[Boyd1963]

Originally Posted by xenon

But your tax does NOT and can not cover this expense and nor does anyone else's and that's the point. We either hike taxes massively to fund FE, including tosspot courses in media and social studies OR we ask the students to pay for their own education on the basis that they pay it back once in full-time graduate-level employment. If they do a worthwhile degree they'll get a worthwhile job.

It's people expecting to be able to fuck about for 5 years doing the student thing and coming out with a worthless degree and thinking they're entitled to do this is why we're in a state.

Worthless universities giving out worthless, unneeded degrees to worthless gobshites is the problem.

I'm sorry but that just sounds like Tory Spin to me. The budget deficit really wasn't caused by price of FE.

I also totally disagree with what you say about "useful" degrees leading to well paid jobs. Many of my university colleagues went into scientific research after completing their degree and 25 years later they are still earning a pittance. There is no way that they would have done that if they knew that they were going to get lumbered with huge debts.

One of them discovered that drastically cooling the brain after injury or in premature babies improved the chances of recovery. I think that he has paid back his debt to society. Other people that I know who did "rubbish" degrees are now racking it in doing management or sales jobs.

We all laugh at these joke degrees that they are handing out but blocking so called proper degrees from the talented poor is not the answer.

I presume that you are adding 2 years in 6th form and a 3 year degree course to come up with 5 years "f*cking" about. Otherwise you are referring to dentists and medics. Who needs them?

[xenon]

So the guy who pioneered research into cryogens drastically helping brain trauma is earning a "pittance" 25 years on? That's bollocks.

I have no problem with people doing proper degrees, my brother is a consultant pediatrician and my sister is a GP but I'll be buggered if I'm supporting some bearded scruffy tosser to learn "sports science" and expects society to pay for his meaningless efforts.

I don't see why graduates can't pay back loans when in employment.

[JLR1969]

Originally Posted by xenon

So the guy who pioneered research into cryogens drastically helping brain trauma is earning a "pittance" 25 years on? That's bollocks.

I have no problem with people doing proper degrees, my brother is a consultant pediatrician and my sister is a GP but I'll be buggered if I'm supporting some bearded scruffy tosser to learn "sports science" and expects society to pay for his meaningless efforts.

I don't see why graduates can't pay back loans when in employment.

+1

Sounds like Boydy is another one with a good degree earning a pittance and is bitter and twisted as a result of it

[xenon]

Not only that a degree shouldn't "guarantee" a good job anyway - you still have to be employable and have other skills. I interviewed a guy with a first from Magdalen or similar but I didn't give him the job because he was an irritating twat.

Perhaps that's true of some people with good degrees who earn a pittance - they're simply not very good despite their degree.

[Boyd1963]

Originally Posted by xenon

So the guy who pioneered research into cryogens drastically helping brain trauma is earning a "pittance" 25 years on? That's bollocks.

Yes I just made that story up just like The Daily Mail does everyday!

[Boyd1963]

Originally Posted by JLR1969

+1

Sounds like Boydy is another one with a good degree earning a pittance and is bitter and twisted as a result of it

You wish!

[JLR1969]

Originally Posted by Boyd1963

You wish!

I don't wish ill of anyone just responding to the tone of your comments.

[Boyd1963]

Originally Posted by JLR1969

I don't wish ill of anyone just responding to the tone of your comments.

Sorry. It's hard to put over a point on these forums without appearing aggressive which is not my intention at all. I am just trying to stand up for the poor who are noticeable by their absence on here.

[rogerxp]

Originally Posted by xenon

Not only that a degree shouldn't "guarantee" a good job anyway - you still have to be employable and have other skills. I interviewed a guy with a first from Magdalen or similar but I didn't give him the job because he was an irritating twat.

I agree with this (not wanting to get dragged into this...). In my industry, all the new blood coming in, are straight out of Uni, got various degree's, have passed all the regulatory exams with relative ease (as their brains are trained to simply remember & pass exams), but are completely shite at their job. They have no experience with people, fail to recognise how to be with different clients, etc, etc, etc, the list goes on. The client ends up with what that the guy thinks the client needed as opposed to what they needed. I've been in the industry 18 years and started making tea & filing - that experience is hard to replicate simply with letters after your name.

Slightly digressing but my point is getting a degree isn't 'all that'.

