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      11-28-2010, 11:33 PM   #177
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VP,

I agree with pretty much everything you wrote and I am not trying to knock the MS-8. I just wanted to point out those concepts which were not totally clear to me before I got the device. It is hard for me to get a good handle on a device without actually working with it first. I would bet that there are others out there like me as well who would benefit from the easy rundown of the device.

As a computer programmer who creates plenty of user interfaces, I can easily see why they designed the MS-8 the way they did. They wanted to take a difficult, complex procedure and make it work for anybody. I think they did a pretty good job of it too.

Here's to hoping that the bitone and the MS-8 get it on.

Cheers!
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      11-29-2010, 09:44 AM   #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeFKnoL View Post
Con's:
- Only one single graphic equalizer for entire system (no independent equalizrions for each channel)
Not true. It EQs each channel independantly during setup to get everything to it's target curve. After that you use the global EQ to make changes. Think about it, it's exactly what you'd do with independant EQs on your own, JBL just did the normalization part for you.

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- Large unit (physical size:8-3/8"D x 11-1/2"W x 2-3/16"H)
- Crossover points are forced to be in series with each other (HP, BP, LP filters cannot be set independently)
They don't need to be separate. If you need to under or overlap your XO points then you have phase problems to correct first.
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      12-19-2010, 02:32 PM   #179
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I got my MS-8 replaced and re-installed. Aside from the gripes I had mentioned earlier, it is working quite well. As others have mentioned, it nearly ignores the underseat subs so I found improvement by increasing the those frequencies associated with those frequencies.

I did come across something that had me worried for a while. When I turned the subwoofer volume higher (The separate one not associted with the MS-8 at all - just the one on the sub amp), I would get a disconcerting popping out of channel 1 (MS-8 channel 1). I thought it might have something to do with the proximity of the MS-8 to the sub (about 5") but that didn't make much sense - even if I am driving it at 1100 watts.

Since I had been retrying different scenarios on the acoustic calibration, I left the microphone plugged in and the mic was left in the trunk with the sub. When I disconnected this, the popping went away. Problem solved.
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      12-20-2010, 01:52 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by DeFKnoL View Post
I left the microphone plugged in and the mic was left in the trunk with the sub.
Isn't that a pisser? I've made the same goof...
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      12-20-2010, 10:54 AM   #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VP Electricity View Post
Isn't that a pisser? I've made the same goof...
Just be glad you did not get the "jet engine" treatment... I did, and I will NEVER EVER forget to unplug that mic again!
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      12-20-2010, 11:07 AM   #182
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After reading a hundred posts about leaving the microphone plugged in, I tried, and for some reason, my system works fine with the microphone plugged in.
I am using an extension cord to bring the microphone plug into the cabin. Andy confirmed that it was OK to do so.

On an interesting note, the extension cord alone with no microphone plugged in fools the MS8 into thinking that the microphone is plugged in. I suggest one of you guys try to run a calibration with no microphone this way. The result is very interesting and I'm sure someone like VP would extrapolate a lot about what the MS8 really does from such a test.
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      01-03-2011, 07:27 PM   #183
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OK, i just installed the ms-8 into my HIFI system. The system is pretty much stock except for the tweeters which i have replaced. i thought this would be an interesting experiment since jbl markets this thing as to make the stock speakers sound great. I would say that it makes them sound much better, the sound is much more detailed and precise with the ms-8, however i think it is lacking since i do not have a center channel speaker. On some songs i am expecting more sound up around my head but its just not happening. Has anyone else started with no center channel then added one? How big of a difference was it? I am also a little confused after reading the posts about the oem center channel. technic has said that it is a coax, but it doesn't not look like one in the pictures, plus i see others added tweeters to theirs. If i need to buy one and add a tweeter i will probably just go with an after market speaker. Thanks for the info.
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      01-03-2011, 09:00 PM   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wagonmeister View Post
OK, i just installed the ms-8 into my HIFI system. The system is pretty much stock except for the tweeters which i have replaced. i thought this would be an interesting experiment since jbl markets this thing as to make the stock speakers sound great. I would say that it makes them sound much better, the sound is much more detailed and precise with the ms-8, however i think it is lacking since i do not have a center channel speaker. On some songs i am expecting more sound up around my head but its just not happening. Has anyone else started with no center channel then added one? How big of a difference was it? I am also a little confused after reading the posts about the oem center channel. technic has said that it is a coax, but it doesn't not look like one in the pictures, plus i see others added tweeters to theirs. If i need to buy one and add a tweeter i will probably just go with an after market speaker. Thanks for the info.
Glad to hear that the MS-8 makes a big improvement. I'm about to install it and it's good to know that there will be an improvement.

