E90Post
 


Lux Angel Eyes
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > How does all this torque help?



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      04-21-2007, 02:11 PM   #1
E90ice
Banned
 
E90ice's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 335xi Coupe
Join Date: May 2006
Location: WA

Posts: 2,004
iTrader: (0)

How does all this torque help?

I don't understand why there is all this talk about the torque?

How does it help?

E60 M5 500hp and 386 torque:

0-60 - 4.5 sec
1/4 mile - 12.3

E55 AMG 500 hp and 517 torque:
0-60 - 4.5 sec
1/4 mile - 12.4 (Road & Track)

The M5 is just as fast with much less torque than the E55.

So, why alll this talk about the torque? Not trying to flame anything or anyone...just wondering....
__________________
E90ice is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-21-2007, 02:14 PM   #2
Terry335
Banned
 
Drives: 335i
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Socal

Posts: 2,587
iTrader: (0)

Maybe the E55 AMG car started in 4th gear?
Terry335 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      04-21-2007, 02:28 PM   #3
Walked U
Brigadier General
 
Drives: RR sport s/c, E82, E89 3.5is
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: USA

Posts: 3,118
iTrader: (5)

Hp = how fast youll hit a wall.

Tq = How far youll take a wall with you.
__________________
Previous - E90 335i, E82
Current - E89 / Range Rover sport Super charged.
Walked U is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-21-2007, 02:35 PM   #4
Stein
Go Blazers!
 
Stein's Avatar
 
Drives: FG2
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: 503

Posts: 118
iTrader: (0)

Around town, passing, etc. torque is nice for the get up and GO but on acceleration tests, horsepower takes over.
Stein is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-21-2007, 02:38 PM   #5
leftcoastman
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Drives: 335i
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Near some canyons

Posts: 1,710
iTrader: (1)

Nah, they both weight about the same, ~4000 lbs.

These snapshot numbers are just that, snapshot. You need to look at the entire curve. A car with a fat torque curve that peaks at 400lb-ft is much faster than a car that has a skinny curve with a 400lb-ft peak.

Remember, you don't drive at the peak all day, you sweep through the revs.
leftcoastman is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-21-2007, 02:41 PM   #6
MacAttack
Colonel
 
MacAttack's Avatar
 
Drives: fast enough
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Afghanistan

Posts: 2,138
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2007 BMW  [0.00]
Torque pulls you back into the seat. Better than a Chiropractor.
__________________
2007 E92 335i Coupe: Monaco Blue/Premium/Sports/Winter Package/Nav/CA/6MT/TT/Active Cruise/Active Steering/iPod/Rear Shade/Tint/Short Shifter/OEM Alum Pedals//
MacAttack is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      04-21-2007, 02:42 PM   #7
Walked U
Brigadier General
 
Drives: RR sport s/c, E82, E89 3.5is
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: USA

Posts: 3,118
iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by leftcoastman View Post
Nah, they both weight about the same, ~4000 lbs.

These snapshot numbers are just that, snapshot. You need to look at the entire curve. A car with a fat torque curve that peaks at 400lb-ft is much faster than a car that has a skinny curve with a 400lb-ft peak.

Remember, you don't drive at the peak all day, you sweep through the revs.
+1

I didnt notice they both weighed the same.
__________________
Previous - E90 335i, E82
Current - E89 / Range Rover sport Super charged.
Walked U is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-21-2007, 03:22 PM   #8
Carnage
Lieutenant General
 
Carnage's Avatar
 
Drives: people insane
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: classified

Posts: 16,404
iTrader: (2)

There's alot more to it then just numbers. Weight, gearing and the way the power is distributed all play a part.
Carnage is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      04-21-2007, 03:39 PM   #9
HyperM3
Too many Alex's, from now on, call me Beaufort
 
HyperM3's Avatar
 
Drives: See Sig
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Lawrenceville, NJ

Posts: 6,169
iTrader: (8)

Send a message via AIM to HyperM3 Send a message via Yahoo to HyperM3
A blowjob is still a blowjob no matter the difference in suction...
__________________
13 HD FatBob
14 Audi S6
Audi Brand Specialist @ Princeton Audi
HyperM3 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      04-21-2007, 03:50 PM   #10
Italteen3
Captain
 
Drives: 135i JB
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Somewhere.....

Posts: 766
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperM3 View Post
A blowjob is still a blowjob no matter the difference in suction...
You've never had a girl that used her teeth then.....
Italteen3 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-21-2007, 03:58 PM   #11
hands on
Private First Class
 
Drives: 07 335i coupe, Titanium/Saddle
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: UT

Posts: 124
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacAttack View Post
Torque pulls you back into the seat. Better than a Chiropractor.
Really? Maybe all my patients should be driving 335s
hands on is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-21-2007, 04:00 PM   #12
CokerRat
Private
 
CokerRat's Avatar
 
Drives: 2007 E90 335i
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Canada

Posts: 96
iTrader: (0)

Horsepower is what ultimately makes a car go fast -- it is a measure of power output. Torque is a measure of how much twist the engine will make... but torque is important in how the curve looks over the whole rpm range. Torque made at higher rpm's allows you to take advantage of gearing so that you get the same acceleration force at the wheels as cars making more torque but at lower rpms.

