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      09-14-2010, 10:11 AM   #1
campbelly
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how do i fight this ticket!!!

so to make a long story short...i went to school in montreal but recently moved back to toronto..upon returning i still had quebec plates on my car (as well as a quebec license)..one day im driving on st. clair for those of you who know and about to turn into a loblaws, when i see a cop rush up behind me and turn on his lights..basically he comes out and i give him my license and registration and he sees its from quebec so he asks me how long i have been back in Ontario for?

stupidly i say the truth which was about 6 months and he proceeds to go to his car and write me up a fat $325 ticket for "Driving motor vehicle with no/invalid license" because you need to switch your license back within 90 days then proceeds to tell me the registration on the car is also expired and "thats the reason he pulled me over in the first place" (cough cough bullshit)...

anyways,

scheduled a court date and my notice just came in the mail today saying its in January 2011...whats the best way to go about fighting this ticket without the use of a lawyer?
ive heard of methods like asking for the court documents a couple months before the date and hoping they never send them, then showing up and saying you never received the documents to prepare for the case or something?

hoping someone could clear this up..thanks
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      09-14-2010, 10:18 AM   #2
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I really don't see how you can fight this ticket.
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      09-14-2010, 10:20 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonybest View Post
I really don't see how you can fight this ticket.
maybe i did use the wrong choice of words...replace fight with either reduce fine/not pay for
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      09-14-2010, 10:49 AM   #4
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Well you can ask the prosecution for their evidence which will include the officers notes, anything he said, anything you said....

You can get this, by calling the Court and asking for the prosecutions evidence .. if I remember you fax in a form then they send you a copy of everything in the mail...

On the trial date, you will meet before with the prosecutor ... they are usually pricks that don't care what you did just want you in and out as quick as possible so that they can go back to their office to watch kiddie porn..

so you can use this to your advantage by telling them you do not have the money to pay for it right now or some sympathetic excuse and get them to lower the fine....

Since the offense is not like some 17 year old driving around with no license plates you can challenge the officer and say that you said 6 weeks not 6 months.. or say that within that 6 months you commuted to Ontario several times a month but still live with your friend in Quebec..

My 2 cents
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      09-14-2010, 11:22 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roman_s View Post
Well you can ask the prosecution for their evidence which will include the officers notes, anything he said, anything you said....

You can get this, by calling the Court and asking for the prosecutions evidence .. if I remember you fax in a form then they send you a copy of everything in the mail...

On the trial date, you will meet before with the prosecutor ... they are usually pricks that don't care what you did just want you in and out as quick as possible so that they can go back to their office to watch kiddie porn..

so you can use this to your advantage by telling them you do not have the money to pay for it right now or some sympathetic excuse and get them to lower the fine....

Since the offense is not like some 17 year old driving around with no license plates you can challenge the officer and say that you said 6 weeks not 6 months.. or say that within that 6 months you commuted to Ontario several times a month but still live with your friend in Quebec..

My 2 cents
It is called Disclosure. And this must be done via a form that you submit to the office where you've filed your ticket.

If you're looking for a way out by using this method, it's not guaranteed as they could mail you the disclosure in time for the trial. My suggestion is 9 weeks prior to the court date is when you should file. This gives them minimum amount of time to send you the disclosure without you sorta trying to strongarm the process.

How long has it been since you got the ticket? If the ticket is 11+ months away from the court date, you can attempt to file a "stay of proceedings" which effectively cancels the ticket if granted by the judge. This is related to the fact you weren't given a timely trial, etc... bla bla bla.

I'm sure when you go to court, they'll reduce your ticket to something more misdemeanor with a smaller file even if you don't do the above. But if you want to get off completely, then ask disclosure, file for stay (if 11+ months), etc.
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      09-14-2010, 11:37 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nospleeny View Post
It is called Disclosure. And this must be done via a form that you submit to the office where you've filed your ticket.

If you're looking for a way out by using this method, it's not guaranteed as they could mail you the disclosure in time for the trial. My suggestion is 9 weeks prior to the court date is when you should file. This gives them minimum amount of time to send you the disclosure without you sorta trying to strongarm the process.

How long has it been since you got the ticket? If the ticket is 11+ months away from the court date, you can attempt to file a "stay of proceedings" which effectively cancels the ticket if granted by the judge. This is related to the fact you weren't given a timely trial, etc... bla bla bla.

I'm sure when you go to court, they'll reduce your ticket to something more misdemeanor with a smaller file even if you don't do the above. But if you want to get off completely, then ask disclosure, file for stay (if 11+ months), etc.
ok great thanks, i got the ticket on april 2nd 2010
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      09-14-2010, 11:38 AM   #7
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I do agree that you can probably reduce the penalties... if penalties there are (i.e. you are late in paying fine). There are no points for this kind of infraction so another way the judge could have "diminished" the fine is gone...
As for proof of the infraction... all they have to do is produce a printout of your file. There is nothing in this case regarding his word again'st your word.. This is not a speeding ticket or a burnt red light...
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      09-14-2010, 12:00 PM   #8
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you should have kept quiet since you are not legally obligated to answer the cop's question (without having a lawyer).

just got to court and keep postponing the trial. If the cop relies on his memory, then he may forget. If he kept good notes, then you are fried (but at least you can postpone the agony).

