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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > NA Engine (non-turbo) / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications > N52 tune/chip ECU



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      12-30-2010, 02:32 AM   #23
5erman
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You will NEVER see more than 10hp from exhaust/intake and tune put together. Mods are not additive for one and neither of those adds more than a horsepower or two. A true tune possible to gain 10 hp so you can pick that up.

To be honest the best by far upgrade for handling and performance and speeds is lightweight wheels and tires. Saving on rotating weight is by far the biggest benefit to a car's acceleration. Stock wheels and tires are HEAVY. You can get many 18 or 19 inch wheels that weight in at 25 pounds which is 7 pounds lighter than the stock 330 sport wheels 18 inch.

Then you get a light weight tire-cheap general exclaim weight 5 pounds less than the stock tires. PS2, conti DWS also weight 4-5 pounds less per tire and are better quality.

So you can save 40 pounds (10 on each corner) of rotating weight that will noticably improve acceleration. Also since its unsprung weight it will make a ton of difference in ride comfort and ride handling more than suspension would. Last it is 40 less total pounds which is a benefit itself.

You can remove the spare for another 50 and that is about the best you will do.

It is a misconception that adding smaller wheels is better because although they potentially can be lighter (17 inches) the tire used has WAY bigger sidewalls and is WAY heavier-and for rotating weight it is the most outside weight of the rotating circle (end of the fulcrum in torque) that is important. Weight at the center of the rotation-ie the wheel is much less important. So light weight tires are the single best mod you can do for performance.

If you drive the crap out of the n52 and redline it all the time youll have fun. I have driven all 255 hp almost every day for 60k miles and 4 years and engine is as smooth as day 1 and car feels as good. You need to be above 6500 RPM's to see the last 30 hp of the car. Under 6500 it is not a lot different than the older m54 in the e46. Plus the 330 has the benefit of revving to 7k and making peak power at 6800 v. the 328 makes it at 6600 and makes less power. So you really benefit revving it to 7 k to get anything out of the car.

Sound is another thing that I consider "fun" about a car. A nice exhaust sounds good with this engine and makes driving more enjoyable. You can enjoy a car using different "senses" not usually all at once. So if you occupy your enjoyment from a nice sound and good handling, youll less notice the lack of torque and acceleration you would if simply drag racing all day.

good luck and enjoy
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      12-30-2010, 12:36 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by 5erman View Post
You will NEVER see more than 10hp from exhaust/intake and tune put together. Mods are not additive for one and neither of those adds more than a horsepower or two. A true tune possible to gain 10 hp so you can pick that up.

To be honest the best by far upgrade for handling and performance and speeds is lightweight wheels and tires. Saving on rotating weight is by far the biggest benefit to a car's acceleration. Stock wheels and tires are HEAVY. You can get many 18 or 19 inch wheels that weight in at 25 pounds which is 7 pounds lighter than the stock 330 sport wheels 18 inch.

Then you get a light weight tire-cheap general exclaim weight 5 pounds less than the stock tires. PS2, conti DWS also weight 4-5 pounds less per tire and are better quality.

So you can save 40 pounds (10 on each corner) of rotating weight that will noticably improve acceleration. Also since its unsprung weight it will make a ton of difference in ride comfort and ride handling more than suspension would. Last it is 40 less total pounds which is a benefit itself.

You can remove the spare for another 50 and that is about the best you will do.

It is a misconception that adding smaller wheels is better because although they potentially can be lighter (17 inches) the tire used has WAY bigger sidewalls and is WAY heavier-and for rotating weight it is the most outside weight of the rotating circle (end of the fulcrum in torque) that is important. Weight at the center of the rotation-ie the wheel is much less important. So light weight tires are the single best mod you can do for performance.

If you drive the crap out of the n52 and redline it all the time youll have fun. I have driven all 255 hp almost every day for 60k miles and 4 years and engine is as smooth as day 1 and car feels as good. You need to be above 6500 RPM's to see the last 30 hp of the car. Under 6500 it is not a lot different than the older m54 in the e46. Plus the 330 has the benefit of revving to 7k and making peak power at 6800 v. the 328 makes it at 6600 and makes less power. So you really benefit revving it to 7 k to get anything out of the car.