They are directly related by the equation hp = torque x rpm / 5252

Cases in point: Some diesel pickup trucks have 600 ft-lbs of torque (made at very low rpm) but are slower than molasses. On the other extreme, a Honda S2000 has very little torque but makes it at high rpm and thus makes decent power (and resulting excellent acceleration when you keep it in the powerband).
CokerRat is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-21-2007, 04:31 PM   #13
HyperM3
Too many Alex's, from now on, call me Beaufort
 
HyperM3's Avatar
 
Drives: See Sig
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Lawrenceville, NJ

Posts: 6,169
iTrader: (8)

Send a message via AIM to HyperM3 Send a message via Yahoo to HyperM3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Italteen3 View Post
You've never had a girl that used her teeth then.....
You just took my metaphore to a whole other level.
__________________
13 HD FatBob
14 Audi S6
Audi Brand Specialist @ Princeton Audi
HyperM3 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      04-21-2007, 05:25 PM   #14
TiAg335i
Trance Life
 
TiAg335i's Avatar
 
Drives: 2007 E92 335i
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Long Island, NY

Posts: 4,711
iTrader: (4)

Torque = the amount of turning force at crankshaft
Horsepower = the rate at which the crankshaft turns

That's at least what I think they are..
TiAg335i is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      04-21-2007, 05:34 PM   #15
NFS
Major General
 
NFS's Avatar
 
Drives: 335i m-sport LCI
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: UK

Posts: 9,216
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by E90ice View Post
I don't understand why there is all this talk about the torque?

How does it help?

E60 M5 500hp and 386 torque:

0-60 - 4.5 sec
1/4 mile - 12.3

E55 AMG 500 hp and 517 torque:
0-60 - 4.5 sec
1/4 mile - 12.4 (Road & Track)

The M5 is just as fast with much less torque than the E55.

So, why alll this talk about the torque? Not trying to flame anything or anyone...just wondering....
Torque and horsepower are very similar.

Torque is the rotational force that turns the wheels. Horsepower is torque at a particular rpm.

Peak torque is not particularly relevant. You need to look at the torque CURVE. This indicates torque accross the rev range.

You also need to stop thinking about engine torque. Acceleration is greatest when torque at the wheels is greatest.

To understand torque at the wheels you need to look at gearing. Gearing multiplies torque. This is why cars accelerate hardest in lower gears because they multiply the torque more.

The gearing and redline are the key differences between the 2 cars you have posted above.

The Merc has much more torque but about the same HP. This suggests that the redline comes earlier because HP = torque at a given rpm. The 2 cars also have different gearing and (I think) a different number of gears.

The multiplying affect of gearing is extremely important and torque at high revs is very useful because it can be multiplied more.

This is why the M5 is as quick even though it has less torque.
__________________
NFS is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
      04-21-2007, 06:31 PM   #16
purplewidow
Lieutenant Colonel
 
purplewidow's Avatar
 
Drives: e92 335
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Chicago

Posts: 1,928
iTrader: (2)

actually if you have been reading m5 owners are getting spanked by e55 e63 cls 55 cls63 cl55 cl63 s55 and soon to be s63 ....the torque allows for power throughout the power band...i another note i couldn't even keep up with a 335 in the s55 cause of how nimble it is...mercs are great in a straight line but weaving in and out of traffic better suits a small car...but if there was no traffic and i could just gunn it no 335 with a procede or not could catch me....the s55's torque is crazy powerful!!!! people are getting 4.1 0-60 and late 11's on the quartes in the s600 which is supposed to be slower than a 63 or 55....it's crazy just wish AMG's could handle as well as they pull and there steering was as good as bmw....there would be no competition for merc then they would own...but i gotta say i see a hell of a lot more cls, cl, s, and e class amg's than i see m5's and m6's...bmw's big mistake was making the car solely for the smg...what car company offers just the shitty smg even though europe loves it america hates it...then they come out with an even crappier 6sp and it is soooo crappy cause the car was never designed for it in the first place....i am shocked at how shitty the m5 is and how the options for it in terms of trani's suck ass.... no one want's to get there ass handed to them by a merc and in the s55 which is an 03' i rock the shit out of them on the highway, where 90% of the owners have fun with there car...on a track the m5 hands down will kill an amg but damn do they suck in a straight line comparison....i know europe loves the smg and it suites there mountainous driving style more but here in most parts of the US where people own m5's and amg's they aren't concerned with the car beating the merc on a track...they care about real life and comfort and the amg's just kill the m's for that reason....all this talk aout 420 hp and only 289 torque in the new m3....the new merc is gonna have aroung 480 in both the clk has i believe more than 500ft/lbs of torque at least 480...this will make it suck ass on a track cause it will just keep pealing out after a turn which is why bmw relies more on revs and hp to make power than torque....hence why the bmw will win on a track and the merc on the highway
________
Michigan marijuana dispensary

Last edited by purplewidow; 03-29-2011 at 08:17 PM.
purplewidow is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      04-21-2007, 07:17 PM   #17
leftcoastman
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Drives: 335i
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Near some canyons

Posts: 1,710
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by needforspeed View Post
Torque and horsepower are very similar.

