[Ilma]

Originally Posted by dzenno

Ilma, let me try to answer this as if I was a fanboy of another tune that didn't have timing control: "with the "right" tuning why would you want to add in -1 timing retard...we don't see a need for that level of control and the DME will do it all for you"

For me, having a smooth upward sloping timing curve with no dips means there are no knock events and the combustion chamber is happy.

You very well know that the DME targets a standard stock curve and will pull out timing in reaction to knock......because as we all know the DME listens for knock.

Up to the user whether they want to reactively have timing adjusted in reaction to knock or whether they want to proactively introduce enough timing correction so as to avoid the knock event.

So fine tuning by 1-2 degrees on a traditional timing curve that advances up to 12-14 degrees is proportionally a significant adjusment.

You should not minimize the magnitude of such an adjustment.

Based on 12 degrees of advance, even just 1 degree of adjustment translates into a change of 8%, 2 degrees = 16% etc.

Hell, there are vendors and members on here that say a 10 HP increase in power is a good gain.....yet that amounts to only a 3% gain in power on 300 HP.

So to me, it is statistically significant.

Of course, this ignores the entire argument of using meth as a form of timing control. And it also ignores that at some point, even the Procede has a limited range upon which to influence timing if you run too much boost for your mods and octane.

I was simply responding to the earlier post that both JB and Procede are basically the same.

But to each their own.

[shiv@vishnu]

Originally Posted by cstavaru

Unfortunately, it is true. JB3 is *almost* as good as Procede at 1/2-1/3 of the cost, no matter how someone would wash your brain.

Procede is more expensive because they don't manufacture their product and they use a Haltech device as a base instead. So they have to add their own profits on top of the original manufacturer profits. The only thing Procede has better than the JB3 is the "timing control", which adds/removes timing on top of the ECU timing (so it does not control it fully). Most of the time when running on proper bolt-ons the Procede does not alter timing, so in those cases it is equivalent to the JB3. The CAN boost target access is another plus but JB3 emulates the boost target very very well these days.

That's it. The other things besides the power adding stuff really don't matter, they are just marketing gimmicks.

PS: I have the BMW PPK and I intend to go with GIAC. It's just easy to see how the marketing washes brains on this forum.

Bad/wrong info on all accounts.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by BrianMN

So BMS has claimed that the JB3 Pro will be able to do everything the current competitors (Procede) can do, and even more... Can you give up a few hints of these 'features' that currently are unavailable with the procede?

With the recent advancements with the Procede Command Center, with all the adaptation resets, Autotuning, shift light, dash gauges, etc., I just can't what BMS has up their sleeve that's not out. It must be pretty stellar.

Both the G4 and PRO have the BMS equivalent with code clearing, code reading in dash, adaption resets, airbag resets, shift light, in dash gauges including timing, boost, IAT, EGT, etc. One of the main differences with the PRO board will be how methanol is controlled and what is required to control it.

Mike

[shiv@vishnu]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

Both the G4 and PRO have the BMS equivalent with code clearing, code reading in dash, adaption resets, airbag resets, shift light, in dash gauges including timing, boost, IAT, EGT, etc. One of the main differences with the PRO board will be how methanol is controlled and what is required to control it.

Mike

You don't consider timing control/cps offset and isolated boost control to be one of the main differences? Seems that you are purposely underplaying their advantages in an attempt to gloss over two of the biggest limitations present in the jb3 platform.

Shiv

[cstavaru]

Originally Posted by Ilma

Tell me how you would add-in 1 degree of timing retard with the current JB or even GIAC for that case?

I would never ever play with the settings and instead I would let the tuners do this for me (one of the reasons I'm considering GIAC). Why ? Because altering the settings (like adding 1 degree of timing) means just changing to a different, UNTESTED map from the millions of maps that you can create by altering settings. Do you think that the tuners test every combination of settings ? There are millions if not more of them. There is no need for me to be a test mule...

[shiv@vishnu]

Originally Posted by cstavaru

I would never ever play with the settings and instead I would let the tuners do this for me (one of the reasons I'm considering GIAC). Why ? Because altering the settings (like adding 1 degree of timing) means just changing to a different, UNTESTED map from the millions of maps that you can create by altering settings. Do you think that the tuners test every combination of settings ? There are millions if not more of them. There is no need for me to be a test mule...

