BMW Announces Voluntary N54 Engine (HPFP) and X5 Recall - Page 11 - BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum

stressdoc · 10-31-2010, 10:08 AM

My current failure analysis read is that ethanol exacerbates the lubrication problems of the HPFP at start up. The tolerances are extremely precise. If the pump is run dry (no fuel) for a few cycles it is just a matter of time. The whole system must be absolutely leak free; if vacuum is not maintained then air gets into pump. Inlet pipe must retain fuel. I would further speculate that heat would also exacerbate the problem -- stop and go with A/C and step, tune being risk factors that could allow pump to lose fuel before next start up.

jimk · 10-31-2010, 12:08 PM

Does the fule pump also gets it's lubricity from the engine oil? I seem to recall a diagram that showed oil flowing through the pump. This may be a coincidence but when I was running Red Line oil there were no long cranks. When I changed to the BMW oil, as part of the free scheduled maintenance, shortly after I was starting to get long cranks. This may be totally unrelated...

Tag · 10-31-2010, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stressdoc

My current failure analysis read is that ethanol exacerbates the lubrication problems of the HPFP at start up. The tolerances are extremely precise. If the pump is run dry (no fuel) for a few cycles it is just a matter of time. The whole system must be absolutely leak free; if vacuum is not maintained then air gets into pump. Inlet pipe must retain fuel. I would further speculate that heat would also exacerbate the problem -- stop and go with A/C and step, tune being risk factors that could allow pump to lose fuel before next start up.

Interesting points you bring up. I've never let my tank run low and have never had a HPFP failure in over three years. I've always wondered if using Techron prior to oil changes is good preventative maintenance measure as well?

Nikolas · 10-31-2010, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tag824

Interesting points you bring up. I've never let my tank run low and have never had a HPFP failure in over three years. I've always wondered if using Techron prior to oil changes is good preventative maintenance measure as well?

I never let mine run low either. I also only used Chevron premium 91. I returned the lease at 36K with no HPFP issues. I do live at elevation so that helps the octane rating quite a bit.

jeff2.0t · 10-31-2010, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimk

Does the fule pump also gets it's lubricity from the engine oil? I seem to recall a diagram that showed oil flowing through the pump. This may be a coincidence but when I was running Red Line oil there were no long cranks. When I changed to the BMW oil, as part of the free scheduled maintenance, shortly after I was starting to get long cranks. This may be totally unrelated...

I dont think any fuel pump gets it's lubricity from oil or any external system, the pump gets it's lubricity with the additive present in the fuel.

With the Vw TDI Bosh DI pump, the lubricity spec of the diesel in USA was lower than the lubricity spec needed by the pump, so they explode while in other country with "better" fuel they work perfectly. Some people in USA are now adding additive and it helped a lot.

Maybe they mix Ethanol or other crap in your fuel and lubricity isn't verry good.

All this scares me, I was in the market for a used 335i... but shit an older 330i with more milles worth more than a 335i, it make you wonder what the hell is going on with the 335i.

I will probably buy a slower R32 or an Audi A4 or worst case scenario a G35 coupe unless they find a permanent solution soon for this.

Good luck with this I imagine how you can feel about this... Sorry for my poor english.

Oleg · 10-31-2010, 02:29 PM

It seems to be odd that few forum members figured the probable cause of fuel pump failure but not not BMW/Bosch/etc. engineers....

Why dont other fuel pumps on regular non turbo cars fail with the same quality gas in US? Also HPFP's fail in other countries too so it's probably not related to gas quality or how often the pump is run dry.

jeff2.0t · 10-31-2010, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oleg

Why dont other fuel pumps on regular non turbo cars fail with the same quality gas in US? Also HPFP's fail in other countries too so it's probably not related to gas quality or how often the pump is run dry.

Any parts can fail and it can fail in any country. The HPFP is the 335i weak link, the pump isn't bullet proof of course, but if they only recall the HPFP in USA, chance are the magnitude of this trouble is greater there.

