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      10-05-2010, 05:10 PM   #89
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Cameron is likely to introduce tax allowance sharing for married couples, which would be great, but again, in an incredibly unfair twist, it appears that this will not be for higher rate taxpayers.
This is the thing that's got so many of us wound up, either they're stupid or they think we are.

Not a good start for them, IMHO.

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The problem is that people who earn 30k a year think that someone earning 60k a year is loaded. Unfortunately, in my experience a nice pay rise is not quite as life changing as you expect when you have to hand 40% of it straight to Osbourne so that he can piss it up the wall.
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      10-05-2010, 06:00 PM   #90
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The problem is that people who earn 30k a year think that someone earning 60k a year is loaded. Unfortunately, in my experience a nice pay rise is not quite as life changing as you expect when you have to hand 40% of it straight to Osbourne so that he can piss it up the wall.
While I agree with the sentiment the reality is quite different.

The difference between 30,000 and 60,000 a year is around 1,600 a month (and that's after tax). That's a big difference no matter how you look at it.

If we all lived in 2 up 2 down Victorian terraces that cost 170,000 and drove Ford Mondeos then those on 60,000 a year would be rolling in it, imagine the disposable income they'd have.

But they don't, they live in 3/4+ bedroom semidetached houses and (in the case of this forum) drive BMWs, Audis, Mercedes and various other "premium" brand cars.

This is why those on 30,000 look at those on 60,000 with an element of envy.

That said, I'm not saying I don't agree with you. Like I said, it will always be the "middle" get takes the brunt of it.

The government can't take anything off the very poor because they don't have anything to take. If you strip them of various benefits/housing then you run the risk of creating pockets of poverty where the standard of living would be utterly unbearable. I am sure we can all agree, that is not the kind of country we want to live in.

The government can't screw businesses and the very rich because they're too influential. And even if they did try and tax the shit out of them they'd simply relocate their businesses/change their residency status to avoid any hikes.


So that leaves us, you and I. Included in this infamous "middle" is basically every man and woman on the street who dares to work for a living. Pretty much everyone on PAYE gets boned.

Now if you're earning much beyond 60,000 a year I think you have a little less to complain about than if you're earning less than that. Though I do appreciate that handing over 40% of your hard earned to HMRC is difficult to stomach when in return all you receive a set of sub-standard public services and MPs/public servants who are simply out to milk the system for all it's worth.

And if you're a business owner/self-employed/sole trader I think there are plenty of legal, not so legal and other (somewhat) grey, mechanisms by which you can save a shitload of money. Whether it be using your Costco account to buy stuff for home or because you pay fuck all NI or get creative with your accounts.

PAYE earners get the shaft, from the guy earning minimum wage flipping burgers at McDonalds to the educated professional who makes 50,000 a year.

In this particular instance, they're screwing the 40% rate group, which I happen to fall into. But I do not doubt for one moment that those in lower (and higher) brackets will also get hit, it's just a matter of time.
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      10-06-2010, 03:18 AM   #91
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heard a story on the news a while ago about a millionaire being lambasted for claiming his state pension as he didnt need it, in response he said he was born poor and worked his socks off to get where he was (obviously not a labour supporter!!) but when he started in business he still had to pay his NI contributions and could have done with that money for himself, so his argument was he paid for it so he was damned well going to claim it. respect!
So then, are you implying labour supporters dont work their socks off!!!!

If so then you are a bigger bellend than you come across.

I was born with fuck all and ive grafted hard very hard to live where i do, to employ others and give them a vehicle to support their families. and yup i support labour.
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      10-06-2010, 04:36 AM   #92
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      10-06-2010, 11:01 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by toxicnerve View Post
While I agree with the sentiment the reality is quite different.

The difference between 30,000 and 60,000 a year is around 1,600 a month (and that's after tax). That's a big difference no matter how you look at it.

If we all lived in 2 up 2 down Victorian terraces that cost 170,000 and drove Ford Mondeos then those on 60,000 a year would be rolling in it, imagine the disposable income they'd have.

But they don't, they live in 3/4+ bedroom semidetached houses and (in the case of this forum) drive BMWs, Audis, Mercedes and various other "premium" brand cars.

This is why those on 30,000 look at those on 60,000 with an element of envy.

That said, I'm not saying I don't agree with you. Like I said, it will always be the "middle" get takes the brunt of it.