Once you have a tune that is based solidly upon basic engine tuning theory, you don't have to worry about thing. Also, I'd urge you to educate yourself more on this subject before making the arguments that you are making. Ilma just asked you how you would make your tune more conservative. You responded that you can't/wouldn't because that could be potentially dangerous.

Shiv

[BrianMN]

Originally Posted by cstavaru

I would never ever play with the settings and instead I would let the tuners do this for me (one of the reasons I'm considering GIAC). Why ? Because altering the settings (like adding 1 degree of timing) means just changing to a different, UNTESTED map from the millions of maps that you can create by altering settings. Do you think that the tuners test every combination of settings ? There are millions if not more of them. There is no need for me to be a test mule...

You're not getting, at all, What ilma was saying. No point in making a dumb argument When What you're arguing isn't even relevant.

[cstavaru]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Also, I'd urge you to educate yourself more on this subject before making the arguments that you are making. Ilma just asked you how you would make your tune more conservative. You responded that you can't/wouldn't because that could be potentially dangerous.

I suppose you are aware that retarding timing increases your EGTs because the fuel mixture is hotter/still burning when the exhaust valves open ?

I am sure (and I really hope so) that in the tuning process you are also looking at the EGTs while looking at knock and power, when studying the effects of excessive ignition retard that could possibly be triggered by an unsuspecting customer trying to make his tune more "conservative".

[shiv@vishnu]

Originally Posted by cstavaru

I suppose you are aware that retarding timing increases your EGTs because the fuel mixture is hotter/still burning when the exhaust valves open ?

I am sure (and I really hope so) that in the tuning process you are also looking at the EGTs while looking at knock and power, when studying the effects of excessive ignition retard that could possibly be triggered by an unsuspecting customer trying to make his tune more "conservative".

oh god. Stop it. We limit the amount of retard that a customer can induce. Even at the maximum, it's far less than the DME would reactively induce in a full boost/low octane condition. And you don't see anyone with burned exhaust valves with these engines. Only broken ring lands from knock.

[GaryS]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

We limit the amount of retard that a customer can induce.

If only JB3 would do that too.

[Brian135i]

Lol...

[lawdude]

Just dropped in to see how things were. Somebody posts about a problem. Tuners co-opt the thead and start telling how clueless the other side is. Pretty much the same as it's been for the past 4 years.

[techlogik]

Originally Posted by lawdude

Just dropped in to see how things were. Somebody posts about a problem. Tuners co-opt the thead and start telling how clueless the other side is. Pretty much the same as it's been for the past 4 years.

I don't think that is accurate at all. We all know Shiv has a clue what he is talking about and does. Anybody that doubts this is a complete imbecil and clueless.

It is usually Shiv pointing out technically the lack of sophistication of the JB product and tuner. Which you can't argue with, if you do, you are trying to hide something, or are obviously biased or misleading people.

Nobody has jumped on GIAC yet...that is good, because you would also be a moron if you did.

[lawdude]

Originally Posted by techlogik

I don't think that is accurate at all. We all know Shiv has a clue what he is talking about and does. Anybody that doubts this is a complete imbecil and clueless.

It is usually Shiv pointing out technically the lack of sophistication of the JB product and tuner. Which you can't argue with, if you do, you are trying to hide something, or are obviously biased or misleading people.

Nobody has jumped on GIAC yet...that is good, because you would also be a moron if you did.

I think you misunderstood what I wrote. BTW, you misspelled "imbecile".

[badass335]

Originally Posted by lawdude

Just dropped in to see how things were. Somebody posts about a problem. Tuners co-opt the thead and start telling how clueless the other side is. Pretty much the same as it's been for the past 4 years.

You know the sad part though.... We never got any smart ass remarks/ sayings though... You sure you're the 'original' lawdude?

[Ilma]

Oh lawdude......we miss your zingers for sure.....

And just for the record CSTAVARU, I have used flash software very similar to GIAC in the past on a VAG platform.

APR and REVO are major competitors to GIAC in this market and I have tried both.

It's interesting that you think a flash should be set it and forget it....because REVO software allowed the end-user to adjust ignition advance a few degrees and suggested that datalogs which showed timing pull of up to 2-4 degrees was considered acceptable.

