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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Stock vs JB4 Map 5/autotuning & Map 1 at high altitude



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      03-12-2011, 06:56 PM   #1
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Stock vs JB4 Map 5/autotuning & Map 1 at high altitude

**Initial Disclaimer: My car is running 91 octane gas at 5200 ft elevation (the dyno itself is at 6000 ft elevation IIRC). All numbers are fully corrected in order to compare numbers on different days. Because turbocharged vehicles do not lose as much power at elevation as naturally aspirated vehicles, full corrections over-inflate the values of turbo cars. As such, please pay no attention to the inflated peak values, but instead focus on the shape of the curves, and the delta/differences between them. **

So I went to the local dyno today (MAC Autosport in Parker, CO) to make a few pulls. The first two were with the JB4ís map 5/autotuning/autoPID map enabled after driving on it for about a week now. The last pull was with map 4 enabled, which is stock but with CAN active so that I could log it. I compared these runs to runs I had previously made on the same dyno almost a month and a half ago with the JB4ís old firmware version map 1.

So, hereís the breakdown:
Run1: JB4 Map 1 (firmware version 1/1/2011) on 1/29/2011
Run2: JB4 Map 1 (firmware version 1/1/2011) on 1/29/2011
Run3: JB4 Map 5/autotuning (firmware version 2/21/2011) on 3/12/2011
Run4: JB4 Map 5/autotuning (firmware version 2/21/2011) on 3/12/2011
Run5: Stock (Map 4/stock map but with CAN active for tuning) on 3/12/2011

Unfortunately, when logging the first two runs, I didnít save the log files, so I apologize about that, but for reference, I was seeing 5-6 degree timing drops, with timing going negative in the upper RPMís, hence me pulling the JB4 off of the car for over a month. I did however save the logs from todayís runs, which will be listed in order below.

As you can see, timing is not very pretty on any of these runs, not even stock. However, the ~3 degree timing drops stock & via autotuning are not as severe and never go negative like I saw with map 1 on the old firmware. As mentioned above, Iím at 5200-6000 ft elevation on 91 octane, so other than temps (which were in the 50's today, but slightly warmer in the shop, mid 60's IIRC), think of this as just about as harsh of conditions as youíre going to see haha!

So, the dynosÖ. As you can see from the logs, autotuning is barely pushing anymore boost than the DME is trying to target, and as such, is only making about an extra ~17whp over stock. Map 5/autotuning is also losing about ~37whp vs map 1. Map 1 is making good power, about ~54whp over stock, but as you can see thereís a significant drop in boost/torque around ~5700rpm and on the street, it was not as consistent as map 5. However, as you can see from the drastic reduction in power from map 1 to map 5, the DME/JB4 is not very happy with much over stock boost on the factory timing table.

As Terry has mentioned to me before, on the JB3 at high elevation, they generally required a good amount of custom tuning. As you can see, the logs are not the pretty, nor are the curves very smooth. I would say that at my elevation, a good custom tune is in order.

Cobb: Hurry up with the í07 support & ATR software haha. My prediction: Iíll bet on the same dyno with a custom tune I can likely hit around ~360whp & 430wtq (same correction) with cleaner timing logs, richer AFRís and more boost. Thatís just speculation, but I have a strong feeling Iíll be able to prove it shortly If not, Iíll gladly eat my words, but again, Iím pretty confident about my prediction. Weíll see shortly, and yes, of course Iíll be posting dynos and logs with my findings.

Here are all 5 runs together:

Here are the highest runs from Map 1, Map 5/autotuning & stock:

Here is the log from Run 3 (map 5):

Here is the log from Run 4 (map 5):

Here is the log from Run 5 (stock/map 4 for CAN active logging):


Cliff notes: Autotuning + high elevation & 91 octane gas donít make much more power over stock. Timing could use a good amount of work, even from the factory at my location. My faith in custom tuning for a personís specific car & environment over OTS maps is once again reaffirmed.

Cheers,

Brandon
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      03-12-2011, 07:07 PM   #2
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Makes sense given how map5 is programmed. If you're seeing timing drops map5 will continue to lower it's boost target until they subside or it hits the floor at 11psi. At elevation the factory boost target is around 10psi, and you're seeing drops there as well, so map5 is just going to drop down to the min level. In situations like yours (high elevation / poor gas) richening up the air/fuel ratio can help. It's under user settings.

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      03-12-2011, 07:07 PM   #3
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great sum up man and i can just tell you that you would get better results with a tune providing 3 degrees CPS offsetting especially with the gas your are running and altitude.
That ignition curve really sucks ...
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      03-12-2011, 07:14 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
Makes sense given how map5 is programmed. If you're seeing timing drops map5 will continue to lower it's boost target until they subside or it hits the floor at 11psi. At elevation the factory boost target is around 10psi, and you're seeing drops there as well, so map5 is just going to drop down to the min level. In situations like yours (high elevation / poor gas) richening up the air/fuel ratio can help. It's under user settings.