The government can't take anything off the very poor because they don't have anything to take. If you strip them of various benefits/housing then you run the risk of creating pockets of poverty where the standard of living would be utterly unbearable. I am sure we can all agree, that is not the kind of country we want to live in.

The government can't screw businesses and the very rich because they're too influential. And even if they did try and tax the shit out of them they'd simply relocate their businesses/change their residency status to avoid any hikes.


So that leaves us, you and I. Included in this infamous "middle" is basically every man and woman on the street who dares to work for a living. Pretty much everyone on PAYE gets boned.

Now if you're earning much beyond 60,000 a year I think you have a little less to complain about than if you're earning less than that. Though I do appreciate that handing over 40% of your hard earned to HMRC is difficult to stomach when in return all you receive a set of sub-standard public services and MPs/public servants who are simply out to milk the system for all it's worth.

And if you're a business owner/self-employed/sole trader I think there are plenty of legal, not so legal and other (somewhat) grey, mechanisms by which you can save a shitload of money. Whether it be using your Costco account to buy stuff for home or because you pay fuck all NI or get creative with your accounts.

PAYE earners get the shaft, from the guy earning minimum wage flipping burgers at McDonalds to the educated professional who makes 50,000 a year.

In this particular instance, they're screwing the 40% rate group, which I happen to fall into. But I do not doubt for one moment that those in lower (and higher) brackets will also get hit, it's just a matter of time.
Well put, Ill vote for you if you ever go into politics
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      10-06-2010, 11:56 AM   #94
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So then, are you implying labour supporters dont work their socks off!!!!

If so then you are a bigger bellend than you come across.

I was born with fuck all and ive grafted hard very hard to live where i do, to employ others and give them a vehicle to support their families. and yup i support labour.
i started off the same but i dont want to give a penny to some unemployable labour voting pot smoking beer drinking uneducated layabout with 5 kids living in a subsidised council house and yes im a conservative voter, thats the difference between us. another thing i dont swear and im not abusive, sure i hate the labour for what theyve done to this once great country but i dont call them all the names under the sun, i was brought up to respect others no matter what they believe
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      10-06-2010, 03:50 PM   #95
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i started off the same but i dont want to give a penny to some unemployable labour voting pot smoking beer drinking uneducated layabout with 5 kids living in a subsidised council house and yes im a conservative voter, thats the difference between us. another thing i dont swear and im not abusive, sure i hate the labour for what theyve done to this once great country but i dont call them all the names under the sun, i was brought up to respect others no matter what they believe
dont get all pious on me, you started the slagging off you barnpot and why does the above have to be a labour trait??

Sounds to me like YOUVE been on the pot, your talking shite.
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      10-06-2010, 05:13 PM   #96
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I also remember all the labour shit in 97

Lets be honest they are all lying thieving Cun--!.
Prescott was going to revolutionise london underground and when he was challenged on a documentary they tore him to pieces and he went right down in my opinion basically said we ain't got any money .Its what all ministers say when cornered.

Here is my opinion ,I have sent all 3 off our boys through Private education, I don't use the NHS.Have a Private pension ,Never had 1p in benefit, so where is my cash back for not using the state provided bits and pieces , I pay in but get nothing back.

My father is in a home at present costing my mum 850 per week .The country is just about fucked for some reason ,She is paying there is no hospital beds and he is dying so what use is it tying up a hospital bed ,they are needed to treat people who can be fixed.

Politics show last week on imigration caps.there was a director from a nursing home explaining 60 to 70 % of there staff were imigrants and that no English would do the jobs,My father is in a Bupa home and i reckon thats about spot on nearly all of the staff are foreign.

I was talking to a farmer last month who had about 20 Polish/Romanian students picking his sweetcorn ,I asked do you employe any local lads he said are you joking they turn up late spend all day txting or have lame excuses to go early.Cheap labour ?????. He said no they are on peace work and are bloody brilliant start at 7.30am and finished by 4 pm,Just a different work ethic.

What i am saying is i pay for everything .I dont see why i should as if my kids dont go to state school should i get a credit towards my private fees of 16 k pa for each child ,My brother just worked out it cost 220k from he nursery to leaving at 18 at current fees without extras and inflation ,

For some reason we in the UK want so much and belive we are entitled to it.