Oleg · 10-31-2010, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeff2.0t

Any parts can fail and it can fail in any country. The HPFP is the 335i weak link, the pump isn't bullet proof of course, but if they only recall the HPFP in USA, chance are the magnitude of this trouble is greater there.

It is a valid point, also remember US has most 335's sold. How do we know that other countries are not recalled? Another point is auto companies decide to recall if its cost is less than cost of lawsuits to settle...If there is no recall it doesnt mean that HFPF doesnt fail.

gizmo335i · 10-31-2010, 04:25 PM

Guess I'll find out soon....you'd think we here in the homeland would know..I might just drive down there and see...

BTW, there are PLENTY of x35's failing here too....I don't think gas has anything to do with it...

TheRox · 10-31-2010, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nikolas

I never let mine run low either. I also only used Chevron premium 91. I returned the lease at 36K with no HPFP issues. I do live at elevation so that helps the octane rating quite a bit.

Same here!!!

Never let the tank run less than 1/2 the gauge and never an HPFP problem in 34 000 Kms.

325i_racer · 11-01-2010, 06:59 AM

i always run dry.....no prob here...knock on the wood...

GOTHP · 11-01-2010, 09:03 AM

on my 3rd fuel pump and my car died on highway.... I almost got into accident

NOW WHAT....??? 08 335i 30k miles...

ragingclue · 11-01-2010, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GOTHP

on my 3rd fuel pump and my car died on highway.... I almost got into accident

NOW WHAT....??? 08 335i 30k miles...

Go to dealer. Get pump replaced.

Rinse. Repeat.

Jedclampet · 11-01-2010, 09:09 AM

Fwiw mine went this weekend a 2010 135. So while on hold this Sunday
am waiting for an operator on BMW assist for an extended period of time
I was told their expirences unusally long delays. When the wrecker came
some time later he informed me it was his 4th BMW turbo pick up today,
this was at 11am. He went on to say that BMW has been keeping them very busy and knew all too well of the recall. When mine went into limp mode
it was good for about a 1/2 mile and almost left me in the middle of a busy circle. I was told that his wrecking co. would be delivering my car and many others on Monday. Guess I best not plan on getting it back anytime soon.

jeff2.0t · 11-01-2010, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jedclampet

Fwiw mine went this weekend a 2010 135. So while on hold this Sunday
am waiting for an operator on BMW assist for an extended period of time
I was told their expirences unusally long delays. When the wrecker came
some time later he informed me it was his 4th BMW turbo pick up today,
this was at 11am. He went on to say that BMW has been keeping them very busy and knew all too well of the recall. When mine went into limp mode
it was good for about a 1/2 mile and almost left me in the middle of a busy circle. I was told that his wrecking co. would be delivering my car and many others on Monday. Guess I best not plan on getting it back anytime soon.

wow quite pathetic to see this...

I was told Bmw were more reliable than Audi, humm I dont think so now... I will try a used S4 this week and see, but I dont see how reliability can be worst than this. When something break and you repair it once it is sad but acceptable but making a repair that could last only 60-1000-10 000 milles no friggin way. Driving with a sword over your head or driving with this crappy pump is about the same.

SCMike · 11-01-2010, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jedclampet

Fwiw mine went this weekend a 2010 135. So while on hold this Sunday
am waiting for an operator on BMW assist for an extended period of time
I was told their expirences unusally long delays. When the wrecker came
some time later he informed me it was his 4th BMW turbo pick up today,
this was at 11am. He went on to say that BMW has been keeping them very busy and knew all too well of the recall. When mine went into limp mode
it was good for about a 1/2 mile and almost left me in the middle of a busy circle. I was told that his wrecking co. would be delivering my car and many others on Monday. Guess I best not plan on getting it back anytime soon.

