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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > BMW E90/E92/E93 3-series General Forums > General E90 Sedan / E91 Wagon / E92 Coupe / E93 Cabrio > Car&Driver 2011 Lightning Lap @ VIR results are in for M3, 335i, Z4, 135i



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      12-31-2010, 05:54 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolyan2k View Post
it does have torque converter. ps. i loved my SMG-II
The torque converters on the Steptronic and on the IS-F lock up above 10MPH and from that point on have no involvement in gear changes.

I never drove an SMG so I will defer to you since you have experience with it, FWIW, when I went to the BMW MPower Tour earlier this year during the presentation before we drove the M Cars someome asked how the SMG compared to the SMG. The answer was "The SMG was crap". I take this with a grain of salt as a friend of mine recently purchased an E46 M3 with SMG and thinks that it is great.

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      12-31-2010, 06:42 PM   #90
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Anyone else impressed at the time turned in by the Cobalt SS? I mean, damn - it's a freaking CHEVY COBALT. Yow.
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      12-31-2010, 08:51 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by ragingclue View Post
What was wrong with the 135 when it ran? Kinda hard to believe it got beat by a V6 Mustang, especially when the 335 is so much further ahead of it. Honestly though, that makes me chuckle.

I really like the '11 GT500 with the SVTPP. And the 5.0 doesn't handle too bad either, does it?
I agree... 135i.... Then I looked what beat it.... I was like HUH????

V6 Mustang.....
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      12-31-2010, 09:31 PM   #92
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      12-31-2010, 11:53 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sf_loft View Post
That is true with every automatic or DCT in automatic mode. A computer is programmed to do the switching for you and computers don't have eyes or the situational decision making of a driver. Some systems may be more attuned compared to others, but that's why sport autos allow you to put it into manual mode. Is the IS-F dual clutch or a conventional automatic? The IS-F regardless of it's numbers is not my cup of tea when it comes to looks. Vertically stacked tail pipes
You know, the searching is not so much the fact of it's being an automatic, and I think it is a conventional auto if I remember correctly, but because it has all of 8 gears! It always seems to want to shift and the engine tone which is nice is changing so much, it sounds like part of an orchestral piece. The step in my 135i seems to be always in the right gear for the situation in both regular D and sport auto DS mode. The DCT should be even better.
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      01-01-2011, 12:29 AM   #94
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From my experience the SMG I in E46 M3 was a dog in automatic mode. But in manual it was great. The SMG II that I drove many times in M5 was much better in automatic mode and even better in manual mode. But DCT seems to be even more smoother and faster then the SMG II.

At the end of the day if I did not have to worry about the wifey......6-speed all the way.


Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I never drove an SMG so I will defer to you since you have experience with it, FWIW, when I went to the BMW MPower Tour earlier this year during the presentation before we drove the M Cars someome asked how the SMG compared to the SMG. The answer was "The SMG was crap". I take this with a grain of salt as a friend of mine recently purchased an E46 M3 with SMG and thinks that it is great.

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      01-01-2011, 04:41 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayani_1 View Post
The VIR is a type of track closest to Nurburgring on which a car that provides greater confidence is the one that achieves better lap times.
If VIR is a type of track that is close to Nurburgring then something doesn't add up here, this is what i was talking about in my earlier post.

Nurburgring lap times for some BMWs:

8:05 BMW M3 E92
8:09 BMW M6 E63 (w/ sport tires)
8:12 BMW 1 series M Coupe
8:12 BMW Z4 M Coupe
8:13 BMW M5 E60
8:22 BMW M3 E46
8:26 BMW 335i E92 Coupe
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      01-01-2011, 05:41 AM   #96
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The Z4M is a very capable car but almost every publication will tell you it is a handful to get a best lap out of it. That is why they often call it German Viper. The Z4M is overall a better performance machine then 335i coupe any day. The problem is to extract that extra performance from it with ease. On the other hand the 335i is more easier to drive on track and not the outright better performance machine.

Also, I recall that Z4M in North American market were released with very poor tire choice by BMW. It was a very well known fact among Z4M owners. That poor tire choice could have also caused slower times by causing understeer/oversteer issues and eroding confidence of the driver. The Z4M the BMW itself tested had PS2 as a tire choice then those Continental or Pilot sports.