I voted tory and think it was time for a change ,I dont know what real difference it makes who is in government they all seam much the same .I did enjoy reading through what the thieving scum had stuck on there expenses last year ,just proves what i mean all the parties were at it ,greed !.


The welfare bill need sorting out and at least cameroon is trying so lets give him a chance .


If they fuck it up we could do like the french did have a revolution and guillotine the lot of them .
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      10-06-2010, 05:58 PM   #97
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While I agree with the sentiment the reality is quite different.

The difference between 30,000 and 60,000 a year is around 1,600 a month (and that's after tax). That's a big difference no matter how you look at it.
I think you are right. It sounds like a big change, but its not like winning the lottery.

If you are on 30k, you will take home 1,885 a month. On 60k that rises to 3,476 a month

So 1600 is about right. But ... anyone who makes the transition from 30k to 60K will have done so with a lot of hard work.

The reward for their efforts is a bigger mortgage and maybe a new car. Perhaps the odd holiday and a little less stress around the monthly shop.

The reality is that very few people are going to see that 1600 a month as disposable income. In reality, most households on 60k wont have a massive amount left at the end of the month. Lopping 150 off that by removing child benefit is a nasty kick in the teeth for people who have worked hard to better themselves and their families.

We are not talking about rich people here. Just normal hard working families.
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      10-06-2010, 06:27 PM   #98
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I think you are right. It sounds like a big change, but its not like winning the lottery.

If you are on 30k, you will take home 1,885 a month. On 60k that rises to 3,476 a month

So 1600 is about right. But ... anyone who makes the transition from 30k to 60K will have done so with a lot of hard work.

The reward for their efforts is a bigger mortgage and maybe a new car. Perhaps the odd holiday and a little less stress around the monthly shop.

The reality is that very few people are going to see that 1600 a month as disposable income. In reality, most households on 60k wont have a massive amount left at the end of the month. Lopping 150 off that by removing child benefit is a nasty kick in the teeth for people who have worked hard to better themselves and their families.

We are not talking about rich people here. Just normal hard working families.
Oh I totally agree.

I think the government see people earning in that sort of bracket (45,000-60,000 odd) are the easiest group to target.

If you're earning less than that then small losses are more difficult to absorb.

If you're earning more than that then you're probably higher up the food chain at work/a business owner/self-employed and can get creative with how you take your income/reduce your tax exposure.

The government is very atuned to this fact so chooses to go for the easiest target. Those that can absorb a loss but can't dictate/manipulate how they get paid.
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      10-07-2010, 12:45 AM   #99
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What i am saying is i pay for everything .I dont see why i should as if my kids dont go to state school should i get a credit towards my private fees of 16 k pa for each child ,My brother just worked out it cost 220k from he nursery to leaving at 18 at current fees without extras and inflation ,

For some reason we in the UK want so much and belive we are entitled to it.
You've basically got two choices. Stop participating in society, pull up sticks, build that wall around you to protect yourself from the rest of us, or try and improve things. There are plenty of tax havens in the world if you truly want to pay no tax. Or if you want to be part of a society you have to pay your way - its called citizenship.

Whoever said that you get back every penny you put in? Anyway, you're the one opting not to receive the education and healthcare you're entitled to - noone forcing you to do that.

Your comments on entitlement in the wider sense are spot on though. Too many people think they don't have to work. That needs to change.
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      10-07-2010, 01:02 AM   #100
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my choice

I fully accept its my choice to have sent the children through private education and swallow the costs associated with that,

I honestly dont mind paying my share ,but in my simple world i dont want to see every day in he papers about people on benefit doing so well ,free housing and 7 kids its rediculous, I accept this is the minority but the system is flawed ,I dont profess to know the answers,but it is wrong,


I dont think anyone can blame the tory party for the imigration allowed over the last 10 years.All these people have to be living somewhere proberbly in rented houses and we know who will be paying there rent ,welfare system, I also accept that there are plenty that have come here and do work and contribute.

My neighbour is a GP he was saying last christmas how many people he sees that basically want putting on disabillity or signed off so they dont have to go to work ,And i is proven that people should work for the feel good factor,but when you can obtain as much on benefits there has to be a certain attraction.
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      10-07-2010, 01:05 AM   #101
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I think this week could be a double whammy, I wonder what is about to happen to my Public Sector occupational pension.......
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      10-07-2010, 01:58 AM   #102
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I dont think anyone can blame the tory party for the imigration allowed over the last 10 years.
The Tories supported free movement of labour within the EU, because big companies like Tesco were asking for it. I always felt that it was a recipe for disaster. Historically, when times get hard, societies tend to blame their problems on immigrants. Its human nature.