Just pitiful. Are any of the boyz-in-die-Aktiengesellschaft reading this? Do they just not care? Do they not realize that this makes them all look like a bunch of bozos with round, red, rubber noses and giant shoes (with apologies to professional clowns everywhere)? German engineering - mein Gesaess!

Potty_Pants · 11-01-2010, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeff2.0t

Driving with a sword over your head or driving with this crappy pump is about the same.

actually... i enjoyed your remark associating the sunroof as a sword over your head...

because the sun roofs have been known to implode

ppp

ArizSun21 · 11-01-2010, 11:18 AM

FYI: I called the BMW dealer near my office to set up an oil change and ask about getting the recall done at the same time. They told me I would need to have the letter before they did anything. I called BMW NA to see if I could get the letter sent to me early and they said I was not even in the system as the owner (I bought the car used at 30k miles) I had them update the system and they said the letters should be sent out at the end of this month. So if you did not buy the car new I guess you have to call BMW NA to get your name added to the Vin number.

gizmo335i · 11-01-2010, 01:10 PM

Why in the living hell would you need the letter?!?!!?

If your car fits the year/make....then...uh...that's it!!

Damnit, dealers do stupid shit sometimes..

galahad05 · 11-01-2010, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRox

Same here!!!

Never let the tank run less than 1/2 the gauge and never an HPFP problem in 34 000 Kms.

Holy crap, you've effectively halved your driving range, to under 200 miles between tanks.

Oleg · 11-01-2010, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by galahad05

Holy crap, you've effectively halved your driving range, to under 200 miles between tanks.

Even when the warning low fuel comes up there are about 2 gallons of gas remaining so the pump is not dry. I think this is pathetic to cover up engineering miscalculation or defect by driving only first half of gas....how sad

Oleg · 11-01-2010, 03:14 PM

One positive thing about this recall is now you dont have to convince and argue with the dealer that there is a problem with a fuel pump and they dont have to update the software first but go ahead and replace the pump.

In my case for example dealer first had to get a confirmation from BMW to replace the pump. It took 1 day.

BTW, If BMW came up with a recall is there a chance that they designed a new pump?

10-31-2010, 10:08 AM	#221
stressdoc Moderator Drives: 335 E90 ZSP+ Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: MO Posts: 9,341 iTrader: (0)	My current failure analysis read is that ethanol exacerbates the lubrication problems of the HPFP at start up. The tolerances are extremely precise. If the pump is run dry (no fuel) for a few cycles it is just a matter of time. The whole system must be absolutely leak free; if vacuum is not maintained then air gets into pump. Inlet pipe must retain fuel. I would further speculate that heat would also exacerbate the problem -- stop and go with A/C and step, tune being risk factors that could allow pump to lose fuel before next start up. __________________ My not-so-recent ED: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31829 Quaife, BMW Perf & M3 suspension, V5, M-sport, ... Please join BMWCCA http://bmwcca.org/index.php?pageid=c...&ref_by=300279

10-31-2010, 02:29 PM	#226
Oleg Lieutenant Drives: 2011 535 iX Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: NY Posts: 517 iTrader: (3)	It seems to be odd that few forum members figured the probable cause of fuel pump failure but not not BMW/Bosch/etc. engineers.... Why dont other fuel pumps on regular non turbo cars fail with the same quality gas in US? Also HPFP's fail in other countries too so it's probably not related to gas quality or how often the pump is run dry. __________________ 2011 535 iX

10-31-2010, 04:25 PM	#229
gizmo335i Colonel Drives: 08 JB E92 335i 6MT Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: San Antonio Posts: 2,889 iTrader: (50) Garage List 2008 E92 335i [4.71]	Guess I'll find out soon....you'd think we here in the homeland would know..I might just drive down there and see... BTW, there are PLENTY of x35's failing here too....I don't think gas has anything to do with it... __________________ JB4 \| Vanguard/Quad burnt tips \| Linea Corse \| Mtech Front/rear \| AFE DCI \| H&R Sport + Koni yellow \| Umnitza Full LED Angels \| Akyrm lip/quad diffuser \| Alpine CSL CF Trunklid See Garage for more