Regarding the center speaker, the OEM L7 center or if you use the the rear deck speaker from Hi-Fi are not coaxial, hence people adding a tweeter. However, I think the Indiv Audio one is coaxial. I will add a center speaker and I'm planning to use an aftermarket coaxial.
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      01-03-2011, 10:41 PM   #185
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Ahh, i see. There is yet another stereo option. Was the individual audio offered in the states?
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      01-03-2011, 11:38 PM   #186
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[quote=wagonmeister;8610083]On some songs i am expecting more sound up around my head but its just not happening.[\quote]

Why would you expect sound up around your head? I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean. If you mean a high stereo image, but forward and in the windshield, that can be accomplished without the center. JBL is on record as saying that the center helps most with delivering near-identical images from either seat.

But I suspect that is not what you mean... What do you mean?
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      01-04-2011, 12:24 AM   #187
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[quote=VP Electricity;8611598]
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Originally Posted by wagonmeister View Post
On some songs i am expecting more sound up around my head but its just not happening.[\quote]

Why would you expect sound up around your head? I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean. If you mean a high stereo image, but forward and in the windshield, that can be accomplished without the center. JBL is on record as saying that the center helps most with delivering near-identical images from either seat.

But I suspect that is not what you mean... What do you mean?


Well this may be too dificult to explain, but i'll try. Obviously after the install i have gone through my music collection to see how different things sound. I know of one particular song that towards the beginning gives a twinkling sound from the percussion (i am not completely sure the name of the instrument, chimes maybe?), anyway, i guess with the processing i was imaging that they would sound like they are all around me, but they sound like they are more coming from the passenger door. Maybe this an unrealistic expectation. An additional question for you though, do you turn on the logic7 without the center channel? Or is it really meant for the center channel. i have had the logic 7 on. Thanks.
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      01-04-2011, 01:49 AM   #188
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Well, I think you may be expecting Logic 7 to do exactly the same sort of BS that has made me hate every surround processor for music since the beginning of time.

If you look into the Lexicon Logic 7 technology, it's really intended to recreate the sense of listening to musicians perform - in front of you - in a room. The center and the rears serve this purpose. I think you may like it better with Logic 7 off, because the rear speakers will be louder.

If you have no center, and your rears are set up as rears and not "sides", then Logic 7 may not be doing anything at all to your sound. Theoretically, you can get some benefit from having sides only and no center...but it still won't make the drum kit fly around your head or anything.

You may want to read the Wikipedia article on "stereophonic sound". It conveys better than I, the goal of a stereo system.
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      01-04-2011, 12:53 PM   #189
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Ok, that helps. I guess when i was thinking of 7.1 surround sound I was thinking of watching a movie with sound flying around my head. Apparently logic 7 music mode is different than theatre mode. I will listen again with this in mind.
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      01-04-2011, 01:54 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by VP Electricity View Post
...but it still won't make the drum kit fly around your head or anything.
if it did, imagine the liability for BMW
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      01-04-2011, 04:26 PM   #191
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One other thing to consider is the source. I can hear a huge difference in the quality of "shimmer" between CD audio or lossless WMA vs 128/192 kbps MP3. After upgrading my speakers and adding the MS-8 I can also differentiate between 320 kbps MP3 and lossless.
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      01-05-2011, 10:22 AM   #192
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I added a center channel to my system. I first installed the Mid alone, then I added a tweeter. After a few days of tweaking and running acoustic calibrations, I removed the tweeter because it was just "too much" and I got a better center image without it. Also, it got pretty hot since it was on top of a vent and it is pretty cold where I am right now.

Center made L7 more convincing but I have to admit that I prefer when music comes from all around instead of in front of me, and bass comes from behind. Of course thatreally depends on the kind of music being played but that would be a general rule.