To understand torque at the wheels you need to look at gearing. Gearing multiplies torque. This is why cars accelerate hardest in lower gears because they multiply the torque more.
While I agree that torque in and of itself isn't enough to determine how fast a car is, I wouldn't say it's so simple to say that torque multiplication is what makes low gear acceleration so rapid.

At low gearing, you are travelling at low speed. Air resistance increases as a square of speed. At higher gears, you're probably going at a high speed, therefore the power necessary to overcome that air resistance (which has been growing as a square) is much higher.
leftcoastman is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-21-2007, 08:07 PM   #18
De90man
First Lieutenant
 
Drives: F30 335i Sedan
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Los Angeles

Posts: 350
iTrader: (1)

The reason Merc's engines are tuned/designed to have so much torque is that it fits their luxurious character.

Torque moves a large heavy car away from a stop light with little effort...which feels 'luxurious.' Makes the driver feel powerful b/c there is so much reserve.

That's why past Bentley/Rolls used slow revving 6.7 liter engines with insanely low redlines and have a power reserve gauge on the dash...they want you to know how little their engines are working ("Out of my way peasant!!").

This charactersitic is why BMWs inline-6 is so loved. It's one half of a V12....perfectly balanced and it feels rich with torque, yet nimble. This makes the TT 6 so incredible...it's never 'off cam.' A racing clydesdale if there was such a thing.

This is the hey dey of the modern combustion engine. Drive em' while we got em'

Still not a good idea to try and out pull a Merc with a 63 or 55 on the back
De90man is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-21-2007, 08:30 PM   #19
purplewidow
Lieutenant Colonel
 
purplewidow's Avatar
 
Drives: e92 335
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Chicago

Posts: 1,928
iTrader: (2)

hahahahah went to grab some food and saw an m5 aston db9 convertable, porche 997 gt3, and last but not least an e92 335 all in the glen just north of chicago(a residential community with an outdoor shopping area with some good restaurants as well)...needless to say glad i chose there to eat got to see a new gt3!!!! hawwwt and i was talking to a guy with an m5 and he said the same thing the smg sucks and when he went to go drive the 6spd he said it is soo jerky you may as well stick with the smg...he couldn't understand how they could make a great great car with a shittie trans as well!!!
________
HEALTH SHOP

Last edited by purplewidow; 03-29-2011 at 08:18 PM.
purplewidow is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      04-21-2007, 08:38 PM   #20
scalbert
Major General
 
scalbert's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 E90 M3, '13 Volt, '08 Ody
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Woodstock, GA

Posts: 5,710
iTrader: (7)

This is an old write up but one of the better simplistic explanations I have seen.

Horsepower and Torque

A Quick quote:

Quote:
OK. If torque is so all-fired important, why do we care about horsepower?
Because (to quote a friend), "It is better to make torque at high rpm than at low rpm, because you can take advantage of *gearing*.

Last edited by scalbert; 04-21-2007 at 08:58 PM.
scalbert is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-21-2007, 08:56 PM   #21
BoostedBMW
Moderator
 
BoostedBMW's Avatar
 
Drives: TiAg E92 335
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Raleigh, NC

Posts: 6,787
iTrader: (14)

Garage List
2003 S2000  [0.00]
Send a message via AIM to BoostedBMW
There is more to making a car fast in a straight line then just HP and TQ. Have you ever heard of gearing and weight before?
__________________
-Michael.
Berlina Black S2000 CR is now in the garage

l 19" Rial Daytona Race l KW V2 l Eisenhaus Race Exhaust l
BoostedBMW is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      04-21-2007, 10:01 PM   #22
turbocoins
Captain
 
turbocoins's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 Z06, '07 MKZ
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Warm Climate

Posts: 751
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by De90man View Post
The reason Merc's engines are tuned/designed to have so much torque is that it fits their luxurious character.

Torque moves a large heavy car away from a stop light with little effort...which feels 'luxurious.' Makes the driver feel powerful b/c there is so much reserve.

That's why past Bentley/Rolls used slow revving 6.7 liter engines with insanely low redlines and have a power reserve gauge on the dash...they want you to know how little their engines are working ("Out of my way peasant!!").

This charactersitic is why BMWs inline-6 is so loved. It's one half of a V12....perfectly balanced and it feels rich with torque, yet nimble. This makes the TT 6 so incredible...it's never 'off cam.' A racing clydesdale if there was such a thing.

This is the hey dey of the modern combustion engine. Drive em' while we got em'

Still not a good idea to try and out pull a Merc with a 63 or 55 on the back
Nice writeup!
turbocoins is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:53 AM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST