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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > BMW E90/E92/E93 3-series General Forums > General E90 Sedan / E91 Wagon / E92 Coupe / E93 Cabrio > Car&Driver 2011 Lightning Lap @ VIR results are in for M3, 335i, Z4, 135i



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      12-30-2010, 07:15 PM   #23
E39hijinks
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Audi is the luxury version of VW which is the german Honda. Their doors shut nicely, though. I'll give 'em that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sf_loft View Post
Not to strike up another debate, but Car & Driver, Motortrend, and InsideLine have all mentioned that it wouldn't be fair to put up the XI against the S4. That is why all the head-to-head comparisons have been against the RWD BMW. BMW AWD is designed as foul weather aid, not a performance enhancing feature. Without sports suspension and the added weight, it will not be good on the results for the BMW. They chose performance oriented cars in each price range and an XI, sorry to say, is not going to make that list.

Yes the 335i coupe edged the S4 sedan by 3/10th's on the same track, but I can use your argument that it was not on the same day or same driver. Given that the S4 was tested on a cold February day compared to 335's in August

I'm surprised that the 135 finished 3 seconds behind the regular 335i. You would think that with the same power and lighter / smaller chassis it would do at least the same or best it.
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      12-30-2010, 07:20 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
I'd take caution directly comparing results from year to year. Some of their times are very suspect also and while I am not suggesting foul play, they go against all other results for the cars.
Exactly. Some of these times seem very suspect. For example, look at their times for the Subaru’s. The new STI sedan is the same car but 5.2 seconds faster? I think they get a lot hopped up testers from the manufacturers.
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      12-30-2010, 07:25 PM   #25
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Interesting! So where does my lowly 325i fit in?
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      12-30-2010, 07:30 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kt3130 View Post
Exactly. Some of these times seem very suspect. For example, look at their times for the Subaruís. The new STI sedan is the same car but 5.2 seconds faster? I think they get a lot hopped up testers from the manufacturers.
Or their laps are not all that consistent. Given that the drivers used were Car and Driver writers and not a professional racer, this is entirely possible.
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      12-30-2010, 07:39 PM   #27
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I'm surprised how close these sports sedans are to the GT3.
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      12-30-2010, 07:51 PM   #28
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ya I don't understand either how the 135i did so much worse compared to the 335i... isn't it lighter and smaller?
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      12-30-2010, 08:03 PM   #29
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Really?
Yep
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      12-30-2010, 08:18 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TwinTurboXI View Post
Isn't cold February weather better for forced induction cars than say a hot day in August?
I was thinking the same thing when I read this!

But back on topic.... I vote these guys suck at driving and or had too many different drivers (different driving types) behind the wheel thats why these #'s are all over the place.

Does anyone know what Lexus did to the IS-f to make it that much faster?
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      12-30-2010, 08:23 PM   #31
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And to the Audi's defense... I was at Audi the other day, I bought my wife a Q5 over the new X5... just better IMHO... drove them both with options and the Audi is awesome!

And to that note... I sat in the S4... wow that interior is WAYYYY cooler then my 335's... just saying... and its 3k less then my 08 was! I want to drive it, I might do that tomorrow!
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      12-30-2010, 08:31 PM   #32
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Everyone needs to keep in mind these times are over the last 4-5 years. Track conditions and surfaces vary year by year. Furthermore, I think VIR was repaved in the last year or so, therefore making these comparisons less accurate. Regardless I wish I had the GT3 RS
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      12-30-2010, 08:31 PM   #33
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Thumbs down

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenkirby21 View Post
ya I don't understand either how the 135i did so much worse compared to the 335i... isn't it lighter and smaller?
I definitely second this. A shorter wheel base and lighter... doesn't add up!
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      12-30-2010, 08:44 PM   #34
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Just to add to all the comments here, to be fair they seem very odd to me too... Also why did the 135i do so bad compared to the 335i ? Weird....
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      12-30-2010, 08:54 PM   #35
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The article is all the way at the top of the original post just click on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tizzyd View Post
where is this article?
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      12-30-2010, 09:22 PM   #36
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The 335i beat out both the M coupe and 135i?
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      12-30-2010, 09:23 PM   #37
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First off, some back ground info for the people that are not acustomed to this lightning lap event. The lightning lap is held every year by Car&Driver in which they test a bunch of high performance cars. The test results are from various years are compiled for the sake of data. Much like top gear does on its board. The track conditions are not 100% identical much like top gear or many other publication that gather data over several years. So there will be a slight variance.

As far as why certain model year car did better then the other model year car. In order to find this please go and read the article it will explain in more details. For example in the case of the new Lexus IS-F sedan vs the one they tested few years back. They talk about how Lexus improved the suspension greatly etc. that resulted in greater confidence and better handling on track. Thus, the new times are much more improved. One can see two M3's from different years yet the times very close together due to the difference between DCT vs 6-speed.

As far as the 135i goes even in their recent comparison of best handling cars the 135i did not handle as well as they had tought. From what I remember the 135i might be lighter but it has a lot higher center of gravity compared to the 335i coupe. Its like the archticture of the top hat. The higher cf on track is not ideal and causes it to be a bit tippy when the mass moves around. So lot of body roll and lot of up and down motion to keep the ride compliance.They also found the shift action a bit rubbery. I also think that the tire size is on the 135i is smaller then the 335i coupe which might have had some effect on the outcome.

Anyways you guys can go read up the articles at Car&Driver.
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      12-30-2010, 09:24 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sf_loft View Post
FI runs better on cold because the air is denser. That's just power delivery, but a cold track surface and not having the right tire compound can seriously affect traction on cold days. We will never know the answer because what the cars were outfitted with and the temperatures are not publicized. I'm not arguing what the outcome might have been because it's pointless to argue over 2/10 of a second. Kayani_1 and I have had a history where he and I argued over 6/100th of a second and that is why I made the comment and threw a wink.
It seems to me that warming tires wouldn't be too difficult on a hot lap. Keeping the air cold would be a bit more difficult. It was 51 degrees in SoCal on my way home from work and my car felt amazing. It was a very fun drive home from work.

Bottom line is if all these cars aren't driving on the same day, same second, same tire pressure, same every single thing then everyone is going to point out the flaws. I think that's BS.

I like Top Gear. A time is a time and if your the fastest then your the fastest unless it is a wet lap (which they even compare). It will never be identical so take pride (or sulk) on the times that were posted base on this test. It isn't life or death.

I hope that sf_loft isn't trying to justify his purchase to all of us because I don't think any of us care. I have read too many posts where you are just trying to prove something about your Audi. I congratulate you on your purchase but there will always be a better car. Why fight so much about your saintly S4? There have been so many posts about you trying to prove how much better an Audi is that if you continue this sort of argument it actually tends to be counter productive. Good luck with your Audi vs BMW war!

Happy New Year's everyone. Drive safe, or better yet don't drive at all tomorrow.
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      12-30-2010, 10:00 PM   #39
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i wonder how a 335is would do..
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      12-30-2010, 10:10 PM   #40
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complete BS.
Can you get an Xdrive with sport suspension?
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      12-30-2010, 10:28 PM   #41
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2 cars stand out to me are the GT-R and latest Cayman S. Both are underdogs are yet both are on the top. CS is 100 hp less than M3 and ISF yet lapping around the same time. GT-R on the other hand is a sub-100 dollar car but ranked within Ferraris, Porsches, and Lambos.
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      12-30-2010, 10:36 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayani_1 View Post
First off, some back ground info for the people that are not acustomed to this lightning lap event. The lightning lap is held every year by Car&Driver in which they test a bunch of high performance cars. The test results are from various years are compiled for the sake of data. Much like top gear does on its board.
True, but Top Gear has pro drivers do their laps. I'm really surprised that Car and Driver didn't have a professional lap the cars. It seems to me that this would increase the accuracy of the comparisons.
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      12-30-2010, 10:38 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sf_loft View Post
FI runs better on cold because the air is denser. That's just power delivery, but a cold track surface and not having the right tire compound can seriously affect traction on cold days. We will never know the answer because what the cars were outfitted with and the temperatures are not publicized. I'm not arguing what the outcome might have been because it's pointless to argue over 2/10 of a second. Kayani_1 and I have had a history where he and I argued over 6/100th of a second and that is why I made the comment and threw a wink.
haha all very true... I was just giving you a hard time as I see most of us are.
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      12-30-2010, 10:47 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Impervious View Post
True, but Top Gear has pro drivers do their laps. I'm really surprised that Car and Driver didn't have a professional lap the cars. It seems to me that this would increase the accuracy of the comparisons.
Depends on how you look at it. Prof drivers may have tricks up their sleeves to make a car go faster than average Joe can for a particular car. I consider myself an average driver so I find value in C&D's decision to use amateur drivers than full fledge professional racers. It represents a truer performance to be expected when I am piloting the same car.

As long as C&D stays consistent and not switch between pro and amateur on each test, the ranking still stands as a valid comparison of cars. I will be wary of comparing this list against other list, though.
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