Also, both the track are similar but not identical. The Nurburgring still has overall higher avg. top speeds sections then the VIR. Anyways, Z4M is very capable car which is best in the hands of a very experienced driver who is not afraid to extract every ounce of performance from it. Also, in order to do it the Z4M has to be wearing proper rubber otherwise it will be a long day no matter who drives it.


The C&D test is not word of god but just one of many tests. Here are some more times that go to show that the Z4M and 335i coupe times are very close to one another and depending on who is the driver, weather conditions, track or tire choices all can effect an out come.

Track 335i Coupe Z4 M Coupe
Hockenheim Short 1:17.80 1:17.20 (small advantage Z4M)
Balocco 3:02.49 2:56.67 (small advantage Z4M)
Serres Racing Circuit 1:35.25 1:36.20 (small advantage 335i)



Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemonblitz View Post
If VIR is a type of track that is close to Nurburgring then something doesn't add up here, this is what i was talking about in my earlier post.

Nurburgring lap times for some BMWs:

8:05 BMW M3 E92
8:09 BMW M6 E63 (w/ sport tires)
8:12 BMW 1 series M Coupe
8:12 BMW Z4 M Coupe
8:13 BMW M5 E60
8:22 BMW M3 E46
8:26 BMW 335i E92 Coupe
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      01-01-2011, 11:24 AM   #97
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IMO, whoever drove the 135i at C&D must have had a hangover. Check the Motor Trend Laguna Seca times and the 135i is three seconds faster than a 335i.

See this link:http://www.motortrend.com/features/l...lap/index.html
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      01-01-2011, 12:37 PM   #98
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Judging by the results, VIR is somewhat of a power track and the cars with short wheelbases did not do all that well (except the Boxster/Cayman, which is known to have friendly behavior at the limits). It's likely that their drivers did not have a lot of time with each car and may not have been able to get the most out of some of the cars.

Z4M with stock Continentals has strong understeer but also is very tail happy, it should have never left the factory with a 6 year old tire design @ 225 in the front.

Last edited by chris719; 01-01-2011 at 12:43 PM.
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      01-01-2011, 03:51 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayani_1 View Post
From http://www.caranddriver.com/features...p_2011-feature (Full feature, with test lap videos)

Even when compared to the in house M division cars its lap times are better then the Z4M and nearly match those of the mighty 507 hp M6 coupe. To me this car is a bargain performance machine. I am so glad its parked in your humbles garage.
Thanks for the link. I do think your comment above, presented as an all-emcompassing discourse of the two cars is inaccurate, just basing it on C&D.

On this topic, this is the only place it seems where the 335i apears faster and the lap times are not from the same session or same drivers, etc so really a bit incomparable. Using the same logic, on Nordschleife, the 335i ran a 8:26 (Source: Fastest Laps) to the Z4M's 8:12 (Source: CAR) and it has lost on most other times I've seen on fastest laps:

http://www.fastestlaps.com/cars/bmw_335i_coupe.htmlv

http://www.fastestlaps.com/cars/bmw_z4_m_roadster.html

http://www.fastestlaps.com/cars/bmw_z4_m_coupe.html

Further, C&D have never been able to extract a meaningful result of the Z4M and while arguing it is due to bias is a useless argument, it is also supported by the Top Gear test time where the Z4MR has a very quick time. Many of the US mags never even got the kerb weight of the Z4M right when comparing to the Cayman S due to different reporting standards used. As a purely subjective comment, I believe C&D dislikes the Z4M and loves the 335i (and I own both); why I don't know as many other publications have praised the Z4M, especially the Europeans.

In my track days, the only time a (modified, stock are not an issue) 335i comes close to me is getting out of corners due to the torque advantage.

Lastly, the Z4M is crippled (stock) with shitty tires and the CDV which makes shifting harder.

Best,

Omar
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      01-01-2011, 04:00 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayani_1 View Post
Track 335i Coupe Z4 M Coupe
Hockenheim Short 1:17.80 1:17.20 (small advantage Z4M)
Balocco 3:02.49 2:56.67 (small advantage Z4M)
Serres Racing Circuit 1:35.25 1:36.20 (small advantage 335i)
Thanks for the quotes.

There are others where the advantage to the Z4M is not as minor, see my post above. In the majority of tests, it appears the Z4M is faster and this mirrors what I have personally seen on the track. 135i''s seem to be faster than 335i's (generalising on cars).