[xenon]

Boyd1963; Forget being rich or poor for the moment, is it your contention that every University Course, whatever its content or need, should be funded in its entirety by the state?

[JLR1969]

Originally Posted by Boyd1963

Sorry. It's hard to put over a point on these forums without appearing aggressive which is not my intention at all. I am just trying to stand up for the poor who are noticeable by their absence on here.

They are only absent as they are watching Jeremy Kyle or are still in bed

[Boyd1963]

Originally Posted by rogerxp

I agree with this (not wanting to get dragged into this...). In my industry, all the new blood coming in, are straight out of Uni, got various degree's, have passed all the regulatory exams, but are completely shite at their job. They have no experience with people, fail to recognise how to be with different clients, etc, etc, etc, the list goes on. I've been in the industry 18 years and started making tea & filing - that experience is hard to replicate simply with letters after your name.

Slightly digressing but my point is getting a degree isn't 'all that'.

I couldn't agree more. There is nothing quite as annoying as some fresh faced graduate who thinks that they know it all. I have had exactly the same problem especially when some pimply f**ker tries to tell me how computers work and that the latest software methodogy/programming language is the best ever and will never have to replaced!!!!!

Note to self: Pimply/Fresh faced make your mind up?

[Boyd1963]

Originally Posted by JLR1969

They are only absent as they are watching Jeremy Kyle or are still in bed

Probably not a million miles from the truth

[Boyd1963]

Originally Posted by xenon

Boyd1963; Forget being rich or poor for the moment, is it your contention that every University Course, whatever its content or need, should be funded in its entirety by the state?

No. Not at all. What I believe is that opportunity should be open to all regardless of background. I know that life is not fair but we shouldn't stand by and let it become even more unfair.

[xenon]

I think it is open to all regardless of background, by and large. You only have to pay back the tuition fees once you're in employment. If you chose to read something pointless / useless then on your own head be it.

[Boyd1963]

Originally Posted by xenon

I think it is open to all regardless of background, by and large. You only have to pay back the tuition fees once you're in employment. If you chose to read something pointless / useless then on your own head be it.

The problem is that you have to get through 6th form first and removing EMA will surely be a discentive to the very poor. Also as I said racking up a large debt on tuition fees is going to put a lot of people off.

[xenon]

Fair point, I agree with you re. the EMA.

[dxb335d]

Turning into a interesting debate. Regarding what Xenon said about Uni dudes who are just not employable. I totally agree.

I've seen this in my work and also with friends unfortunately.

[rogerxp]

Simple question that has been puzzling me...

...why are we paying people to go to 6th form???

I'm not being arsey here or anything but just don't understand why. What sort of mindset are students who won't be educated unless they are being paid??? Am I missing a huge point here??? No wonder they're kicking off, they're going from 'earning' at 6th form to 'buying themselves' at Uni.

[Boyd1963]

Originally Posted by xenon

Fair point, I agree with you re. the EMA.

It's been a hard one for me to defend because EMA is a PITA in our household.

Apparently ALL my daughters friends get it so we have to give it to her as well as an incentive to do some work in 6th form. It is also very badly assessed so if your parents are separated and mum is badly paid you still get it even if you father is a millionaire.

[Boyd1963]

Originally Posted by rogerxp

Simple question that has been puzzling me...

...why are we paying people to go to 6th form???

I'm not being arsey here or anything but just don't understand why. What sort of mindset are students who won't be educated unless they are being paid??? Am I missing a huge point here??? No wonder they're kicking off, they're going from 'earning' at 6th form to 'buying themselves' at Uni.

Roger the Labour govenment were trying to encourage the poor to go into futher education/mask unemployment depending on your point of view.

£30 is a pittance and it means that the govenment doesn't have to pay jobseekers allowance to 16 and 17 year olds unless they are estranged from their family.

So it's swings and roundabouts. Either we pay for them to be in college or we pay for them to sit at home watching Jermey Kyle.

[dxb335d]

Originally Posted by Boyd1963

Roger the Labour govenment were trying to encourage the poor to go into futher education/mask unemployment depending on your point of view.

£30 is a pittance sand it means that the govenment doesn't have to pay jobseekers allowance to 16 and 17 year olds unless they are estranged from their family.

So it's swings and roundabouts. Either we pay for them to be in college or we pay for them to sit at home watching Jermey Kyle.

Pay them to be ''ON IT'' more like!!!