Sound is another thing that I consider "fun" about a car. A nice exhaust sounds good with this engine and makes driving more enjoyable. You can enjoy a car using different "senses" not usually all at once. So if you occupy your enjoyment from a nice sound and good handling, youll less notice the lack of torque and acceleration you would if simply drag racing all day.

good luck and enjoy

I agree, lose weight at the wheels is shooting two birds with one stone too. But to say 17" rubber has too much weight is just not true, 17" rubber is generally lighter than 18" rubber regardless the tire size.

The N52 torque peaks at 2750, not after 6500. I see your point if you meant hp, but for the purpose of acceleration, tq is the key, once you pick up the speed, there is no reason to stay above 6500 to use the peak hp, only occasionally in high speed passing.

Just because you refuse to accept the facts does not mean the facts do not exist. Air scoops, K&N drop in and carbon delete can really help N52 at highway high speed pick up, proven by dynos and by driver's temp data and throttle response comparison. You don't have to believe us, but stop insulting people's intelligence.
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      01-01-2011, 12:31 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
I agree, lose weight at the wheels is shooting two birds with one stone too. But to say 17" rubber has too much weight is just not true, 17" rubber is generally lighter than 18" rubber regardless the tire size.

The N52 torque peaks at 2750, not after 6500. I see your point if you meant hp, but for the purpose of acceleration, tq is the key, once you pick up the speed, there is no reason to stay above 6500 to use the peak hp, only occasionally in high speed passing.

Just because you refuse to accept the facts does not mean the facts do not exist. Air scoops, K&N drop in and carbon delete can really help N52 at highway high speed pick up, proven by dynos and by driver's temp data and throttle response comparison. You don't have to believe us, but stop insulting people's intelligence.
It is so frustrating when everything in your post is wrong information.

I dont mean to insult your intelligence but if you think about it for 2 seconds 17 inch tires will NEVER be lighter than 18 inch tires given the same type/brand and equivelent ratios for the rolling radius of the car. ie-on my car
stock-245-40-18 28pounds per tire
19's 245/35-19 (same overall radius) 25

The overall diamter and circumfrence will be the same on 16, 17, 18, 19 etc-the only thing that changes is the amount of "wheel" taking up the circule v. sidewalls of the rubber...So it is absolutely impossible that more rubber would ever way less than less rubber. Again you have to take overcall cirmfrence into account as that is your comparison-so you cant compared 24540/17 with 245/40/18. Then in this case yes clearly the 17s way more but this would never happen since you need to keep rolling radius the same on a car.

2. This arguement about not being at redline for max acceleration continues to be misunderstood. The very small amount that the power trails off after 6700 in the High output version is WAY MORE compensated by the torque advantage of 1st gear over 2nd gear.

Also torque really means squat if your car is designed to rev highly. It is being at peak HP which makes you go the fastest.
-2 things make a car move. Torque and RPM's The combination of them is a HP measure. It doesnt matter which combo you get-big torque and low RPM or vice versa-whichever HP is the better.

Now torque often is considered "what makes you go" because from a standstill you typically have a lag before you get into the higher rpms. However after 1st gear the car tuned for high rpms will not drop down past 5-6RPM's so the peak torque at 2750 will be meaningless after 5th gear.

You try yourself accelerating at 2krpm-4k and then 5-7k-its fast at the top.

Again this is just the science of what makes the car go. The last piece is how the rpm and engine torque gets put to the ground. Aside from the parasitic losses-it is all dependant on gearing and final drive ratios. Gearing just multiples the engine power by 4, 3, 2 etc. Whicver gearing you have in whichver gear. So 1st will take the hp you are at and multiple it by 4 lets say. 2nd gear will take it and multiple it by 2.

So you would have to have your power decrease by TWO times to get benefit of shifting before redline for example in the n52.

And sure the published numbers may mean something however there has not been a single dyno to prove any combination of these produce anything consistently. I have the pbx, scoops and an rpi exhaust. Actually the rpi is the only thing ever consistently showed gains on dyno.