Mike
Yeah, I'll be playing around with fuel and timing settings (as well as boost obviously) when Cobb releases an AP & ATR support. I considered playing with the A/F additive table, but didn't want to touch anything in order to show what the OTS maps would look like in comparison to each other.

Under my local conditions (high elevation & 91 octane), I'm sure you can understand why I've always been a big advocate of custom tuning.
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      03-12-2011, 07:17 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enrita View Post
great sum up man and i can just tell you that you would get better results with a tune providing 3 degrees CPS offsetting especially with the gas your are running and altitude.
That ignition curve really sucks ...
Thanks buddy.

Yeah, but instead of just adding a straight 3 degree CPS offset across the board, I'm just going to wait for Cobb's future releases and just alter the base timing maps themselves based on feedback while tuning.
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      03-12-2011, 07:18 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enrita View Post
great sum up man and i can just tell you that you would get better results with a tune providing 3 degrees CPS offsetting especially with the gas your are running and altitude.
That ignition curve really sucks ...
He can plug the BMS CPS module in soon and offset as much as he wants. Based on other 91 octane testing I've seen he will need to offset around 7 degrees to eliminate the drops and then will need to increase boost from 11psi to 13-14psi just to break even again on power. What he really needs is higher octane. A richer AFR will also help. High elevation + poor gas + all wheel drive does not make for great tuning potential.

Mike
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      03-12-2011, 07:31 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
He can plug the BMS CPS module in soon and offset as much as he wants. Based on other 91 octane testing I've seen he will need to offset around 7 degrees to eliminate the drops and then will need to increase boost from 11psi to 13-14psi just to break even again on power. What he really needs is higher octane. A richer AFR will also help. High elevation + poor gas + all wheel drive does not make for great tuning potential.

Mike
For reference, another local 335xi on the same dyno put down around ~389whp IIRC with full bolt-ons & Procede, and I'm pretty sure he was running straight 91 octane (no meth). The guy put down roughly the same numbers stock as I did (both around ~280whp & both AWD). Again, same dyno:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=438054

^^^I've seen the graph at MAC (looks like it was removed from his thread), pretty smooth as well. Admittedly haven't seen the logs, but IIRC he was running Procede autotuning for reference. So there's some tuning potential, how much on an otherwise stock car remains to be seen, but won't be a mystery much longer.
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      03-12-2011, 07:46 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roninsoldier83 View Post
For reference, another local 335xi on the same dyno put down around ~389whp IIRC with full bolt-ons & Procede, and I'm pretty sure he was running straight 91 octane (no meth). The guy put down roughly the same numbers stock as I did (both around ~280whp & both AWD). Again, same dyno:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=438054

^^^I've seen the graph at MAC (looks like it was removed from his thread), pretty smooth as well. Admittedly haven't seen the logs, but IIRC he was running Procede autotuning for reference. So there's some tuning potential, how much on an otherwise stock car remains to be seen, but won't be a mystery much longer.
Downpipes, intake, and intercooler definitely change things for the better. It sounds like it's going to be awhile on the Cobb ATR / 2007 support? If so your conditions make you a good candidate for CPS module testing if you're interested.

Mike
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      03-12-2011, 07:48 PM   #9
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Do you have any other supporting mods besides the JB4?
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      03-12-2011, 07:56 PM   #10
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What dyne shop did you use? And let's see those numbers uncorrected.
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      03-12-2011, 08:34 PM   #11
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What dyne shop did you use? And let's see those numbers uncorrected.
I think he said MAC autosport. They are in Parker IIRC.
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      03-12-2011, 09:03 PM   #12
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You are correct sir... my bad.

I'd still like to see the uncorrected graphs to compare it to my various Mac dynos over the years.
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      03-12-2011, 09:17 PM   #13
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Quote:
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Downpipes, intake, and intercooler definitely change things for the better. It sounds like it's going to be awhile on the Cobb ATR / 2007 support? If so your conditions make you a good candidate for CPS module testing if you're interested.

Mike
I might just be willing to take you up on your offer and do a little testing I'll hit Terry up.

-Brandon
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      03-12-2011, 09:30 PM   #14
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Do you have any other supporting mods besides the JB4?
No sir, bone stock. I went a little overboard on a few of my previous cars haha, trying to avoid the temptation on this one haha. I keep reminding myself "this is your daily driver" and "if you want another track car, buy an old Miata, it'll be cheaper to fix when something breaks" haha!!

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You are correct sir... my bad.

I'd still like to see the uncorrected graphs to compare it to my various Mac dynos over the years.
Sure, knock yourself out




Although peak numbers really don't mean much IMO, but as we all know correction factors at high altitude make turbo cars appear to be overly inflated (stated in original post above), but honestly it doesn't really matter, the only thing that matters IMO is the gains over stock and shape of the curve. Dyno's are a tool to help quantify gains, not a machine that spits out magical e-penis numbers haha. With that said, of course everyone knows no two dynos are created equal, and I'm sure most people would say "I think something is broken" if I came back with uncorrected numbers from Revolutions Performance in the Springs haha, their Dyno Dynamics isn't exactly known for spitting out confidence boosting Superman style numbers

In truth, when it comes time to actually tune the car, I probably won't bring it back to MAC though, I'll probably hit up Harvey's Dyno Dynamics (BoostCreep) up in Longmont, as I'm a big fan of load bearing dynos (vs inertial) for anything other than WOT tuning, but will likely strap the car back down on MAC's dyno after tuning just to have an apples to apples comparison. I only left correction on in the above dynos in order to compensate for differences in environments on different days. The Dyno Dynamics a few of the local tuners run allow you to enter correction, most of which use a "half" correction factor for turbo cars up here, but unfortunately, Dynojets have no such thing as user input correction, so it's either all or nothing.
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      03-13-2011, 09:52 AM   #15
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Mkes you wonder where these adapative long term knock setting are.....because based on those logs, they don't exsist.
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      03-13-2011, 10:47 PM   #16
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Map 1 with high elevation, shit gas and not even an intake?

i'm not surprised the car hated itself HAHA !!!

would a fmic help?
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      03-13-2011, 10:52 PM   #17
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Map 1 with high elevation, shit gas and not even an intake?

i'm not surprised the car hated itself HAHA !!!

would a fmic help?
A FMIC should make more of a differance at altitude since the turbo's have to work harder to achieve the desired boost target. This means that IATs will be higher at altitude for the same boost target vs sea level. A good FMIC should help compensate. At least thats what I'm telling myself as I prepare to drop almost $1k on an FMIC
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      03-13-2011, 11:06 PM   #18
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At least thats what I'm telling myself as I prepare to drop almost $1k on an FMIC
don't do it !!!!!!

get the direct fit ETS and you'll love life forever !!!!!
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      03-13-2011, 11:29 PM   #19
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Quote:
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Map 1 with high elevation, shit gas and not even an intake?

i'm not surprised the car hated itself HAHA !!!

would a fmic help?
Look closer... the car isn't very happy stock at this elevation, but yes it didn't take too well to map 1. Made decent power obviously, but I didn't care for the look of the logs.

However, you're missing the point... I'm willing to bet by tuning the car myself I can make more power than map 1 (and considerably more than map 5/autotuning) when Cobb releases '07 support and ATR software, without the drastic drops in timing by running the car a bit richer and making a solid timing map. OTS maps often leave a lot to be desired, especially when they don't take timing into consideration.

Other than tuning the car, I'm not planning on modding this car. On my STI I went a little overboard... ran that car in SCCA AS (before they got bumped down to BS recently), STU and eventually BSP, as well as on local road courses (High Plains raceway & PMP), canyon runs ect. Before I knew it that car had full bolt-ons running E85 daily (talk about a PITA, the gas light coming on around ~180-200 miles per tank and driving out of my way to get to E85 pumps)... and of course, the car ended up with full coilovers, camber plates up front/Group N's in the rear, sway bars, ALK (+free caster mod, picked up almost a full 1* of positive caster from those two things!), wide sticky summer rubber, the prerequisite upgrades brake lines/pads/fluid ect, and a lifetime alignment agreement with the local Firestone- I came to know their manager pretty well, as I came in for alignments on a regular basis (had them dial in lots of negative camber up front prior to any track events).

It was fun, but I went overboard with a car that was essentially my daily driver, that car was tough to live with as a daily, and I was always paranoid about any new noise the car developed haha. I'm not looking to mod the 335, as it's my daily, so I'm just going to tune it to pick up a few ponies and make sure it's running kosher. If I get the mod bug, I've already decided I'm just going to pick up an older car I can beat the hell out of and not care about haha. An older Miata or another MR2 is on the top of my list right now, even though the Miata would ultimately be cheaper to mod and replace parts on. I won't lie, the idea of a 5.0 V8 swap in a Miata has always been appealing to me.... Maybe I'll pick one up this year


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      03-13-2011, 11:40 PM   #20
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      03-14-2011, 12:46 PM   #21
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I hate our altitude......

It makes alot of sense though. When Ive gone to Bandimere I put race gas in (100) and its probably getting me 94-95 octane and the car, STOCK, runs much smoother and better.
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      03-14-2011, 11:29 PM   #22
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don't do it !!!!!!

get the direct fit ETS and you'll love life forever !!!!!
Do you have the 5" or the 7"? I was really liking the ETS, but I'd like some performance data on the 5" before pulling the trigger...
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