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I think this week could be a double whammy, I wonder what is about to happen to my Public Sector occupational pension.......
I fear that its not going to be good. Final salary pensions are long gone in the private sector and they are almost certainly going to go in the public sector as well. Our aging population makes them unafordable.

Yesterday I read that the tax allowance sharing mentioned by Cameron was unlikely to be more that 750 and not available to higher rate taxpayers. So only worth 150 a year per couple.

They are also looking to reduce higher rate tax relief of private pensions.

I thought that they planned to reduce waste? Instead they seem to be screwing the people who supported them.
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      10-07-2010, 02:13 AM   #103
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dont get all pious on me, you started the slagging off you barnpot and why does the above have to be a labour trait??

Sounds to me like YOUVE been on the pot, your talking shite.
i find you, your comments, inability to deabte and your foul language extremely offensive and see no point in answering you.
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      10-07-2010, 02:34 AM   #104
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      10-07-2010, 04:33 AM   #105
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I fully accept its my choice to have sent the children through private education and swallow the costs associated with that,

I honestly dont mind paying my share ,but in my simple world i dont want to see every day in he papers about people on benefit doing so well ,free housing and 7 kids its rediculous, I accept this is the minority but the system is flawed ,I dont profess to know the answers,but it is wrong,


I dont think anyone can blame the tory party for the imigration allowed over the last 10 years.All these people have to be living somewhere proberbly in rented houses and we know who will be paying there rent ,welfare system, I also accept that there are plenty that have come here and do work and contribute.

My neighbour is a GP he was saying last christmas how many people he sees that basically want putting on disabillity or signed off so they dont have to go to work ,And i is proven that people should work for the feel good factor,but when you can obtain as much on benefits there has to be a certain attraction.
I totally agree with you here, I claim nothing of the government and use my own health care, have my own pension etc... I pay lots in and I really don't get a lot back. My other half can basically work anywhere in the world and I can't lie we are considering moving away as this country really is well and truly screwed. I really have nothing against people wanting to come here and work it's the people that come here to sponge is what drives me mad...

I know they are talking about pensions now and what really shocks me is the amount public sector workers get... Why do you guys get so much more than private pensions? (Question not a flaming exercise )
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      10-07-2010, 05:18 AM   #106
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I love this country, I don't think we do too badly (banking crisis excepted) as UK citizens.

Look at his picture, then breeeeathe deeply...



It's all going to be okay...
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      10-07-2010, 05:23 AM   #107
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Interesting. There are a lot of different arguments (by that I mean points of discussion) developing in this thread.

So a few questions to the panel.

1. How much would the government save by cutting:

1% off all public sector salaries for those earning between minimum wage and 50,000.
2% for all those earning 50,000-70,000.
3% for all those earning 70,000-100,000.
5% for all those earning 100,000 and above

2. Do public sector staff receive bonuses of any sort? I assume some top level civil servants do? Stop this, how much would that save?

3. The Government is happy to levy taxes in the name of "green" initiatives. If this is the case then how about taxing companies with their own premises who leave the lights on overnight? I drive around London a fair bit and have noticed that many, many buildings have a lot of lights on at night. Now I know for a fact that these large buildings have control system to automatically control lighting. Why are so many lights left on, how much energy does this waste and could a tax be applied to this?

4. Convicted criminals and those on benefits should be "employed" to serve the community. They should receive no pay for this but simply in return for their benefits/as a consequence of their incarceration people should be expected to feed something back into society. Is this workable? Almost like American chain-gangs but, I daresay, with a greater level of dignity.

5. Foreign drivers, be they here for personal or commercial reasons, should be charged for the use of our roads. Many European countries do this. Why does the UK not? How much would this raise? Every little helps right?

6. The financial crisis has cost this country (and the world) a lot of money. The state now owns a large chunk of our banks and the rest of them are basically reliant on government insurances/assurances. How much are we taxing them? Should it be more? Should the law be changed to limit bonuses until the cost of the bailout has been repayed with interest?

