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      10-04-2010, 03:18 PM   #23
E92westy
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Told you so.



If I wasn't in a department about to lose 40% of it's staff before April, I'd laugh even more...
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      10-04-2010, 03:23 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Mike in Hampshire View Post
Ok then - don't buy a brand new Trident nuclear system costing 20 billion.
Yes keep the nuclear deterrent, buy a system from the USA, or B&Q or whoever - lets say 5 billion.

There you go then, 15 billion saved. Sorted.

Of course, didn't Clegg promise the DibLems would do just that when elected? Funny how that's all gone quiet now they share power.

Mike.
Trident is American and we buy the missiles and a large part of the submarine from them. 20Bn is a cheap insurance policy spread over 25 years.
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      10-04-2010, 03:23 PM   #25
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Suggestions on how else to say over 1bn on a postcard then please...

I just don't see what it's for. Why should the relatively well off (ish) with kids get money back?

44k not much? It's a decent amount if you haven't taken the route of mortgaging and debting yourself up to the eyeballs as the previous government fell over themselves to encourage.
No bonuses for state owned banks! There's 6bn to start.

If you remember back it was Maggie Thatcher who started people having to get mortgages when she sold off the council houses.
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      10-04-2010, 03:25 PM   #26
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if youve paid in your entitled to take out no matter how much you earn, but we have to rmember who got us into this shit and it was not the tories! i hope they target the workshy next.
Well it wasn't Labour who caused the world wide credit crisis!!!
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      10-04-2010, 03:27 PM   #27
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Trident is American and we buy the missiles and a large part of the submarine from them. 20Bn is a cheap insurance policy spread over 25 years.
Er, so what? Buy a cheaper system. We don't need a Rolls Royce, a BMW (!) will do.

5 bn is cheaper than 20 bn, Trident is a luxury we can't afford.

And anyway, Nick Clegg agrees with me, no? Unless he's given up his beliefs now he's in power.

Mike.
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      10-04-2010, 03:29 PM   #28
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Remember that what we're trying to cut here is the deficit, not spending. SOrry if I keep explaining this on various posts, but its important that people can ignore the politics and understand the economics. The deficit is the gap between our income (tax receipts) and outgoings - and as we haven't suddenly started spending an additional 180bn a year we weren't doing before, its obvious that the gap is tax receipts falling through the floor due to the recession.

Think about it. We lost the tax paid on the vast profits from the city. We lost the tax paid by the million people who lost their jobs. We lost the tax paid on all the things these people used to buy. Never mind basic maths and sanity like this, we know it to be true because we cut 20bn off the deficit before the election thanks to the end of the recession bringing in higher than expected tax revenues.

Its much easier to grow away the deficit than cut it away. 1bn of aditional tax receipts means growth. Which means more people in work spending money. Which means more people in work etc etc. Or you can cut 1bn worth of jobs, lose that tax revenue, pay more benefits and away we go again.

So how would I raise the 1bn? Well I wouldn't object to 40% taxpayers like me losing child benefit if it was done on income. Make is that that households earning north of the 40% threshhold lose the benefi and you wouldn't be haing this discussion as it would be seen as fair.

But if Osborne wanted the cash, why did he let Vodafone off its 6bn tax bill? Why is he hacking so many tax inspector jobs at HMRC? Its almost as if the government has no interest in collecting taxes from the fabulously wealthy and wants to make the rest of us suffer instead. A Tory government. That can't be the case.....
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      10-04-2010, 03:39 PM   #29
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Look people, its not rocket science. A national budget is NOT the same as a household budget. If we all stop spending money then businesses go bust, more people lose their jobs, and we have even less money coming in. Most families have a fixed budget because their income doesn't change. A country has a variable income level which means it can increase its income in a way that families can't.

So ignore Tory politicians who tell you they need to run GBPLC like you run your home. Its economically insane. Don't believe me? Go look at Ireland. Big deficit, so slash spending, so reduce the amount of money in circulation so increase unemployment and the ability of business to create jobs so crash your economy so end up with a deficit thats now 33% of your rapidly shrinking GDP so end up bankrupt.

Ireland has done what the IMF told them to do, what Oik wants the UK to do. And has bankrupted itself. We can't go bankrupt as unlike Ireland we print the currency that our debt is denominated in (and most of the money is owned to UK pension funds). But we can cripple our economy like them.

We need to cut spending, course we do. But not to the detriment of growth. Ask Baronet Oik what growth he is protecting. Well, he claims that the private sector will create 2.5m jobs in 4 years to make it alright. Yet in 10 years of boom they managed to create just 1.4m jobs.......
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      10-04-2010, 03:42 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Mike in Hampshire View Post
Er, so what? Buy a cheaper system. We don't need a Rolls Royce, a BMW (!) will do.

5 bn is cheaper than 20 bn, Trident is a luxury we can't afford.

And anyway, Nick Clegg agrees with me, no? Unless he's given up his beliefs now he's in power.

Mike.
Unfortunately maintaining an independent nuclear capability is a very expensive business but IMHO it is essential. We live in a world full of nutters and you never know what is around the corner as regards war. Twenty five years ago it was unimaginable to think of where we are fighting today. Saddam was an ally! (Yes I know that we are no longer in Iraq)

The good thing is that despite the missiles being American it should provide a lot of British manufacturing jobs building the submarines. ( or Bombers as we call them in the trade)
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      10-04-2010, 04:45 PM   #31
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For a family with one parent working and the second looking after children, withdrawing child benefit is basically an additional tax. The Tories said that they would not do this before the election, but as we can all now see they are a bunch of lying tosspots.

So .. in 2013 my family will effectively pay 1792 additional tax.

It's clearly not going to break us, but it is going to be a noticable drop in disposable income. I already pay a LOT of tax and I don't see why I should be forced to pay more by a cack handed, back door, badly conceived, inherently unfair arrangement like this one.

It's not my fault that the government pisses away our tax money on a pathetically wasteful, badly managed, shambolic and inefectual welfare system. So why should my family have to pay to sort it out?
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      10-04-2010, 04:47 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Rochdale Pioneers View Post
We need to cut spending, course we do. But not to the detriment of growth. Ask Baronet Oik what growth he is protecting. Well, he claims that the private sector will create 2.5m jobs in 4 years to make it alright. Yet in 10 years of boom they managed to create just 1.4m jobs.......
Osbourne is both stupid and dangerous.
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      10-04-2010, 04:59 PM   #33
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<snip> he claims that the private sector will create 2.5m jobs in 4 years to make it alright. Yet in 10 years of boom they managed to create just 1.4m jobs.......<snip>
Here's the rub.
I'm a civil engineer for a local authority.
Our funding is slashed, we sack people.
We don't put our excess design work out to consulting engineers as usual, they sack people.
We don't build as many projects, our contractors sack people.
Our contractors dont buy as much materials, hire plant etc , so the suppliers sack people.
I don't have any money to spend in the shops, so they sack people.
This goes for all the consultants / contractors / suppliers...

Double dip?
You ain't seen fuckin' nothing yet...........



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      10-04-2010, 05:29 PM   #34
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Unfortunatly I dont agree with all the tax credit stuff, if you want kids then have them but dont expect the government to help you out. At the end of the day it's everyones choice whether to have kids, if you cant afford it then dont do it. And to say tax the higher earners just drives me mad, why should anyone that doesnt have kids pay for other people to have kids.

I am sure my opinion will pi** some people off but to me it's simple, if you cant afford to have kids then dont have them.
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      10-04-2010, 05:35 PM   #35
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Unfortunatly I dont agree with all the tax credit stuff, if you want kids then have them but dont expect the government to help you out. At the end of the day it's everyones choice whether to have kids, if you cant afford it then dont do it. And to say tax the higher earners just drives me mad, why should anyone that doesnt have kids pay for other people to have kids.

I am sure my opinion will pi** some people off but to me it's simple, if you cant afford to have kids then dont have them.
I guess you don't have kids but earn well then!!
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      10-04-2010, 05:41 PM   #36
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Unfortunatly I dont agree with all the tax credit stuff, if you want kids then have them but dont expect the government to help you out. At the end of the day it's everyones choice whether to have kids, if you cant afford it then dont do it. And to say tax the higher earners just drives me mad, why should anyone that doesnt have kids pay for other people to have kids.