Any idea how to make the center speaker play when not in L7 mode? The MS8 shuts it off. Would rears help? I recall reading a post on dyima that said that rears helped center a lot?
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      01-05-2011, 12:27 PM   #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirrus View Post
One other thing to consider is the source. I can hear a huge difference in the quality of "shimmer" between CD audio or lossless WMA vs 128/192 kbps MP3. After upgrading my speakers and adding the MS-8 I can also differentiate between 320 kbps MP3 and lossless.
Well I actually throught about this but never looked into it. I have been listening mainly from my ipod up to this point. After throwing a few cd's in there, it does sound better. It actually seems to sound better with cd's that i burned from itunes as well. From what i understand, the encoding should be the same. So either the ipod itself or its connection is causing the problem. The next question is, will i hear much difference between the itunes cd's (aac encoding) and the real cd or lossless wma?
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      01-05-2011, 01:12 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by wagonmeister View Post
Apparently logic 7 music mode is different than theatre mode. I will listen again with this in mind.
Yes, and musical recording is different from cinema sound. With movies, we are literally supposed to hear special effects happen from all directions - the ubiquitous helicopter flying overhead, or the planes taking off in Top Gun (dear God, let me never see that movie in a demo room again - it's like the Michael McDonald video in The 40-Year-Old Virgin).

Recordings of musicians, with few exceptions, are supposed to convey the illusion of a performance happening in front of you. Logic 7 is only supposed to make the performance happening in front of you seem more realistic due to recreation of the acoustic cues that real rooms have in them - but it's not supposed to put you on the stage in the middle of the performers.

There are a couple of genres where this front-stage musical illusion is not needed. Most of them are electronic dance music where the actual venue is a club, and hearing music all around you is what you do when you're in a club.

But most musical performances are recorded with some attempt to retain the location cues that are possible in two-channel stereo. The singer's over here, the drummer's over there, and the guitar is over there - but they are all in front of you. Unless you have a windbreaker at home that says SECURITY on the back, you listen to performances facing the performers.

If all you listen to is hip-hop, or rap, or techno/electronica, then imaging and staging are not valuable. But if you listen to other kinds of music, and you don't know the potential of stereo sound, you may be missing out on a good deal of what's possible with a good stereo recording.

If you read the Lexicon white papers on their site, it's not clear that Logic 7 really works that well unless the original recording was made with Logic 7. I suspect that Harman is actually bundling some other "surround-ish" technologies into the MS-8 and presenting them as being Logic 7 - when in fact, it may not be.
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      01-05-2011, 02:37 PM   #195
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That's what I thought. I mainly listen to electronic/hip-hop and rap music. Occasionally I listen to Eric Clapton or Eagles and I think Logic 7 worked but if I remember correctly I thought it sounded weird and never gave my ears a chance to get used to it.
VP, do you know of any music or specific tracks that are a good test for imaging? Do you know of any that were mixed using L7 technology?
JBL could/should have put some test tracks on their calibration CD. There is plenty of room on it for that.
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      01-05-2011, 04:31 PM   #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oca123 View Post
That's what I thought. I mainly listen to electronic/hip-hop and rap music. Occasionally I listen to Eric Clapton or Eagles and I think Logic 7 worked but if I remember correctly I thought it sounded weird and never gave my ears a chance to get used to it.

VP, do you know of any music or specific tracks that are a good test for imaging? Do you know of any that were mixed using L7 technology?
JBL could/should have put some test tracks on their calibration CD. There is plenty of room on it for that.
I do not. You might find this interesting, though.
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      01-05-2011, 05:07 PM   #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VP Electricity View Post
If you read the Lexicon white papers on their site, it's not clear that Logic 7 really works that well unless the original recording was made with Logic 7. I suspect that Harman is actually bundling some other "surround-ish" technologies into the MS-8 and presenting them as being Logic 7 - when in fact, it may not be.

I found this info online

click

At least for cinema anyway, it says logic 7 processing is used to create 5.1 or 7.1 surround fields from old movies that don't have the encoding
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      01-05-2011, 05:19 PM   #198
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Yeah, for home processors, I think they switch between cinema and music modes, judging by the white paper I linked to in the prior post... but for the MS-8, I am certain that they went music only (they've publicly said so). Otherwise, they would have put a Toslink on it
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