7. The Government is the biggest organisation going. Do they have a centralised procurement strategy or are departments responsible for their own sourcing? Be it sourcing of labour, post-its, biros or loo roll. With the buying power of an entire government/all public services how much money could be saved? I appreciate there would be some logistics overhead but I think overall there woudl be some money saved right?

8. Every single government department/public service needs auditing. There are always inefficiencies in organisations of this size and these should be addressed before we start cutting public spending. If the MP's expenses scandal highlighted anything it's that there are people at all levels who will take advantage of the system. Let's start by looking at the public services which we pay for.

I could go on all day...cutting public spending is the quick and easy way to save money. The more difficult, yet ultimately more rewarding (and palatable for the public) ways are to save/raise revenue by exposing the inefficiencies that exist.
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      10-07-2010, 06:02 AM   #108
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Interesting. There are a lot of different arguments (by that I mean points of discussion) developing in this thread.

So a few questions to the panel.

1. How much would the government save by cutting:

1% off all public sector salaries for those earning between minimum wage and 50,000.
2% for all those earning 50,000-70,000.
3% for all those earning 70,000-100,000.
5% for all those earning 100,000 and above

2. Do public sector staff receive bonuses of any sort? I assume some top level civil servants do? Stop this, how much would that save?

3. The Government is happy to levy taxes in the name of "green" initiatives. If this is the case then how about taxing companies with their own premises who leave the lights on overnight? I drive around London a fair bit and have noticed that many, many buildings have a lot of lights on at night. Now I know for a fact that these large buildings have control system to automatically control lighting. Why are so many lights left on, how much energy does this waste and could a tax be applied to this?

4. Convicted criminals and those on benefits should be "employed" to serve the community. They should receive no pay for this but simply in return for their benefits/as a consequence of their incarceration people should be expected to feed something back into society. Is this workable? Almost like American chain-gangs but, I daresay, with a greater level of dignity.

5. Foreign drivers, be they here for personal or commercial reasons, should be charged for the use of our roads. Many European countries do this. Why does the UK not? How much would this raise? Every little helps right?

6. The financial crisis has cost this country (and the world) a lot of money. The state now owns a large chunk of our banks and the rest of them are basically reliant on government insurances/assurances. How much are we taxing them? Should it be more? Should the law be changed to limit bonuses until the cost of the bailout has been repayed with interest?

7. The Government is the biggest organisation going. Do they have a centralised procurement strategy or are departments responsible for their own sourcing? Be it sourcing of labour, post-its, biros or loo roll. With the buying power of an entire government/all public services how much money could be saved? I appreciate there would be some logistics overhead but I think overall there woudl be some money saved right?

8. Every single government department/public service needs auditing. There are always inefficiencies in organisations of this size and these should be addressed before we start cutting public spending. If the MP's expenses scandal highlighted anything it's that there are people at all levels who will take advantage of the system. Let's start by looking at the public services which we pay for.

I could go on all day...cutting public spending is the quick and easy way to save money. The more difficult, yet ultimately more rewarding (and palatable for the public) ways are to save/raise revenue by exposing the inefficiencies that exist.
Good post.

I would also advocate having an Accountant at EVERY hospital/doctors clinic to greet the 'customers'..

Accountant... "Good morning, I see you are not a British(EU) Citizen, do not pay British taxes and reside abroad"...

Patient (foreign)/... "what, (Qu, Si, yeah, Oui)?"

Accountant.... " I am happy to accept Amex/Mastercard/Visa or Cash...sorry no diners club vouchers......... no pay no treatment...have a nice day"


Wonder how much that would raise?
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      10-07-2010, 06:04 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by 335diesel View Post
I love this country, I don't think we do too badly (banking crisis excepted) as UK citizens.

Look at his picture, then breeeeathe deeply...



It's all going to be okay...
You mean Uk citizens who can afford to live near the coast in the lovely south west?


Plenty like this round the corner from our 'nice' middle class street.....


Last edited by doughboy; 10-07-2010 at 06:25 AM.
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      10-07-2010, 07:05 AM   #110
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2. Do public sector staff receive bonuses of any sort? I assume some top level civil servants do? Stop this, how much would that save?

.
May I ask why stop bonuses of the public sector? Bonuses are there to drive performance (same as in the private sector) - do you not see an issue with stopping them?
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