Anyway beside the point-this is way to long but just not sure why people who post on a bmw enthusiast board and reply to posts regarding performance do not understand how the engine and car works to deliver its power. That is kind of key in order to advise how to make more or get the most out of yoru car-power wise.

So for those reading you can shift at 6500 like this guy says or shift at 7k and get the most out of your car and stomp him each time. Ill take the 7k in a race or the track.

Now the 335 or car with a HUGE dropoff of power after 6500-then it truly does fall at a rate more than the gearing provides any advantage and that is why in the 335 it is known that the ideal shift point is more in the 6500 and not the 7k range even though it redlines at 7k.

And lastly for those that think "torque" is all that makes acceleration. Think of any non-FI M car. The m3 for example. 295 pounds of torque but 414hp and 8300 RPM's. 0-60 is a second faster than a 335 and after that it is not even competitive. 335 will pull for a millisecond but that is all it takes for the m3 to jump into the 6.5k RPM's into the power band and then its peak power v. peak power and the m3 crushes
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      01-01-2011, 12:56 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5erman View Post
It is so frustrating when everything in your post is wrong information.

I dont mean to insult your intelligence but if you think about it for 2 seconds 17 inch tires will NEVER be lighter than 18 inch tires given the same type/brand and equivelent ratios for the rolling radius of the car. ie-on my car
stock-245-40-18 28pounds per tire
19's 245/35-19 (same overall radius) 25

The overall diamter and circumfrence will be the same on 16, 17, 18, 19 etc-the only thing that changes is the amount of "wheel" taking up the circule v. sidewalls of the rubber...So it is absolutely impossible that more rubber would ever way less than less rubber. Again you have to take overcall cirmfrence into account as that is your comparison-so you cant compared 24540/17 with 245/40/18. Then in this case yes clearly the 17s way more but this would never happen since you need to keep rolling radius the same on a car.
all truth
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      01-01-2011, 04:02 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5erman View Post
It is so frustrating when everything in your post is wrong information.

I dont mean to insult your intelligence but if you think about it for 2 seconds 17 inch tires will NEVER be lighter than 18 inch tires given the same type/brand and equivelent ratios for the rolling radius of the car. ie-on my car
stock-245-40-18 28pounds per tire
19's 245/35-19 (same overall radius) 25
Go to tire rack read the tire weight ratings, most 17"s are lighter than 18"s and 19". Additionally you can choose specific 17" wheel and tire sizes if your goal is speed and you can go faster than in 18" or 19".

Quote:
2. This arguement about not being at redline for max acceleration continues to be misunderstood. The very small amount that the power trails off after 6700 in the High output version is WAY MORE compensated by the torque advantage of 1st gear over 2nd gear.
I never disputed your such point, all I am saying is no one drives at 6500 PRM when crusing, you seem to be the only one who drives at redline ALL THE TIME. That is perfectly fine, just don't insult others for not driving at redline ALL THE TIME.

Quote:
So for those reading you can shift at 6500 like this guy says or shift at 7k and get the most out of your car and stomp him each time. Ill take the 7k in a race or the track.
Not true for all gears, from 1st to 2nd the optimum shifting point is 69k, very close to 7K, from 2nd to 3rd at around 65k, 3rd to 4th at around 61k. There is a software designed to analyze the optimum gear shifting points. As you move away from top gears, gear ratio is no longer as beneficial for acceleration purpose so the optimum shifting points change.

Quote:
And lastly for those that think "torque" is all that makes acceleration. Think of any non-FI M car. The m3 for example. 295 pounds of torque but 414hp and 8300 RPM's. 0-60 is a second faster than a 335 and after that it is not even competitive. 335 will pull for a millisecond but that is all it takes for the m3 to jump into the 6.5k RPM's into the power band and then its peak power v. peak power and the m3 crushes
Good point, this was never our discussion so it does not prove me wrong in anyway.

The M3 for example will lag an S4 initially in a 0 to 60 run but will quickly out pace the S4 and end up with faster 0 to 60 time than the S4.
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      01-01-2011, 04:02 PM   #28
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