This is all with the Contishits BMW chose to cripple the Z4M with. It is not at all a hard car to drive. You just have to learn it like any other car where the responses are not dumbed down for you. I.e. a real "sports car" vs. a "sports coupe" or "sporty car". I think that impression has come from one review and then regurgitatied throughout the internet by those who have never driven the car to the limit.

To digress mildly, I recently almost bought a M3 Coupe, but after several back to back drives with my Z4MC, kept the Z4MC. I will upgrade it with something that is a significant upgrade. My 335i is far from it and the E92 M3 is not it.
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      01-01-2011, 05:18 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
Judging by the results, VIR is somewhat of a power track and the cars with short wheelbases did not do all that well (except the Boxster/Cayman, which is known to have friendly behavior at the limits). It's likely that their drivers did not have a lot of time with each car and may not have been able to get the most out of some of the cars.

Z4M with stock Continentals has strong understeer but also is very tail happy, it should have never left the factory with a 6 year old tire design @ 225 in the front.
While we're on the subject, NO BMW should leave the factory with 30mm narrower front tires (than its rears). Every Bimmer I've driven that went to a square setup was so much nicer to drive than the already well sorted stock setup.

I'm surprised they were so slow in the 135i, I've driven lots of 335s and now I have a 135i and to me, the 1 is just as easy to drive as a 3, it just has a stiffer suspension setup and a little less weight. Oh, and the brakes are hugely superior on the 135i that's the first thing everyone notices when I let them behind the wheel.

The videos for this article were great.
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      01-01-2011, 06:44 PM   #102
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I'm just impressed by the TTS....quattro and a factory modded 2.0T and wow...some impressive numbers there!

And as for arguing....can we all not agree that there are so many variables between each of the times (weather, track, temp drivers, etc etc etc) that they times are indicative, not definitive?
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      01-02-2011, 10:40 AM   #103
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evo is legit

Quote:
Originally Posted by 330CIZHP View Post
Yeah, seems like the IS-F updates brought it right neck and neck with the M3.

Though, I am not a fan of the IS-F especially the 8 speed auto, but looks like Lexus overall is on a roll. Their absolutely stunning first supercar LFA's 4.8 Liter V10 beat the Ferrari 4.5 Liter V8, GTR V6, LP570-4 & R8 V10, SLS AMG V8, GT3 & GT2 RS flat-6 etc. for "Evo UK best engine of the year".







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      01-02-2011, 03:20 PM   #104
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journalists like autozeitung, kilometer magazine (who btw said it has a stiffer suspension than the Audi S4) and auto motor sport have indeed compared the 335xi to the s4. the 335xi also holds better laptimes than the 335i on the autozeitung test track.
Yes, the xi sits a bit higher, and is a bit heavier, but having those extra wheels to put the power down has an advantage on the track as well. It's interesting to note that the Infiniti G35x was faster than the RWD G35 in previous Car and Driver track tests, and the same weight/height argument could be made about those.

I'd like to see it there for comparison and indeed wonder why it is not.
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      01-02-2011, 04:00 PM   #105
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great find!
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      01-02-2011, 05:05 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayani_1 View Post
From my experience the SMG I in E46 M3 was a dog in automatic mode. But in manual it was great. The SMG II that I drove many times in M5 was much better in automatic mode and even better in manual mode. But DCT seems to be even more smoother and faster then the SMG II.

At the end of the day if I did not have to worry about the wifey......6-speed all the way.
I'm pretty sure the E46 M's had the SMG II. Wasn't it the European E36 M's that had SMG I?
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      01-03-2011, 12:14 AM   #107
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Couldn't come up with the coin in OZ for and M3, so happy with the ISF result seeing as that is my new ride
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      01-03-2011, 11:52 PM   #108
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In case it hasn't been mentioned yet, the IS-F with a new and better tuned suspension, it actually matched the M3 coupe's time of 3:05.4 from last year. Considering that it is almost 200lbs heavier and only equipped with a sloppy automatic, that's pretty impressive.
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      01-04-2011, 12:02 AM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aleckzandr View Post
RE: Lexus IS-F

Lexus' message to BMW: time to wake up!

BMW's message to Lexus: You're just starting to catch up.
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      01-04-2011, 12:13 AM   #110
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BMW's message to Lexus: Oh crap you've just about caught up.
FTFY
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