11-01-2010, 11:18 AM	#238
ArizSun21 Private First Class Drives: 2008 BMW 335i Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Maryland Posts: 114 iTrader: (1) Garage List 2008 BMW E90 335i [3.50]	FYI: I called the BMW dealer near my office to set up an oil change and ask about getting the recall done at the same time. They told me I would need to have the letter before they did anything. I called BMW NA to see if I could get the letter sent to me early and they said I was not even in the system as the owner (I bought the car used at 30k miles) I had them update the system and they said the letters should be sent out at the end of this month. So if you did not buy the car new I guess you have to call BMW NA to get your name added to the Vin number. __________________ '08 335i - Alpine White/Black • H&R Sport • 18% Tint • PROcede V5 • PWM Meth • DCI • • • • 02' Spa Yellow/Black Acura NSX

11-01-2010, 01:10 PM	#239
gizmo335i Colonel Drives: 08 JB E92 335i 6MT Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: San Antonio Posts: 2,889 iTrader: (50) Garage List 2008 E92 335i [4.71]	Why in the living hell would you need the letter?!?!!? If your car fits the year/make....then...uh...that's it!! Damnit, dealers do stupid shit sometimes.. __________________ JB4 \| Vanguard/Quad burnt tips \| Linea Corse \| Mtech Front/rear \| AFE DCI \| H&R Sport + Koni yellow \| Umnitza Full LED Angels \| Akyrm lip/quad diffuser \| Alpine CSL CF Trunklid See Garage for more

10-31-2010, 12:08 PM	#222
jimk Captain Drives: 2006 530i SP Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: 1961 Stout Street, Suite 1823, Denver CO 80294 Posts: 623 iTrader: (4)	Does the fule pump also gets it's lubricity from the engine oil? I seem to recall a diagram that showed oil flowing through the pump. This may be a coincidence but when I was running Red Line oil there were no long cranks. When I changed to the BMW oil, as part of the free scheduled maintenance, shortly after I was starting to get long cranks. This may be totally unrelated...

11-01-2010, 06:59 AM	#231
325i_racer Private First Class Drives: 09 BMW 335i Black Saphire Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 111 iTrader: (0)	i always run dry.....no prob here...knock on the wood...

11-01-2010, 09:03 AM	#232
GOTHP Private First Class Drives: 335i e90 Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: OC Posts: 146 iTrader: (0)	on my 3rd fuel pump and my car died on highway.... I almost got into accident NOW WHAT....??? 08 335i 30k miles...

11-01-2010, 09:09 AM	#234
Jedclampet Private Drives: 2010 135i Champagne Silver Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Northern Jersey Posts: 70 iTrader: (0)	Fwiw mine went this weekend a 2010 135. So while on hold this Sunday am waiting for an operator on BMW assist for an extended period of time I was told their expirences unusally long delays. When the wrecker came some time later he informed me it was his 4th BMW turbo pick up today, this was at 11am. He went on to say that BMW has been keeping them very busy and knew all too well of the recall. When mine went into limp mode it was good for about a 1/2 mile and almost left me in the middle of a busy circle. I was told that his wrecking co. would be delivering my car and many others on Monday. Guess I best not plan on getting it back anytime soon.

11-01-2010, 03:14 PM	#242
Oleg Lieutenant Drives: 2011 535 iX Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: NY Posts: 517 iTrader: (3)	One positive thing about this recall is now you dont have to convince and argue with the dealer that there is a problem with a fuel pump and they dont have to update the software first but go ahead and replace the pump. In my case for example dealer first had to get a confirmation from BMW to replace the pump. It took 1 day. BTW, If BMW came up with a recall is there a chance that they designed a new pump? __________________ 2011 535 iX

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