I don't know what their logic was for the 2-4 degree number, but I definately recall this being the case.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by cstavaru

Unfortunately, it is true. JB3 is *almost* as good as Procede at 1/2-1/3 of the cost, no matter how someone would wash your brain.

Procede is more expensive because they don't manufacture their product and they use a Haltech device as a base instead. So they have to add their own profits on top of the original manufacturer profits. The only thing Procede has better than the JB3 is the "timing control", which adds/removes timing on top of the ECU timing (so it does not control it fully). Most of the time when running on proper bolt-ons the Procede does not alter timing, so in those cases it is equivalent to the JB3. The CAN boost target access is another plus but JB3 emulates the boost target very very well these days.

That's it. The other things besides the power adding stuff really don't matter, they are just marketing gimmicks.

PS: I have the BMW PPK and I intend to go with GIAC. It's just easy to see how the marketing washes brains on this forum.

You really need to start doing more research. BADLY!

I dont think one thing you said comes anywhere close to relevance or factual information.

We are all dumber because of your post, I award you no points.

Originally Posted by BrianMN

Prime example of a misinformed, uninformed, or choosing to be oblivious person...in exact fashion as described above. So sad/ funny/ bad.

There are things a wise man chooses to be ignorant, but tuning his car shouldn't be one g them

Yea that was probably the most uneducated, insanely wrong post I've seen to date on this forum.

Originally Posted by cstavaru

I would never ever play with the settings and instead I would let the tuners do this for me (one of the reasons I'm considering GIAC). Why ? Because altering the settings (like adding 1 degree of timing) means just changing to a different, UNTESTED map from the millions of maps that you can create by altering settings. Do you think that the tuners test every combination of settings ? There are millions if not more of them. There is no need for me to be a test mule...

IDK which one of your posts are so wrong... I think you just beat yourself here in making an even worst post. The guy asked about retarding timing and you said why would u add timing? Its a different map? LOL

You strongly need to research basic tuning. How engines work. What ignition timing is. And stop regurgitating how you think tunes work and dont work.

[ZTUNER]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

oh god. Stop it. We limit the amount of retard that a customer can induce. Even at the maximum, it's far less than the DME would reactively induce in a full boost/low octane condition. And you don't see anyone with burned exhaust valves with these engines. Only broken ring lands from knock.

If i am not midtaken enriata said at his valves were "loose" when the heads were removed. Not sure if he was refering to guides or valve seats. Either way guides or valve seats at 70 k miles is not a good sign. Valves not seating correctly is a sign of either too much carbon or burnt valves maybe due to high egts. Do you know what material the valves are made of in these motors ?

Harry

Ps i am not saying jb or proced is better etc etc. For the record i prefer flashes

[BrianMN]

Originally Posted by JPSlick

You really need to start doing more research. BADLY!

I dont think one thing you said comes anywhere close to relevance or factual information.

We are all dumber because of your post, I award you no points.




Yea that was probably the most uneducated, insanely wrong post I've seen to date on this forum.



IDK which one of your posts are so wrong... I think you just beat yourself here in making an even worst post. The guy asked about retarding timing and you said why would u add timing? Its a different map? LOL

You strongly need to research basic tuning. How engines work. What ignition timing is. And stop regurgitating how you think tunes work and dont work.

SPOT ON.

I actually chuckle at most of his/these posts. It does suck, for the unaware readers, who actually think his/those posts are legit. In fact, that's probably where he is getting his misinformation!

[techlogik]

Originally Posted by lawdude

I think you misunderstood what I wrote. BTW, you misspelled "imbecile".

Hey...I is educated...

[Mr. 5]

Originally Posted by Ilma

It's interesting that you think a flash should be set it and forget it....because REVO software allowed the end-user to adjust ignition advance a few degrees and suggested that datalogs which showed timing pull of up to 2-4 degrees was considered acceptable.

I don't know what their logic was for the 2-4 degree number, but I definately recall this being the case.

I had REVO as well, but never messed with the settings.
There were people that did and did end up running very lean.
I think they caught it though before anything major happened, but still.
You really have to know what you're doing before just bumping up settings.

[vase330]

I like to hear from the horse's own mouth (Enrita) rather than speculate. Did he post any pictures of his cooked head on here?