I am sure my opinion will pi** some people off but to me it's simple, if you cant afford to have kids then dont have them.
+1. I'm sick of my tax pounds going on everyone else's kids.
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      10-04-2010, 05:43 PM   #37
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+1. I'm sick of my tax pounds going on everyone else's kids.
Who do you think will support the welfare stare when you retire?
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      10-04-2010, 05:45 PM   #38
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I guess you don't have kids but earn well then!!
Both my partner and I are both in the 40% tax bracket but we dont earn fortunes. We are looking at having kids as well so it's not that either, my point is that if you want something pay for it yourself dont expect others to pick up the tab. If my partner and I were to have a little that is what we would do. It's only my opinion and everyone has one
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      10-04-2010, 05:51 PM   #39
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Who do you think will support the welfare stare when you retire?
Well if we can keep Labour out for long enough, there won't be too much of a welfare state that will need supporting
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      10-04-2010, 05:52 PM   #40
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Who do you think will support the welfare stare when you retire?
Is that not what a pensions for? Sorry but the more the government pay out for stuff like this the more people will sit at home thinking they are better of not working as they get more money than minimum wage. How about this for a saving method, anyone thats cant be arsed to go to work ban them from having big T.V's and sky!!! BIG SAVING THERE!!

I was on holiday a few months back and one of the people we met was out there on her benifits, left the kids at home and gone on holiday with her mates!!!
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      10-04-2010, 05:54 PM   #41
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This is going to hit me. I was going to say "lying tossers" but I'm not that surprised. Politicians - all the same.
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      10-04-2010, 11:32 PM   #42
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The good thing is that despite the missiles being American it should provide a lot of British manufacturing jobs building the submarines. ( or Bombers as we call them in the trade)
I work in that very shipyard at the moment, it may surprise you that it only employs 5000 people though. Not sure about the supply chain, it will be significant but not that huge.

Are you qualified enough to call them 'Bombers'?
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      10-05-2010, 02:15 AM   #43
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Is that not what a pensions for? Sorry but the more the government pay out for stuff like this the more people will sit at home thinking they are better of not working as they get more money than minimum wage. How about this for a saving method, anyone thats cant be arsed to go to work ban them from having big T.V's and sky!!! BIG SAVING THERE!!

I was on holiday a few months back and one of the people we met was out there on her benifits, left the kids at home and gone on holiday with her mates!!!
If you work now, your taxes pay for the state pension and NHS treatment of the older generation. Without a younger generation the welfare state will collapse. I was responding to Chris_s1 as without everyone elses kids, there will be no-one to buy him a new hip in 60 years time.

I entirely agree that people should never be better off on benefits than in work.

What I disagree with is having my family taxed extra, when I already pay more than my fair share and when the sneaky lying toerags responsible promised not to do this before the election.

The real issue is the stupidity of the Tory approach. Osbourne has admitted that it is completely unfair, but says its 'too complicated' to do it properly. The man is a moron.

Oh .. and rubber faced whinger Cameron wants me to voluntarily give up our child benefit now rather than wait till 2013, so I can 'do my bit' to reduce the debt. He can f*ck right off. I'll give up my child benefit when he gives up both of his free houses.

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      10-05-2010, 02:37 AM   #44
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The real issue is the stupidity of the Tory approach. Osbourne has admitted that it is completely unfair, but says its 'too complicated' to do it properly. The man is a moron.

Oh .. and rubber faced whinger Cameron wants me to voluntarily give up our child benefit now rather than wait till 2013, so I can 'do my bit' to reduce the debt. He can f*ck right off. I'll give up my child benefit when he gives up both of his free houses.

I am a true blue Tory, but I have to say I agree with this sentiment NFS. There is no way I am giving up Child Benefit earllier than I have to. There is a lot more that can be done at a higher level before cuts should directly impacts on working peoples lives. They should start to sell off all the State owned Banks NOW - UKFI should be told to get on with it. Privatise the TOTE, Met Office, BBC, sell Govt stakes in any private Company (QINETIC for example). Thise things would raise huge sums and have a minimal effect on ordinary people. Saving 1Bn on Child Allowance, and pissing off the HARD WORKING Middle classes will backfire big time.
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