume for the underseat channels after running the acoustic measurements, and I have been doing the same. This is because we set up our speakers as a 2-way front, with a crossover somewhere around 150-200.

Could you do me a favor? I decided to try something different and I set it up as follows:
Front: 1-way (front mid/tweets, passive)
Sides: underseat, high-pass 50Hz ADMW-9
Rears: 1-way (backseat mid/tweets, passive)
Subs: 1 channel (trunk sub)
with one channel left over (will be used for center when I get the speaker)

I don't know if I'm crazy or what, but it seems to sound much better this way, and I was able to just match the gains before running the sweeps and the mid-bass ended up strong with no need to readjust the gains, resulting in a much higher overall volume as well.

I would like to find someone else with a trunk sub and some underseats to do the same. Would you mind trying and letting me know? I see you have both sides and rears so you may need to disconnect the sides or rears for this test. Since it sounds better each and every time you run acoustic measurements I'm sure you won't mind tryingm will you?

Kaigoss if I remember correctly you are not running a trunk sub so it wouldn't work for you.
I fixed my problem with midbass by running the calibration with these settings:

- Sub is 80Hz at 24dB slope
- Front Lo/Hi is 170Hz at 18dB slope
- 40dB volume
- 2V gains (NOM) in all my channels except the mid bass at 4V (min). My amps are Alpine PDX.

After calibration I set all the gains back to minimum, the MS-8 volume to -6dB and the midbass is finally there and tight; if I raise the gains of the midbass now they will sound considerably louder than before.
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      09-17-2010, 09:26 PM   #129
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OK, so I tried several things:
- 3-way front using amp's crossovers -> sounded terrible, probably because the woofers are under the seats (MS8 doesn't know how to deal with that)
- 2 chan sub, crossed over at 180Hz/24db on MS8 then using LP on trunk sub @ 80Hz -> sounds boomy. I put in some RATM and immediately decided that this wasn't going to work. Guitars sounded like they were wrapped in towels.

I finally set the gains for the midbass to minimum (on my amp, you actually set the input level, so I set that to 15V with 0.5v being the highest gain) and I set the rest of the speakers about halfway, then fine-matched with SPL meter.
After calibration, I set the volume to -6db as mentioned in the MS8's manual, unplugged all speakers except for midbass, put in a test tones CD, then turned the HU knob all the way to the right, then back 10 clicks. I then (very quickly) raised the midbass gain until it clipped (which is pretty much all the way up) and hit mute just in time to hear my wife scream.
I then raised the gains for the rest of the speakers until I was satisfied.

I still wish the MS8 would output the right voltage to power the midbass. Is it a bug or is this the MS8's intended behavior? Setting up the system as describe above and in Technic's post works but you lose some volume (which doesn't matter anyway because with the HU set at high as it goes without clipping, I can't go past -25dB on the MS8 volume control - it is just too loud)

I need to order the center coaxial speaker, however I am thinking about using it with the OEM Bluetooth only until JBL fixes the echo problem.

Finally - here are pics of my install. I still need to clean up the cables and I believe I need to have a new license plate made as it got distorted (I know this sounds crazy but could it be from the sound??)
I also need to make a cover and lay stock-looking carpet on it so that I can hide the setup when I go to not-so-safe places.

I also cut out a hole above the subwoofer in the stock trunk carpet trim, then I recarpeted the trunk floor with black matte carpet, leaving the hole. The new carpet lets air get through, but is tight and strong enough to support items put in the trunk.

I would love to get some feedback as this is my first install. I think VP gave me the bug.....
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      10-11-2010, 02:02 AM   #130
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Get the Individual Audio OEM coaxial center speaker.
http://cgi.ebay.com/OEM-BMW-E90-M3-3...item45eeb8380f
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      10-11-2010, 04:53 AM   #131
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That's not the Individual coaxial speaker, that's a mid.
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      10-11-2010, 02:04 PM   #132
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How do they say "DOH" in HK?
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