You can find out if the cop has kept his notes by filing a Disclosure. (from previous posts above)

Quote:
Originally Posted by campbelly View Post
so to make a long story short...i went to school in montreal but recently moved back to toronto..upon returning i still had quebec plates on my car (as well as a quebec license)..one day im driving on st. clair for those of you who know and about to turn into a loblaws, when i see a cop rush up behind me and turn on his lights..basically he comes out and i give him my license and registration and he sees its from quebec so he asks me how long i have been back in Ontario for?

stupidly i say the truth which was about 6 months and he proceeds to go to his car and write me up a fat $325 ticket for "Driving motor vehicle with no/invalid license" because you need to switch your license back within 90 days then proceeds to tell me the registration on the car is also expired and "thats the reason he pulled me over in the first place" (cough cough bullshit)...

anyways,

scheduled a court date and my notice just came in the mail today saying its in January 2011...whats the best way to go about fighting this ticket without the use of a lawyer?
ive heard of methods like asking for the court documents a couple months before the date and hoping they never send them, then showing up and saying you never received the documents to prepare for the case or something?

hoping someone could clear this up..thanks
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      09-14-2010, 12:39 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by achien View Post
you should have kept quiet since you are not legally obligated to answer the cop's question (without having a lawyer).

just got to court and keep postponing the trial. If the cop relies on his memory, then he may forget. If he kept good notes, then you are fried (but at least you can postpone the agony).

You can find out if the cop has kept his notes by filing a Disclosure. (from previous posts above)

This is actually good advice!

One thing I would add about the disclosure. File the request 1 week before trial. It's not your fault the court can't produce ONE document in 7 days, is it?

Remember, no one told you about the disclosure, not the officer, not the court. So you had to do your own learning (in this case the forums) and if you found out about obtaining a disclosure 7 days prior to your trial, why should you be held accountable for that?
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      09-14-2010, 01:11 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenTrovato View Post
This is actually good advice!

One thing I would add about the disclosure. File the request 1 week before trial. It's not your fault the court can't produce ONE document in 7 days, is it?

Remember, no one told you about the disclosure, not the officer, not the court. So you had to do your own learning (in this case the forums) and if you found out about obtaining a disclosure 7 days prior to your trial, why should you be held accountable for that?
Wrong.......??? Ignorance is not a valid defense! If filed one week before, the courts can still proceed with trial if they want since you didn't follow the procedures.

I recall the minimum required time you need to give them to produce disclosure is approximately 8 weeks. That's why I mentioned giving them 9 weeks.

If they don't send it to you in time, sometimes the courts will say that the officer is present and he can give you notes to photocopy which you can be given an hour to review. You should always argue this and say that one hour is insufficient time to prepare a good defense. Why should you give up your right to disclosure if you followed the proper procedure? You've given them reasonable time to give you the disclosure, now you're requesting the same reasonable time to review the disclosure.
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      09-14-2010, 03:54 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nospleeny View Post
Wrong.......??? Ignorance is not a valid defense! If filed one week before, the courts can still proceed with trial if they want since you didn't follow the procedures.
Also, anything that looks like deliberate delaying tactics may backfire on you. For example, if you are seen to be causing delays, you may not be able to argue that it has taken too long to get to trial. Plus the JP will not like you, and that's a bad thing when he or she is the one deciding whether you're guilty or not.

Don't think of it in terms of some "trick" you can pull to "get off on a technicality." Treat it for what it is: you have been charged with an offence, and you have the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty. (How that right plays out in practice is another story.) The prosecutor has an obligation to prove your guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, and you have the right to a full and vigourous defence. If you can raise reasonable doubt, you have the right to be found not guilty. In order to defend yourself, you need access to all of the materials that the prosecution plans to use against you, as well as access to any other evidence that you think might server to exonerate you or cast doubt upon your guilt. They're not supposed to keep the evidence against you secret, but they won't give it to you either unless you ask properly.

Just remember that, at trial, it isn't about what you did or didn't do: it's about the law. Sometimes innocent people get convicted and sometimes the guilty go free: that's the system we've got. But any arguments you make have to have a solid legal basis or else they're worse than worthless. The questions you have to ask are: (1) What case will the prosecution bring against you? (2) What facts or arguments can you make that would raise reasonable doubt on the prosecutor's case? (3) Are there any legal reasons why the charges against you are invalid? For example, can you argue that the officer did not have probable cause to stop you and so anything he found as a result is inadmissible as evidence?
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      09-14-2010, 04:16 PM   #12
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I also have a hunch that it might be same cop. I got pulled over in that area too (Mt. Pleasant area). Was he white, kind of young, wears Oakley sunglasses, dark brown hair, kind of skinny?

I got pulled over too because I had Alberta plates. I was in Ontario for a long time but my car was not and I recently drove it over. Got pulled over because the registration showed my license was "surrendered" (Of course! You have to surrender it when getting your license and you need your license before getting your Ontario plates!! But the system will show I have a new license so I think he was making that up too) He asked me how long I have been in Ontario and I told him the truth which was I've been here since April but my vehicle was back in Alberta until July when I drove it over. Gave him my license and registration and he ran it and gave it back. Let me off without even apologizing for the mistake or even saying "have a nice day". I even said before he left "I have 60 days to register my car here right?". Cop just walked away without answering that. Seemed kind of pissed off actually. This is actually the first time I've EVER been pulled over too.

So my question for you: how long has your car been in Quebec? Because your car has 60 days (not 90 btw...they apparently changed it) for which your car must be registered. (you don't need to answer this )
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