E90Post
 


VIBE Motorsports
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Technical Forums > Mechanical Maintenance: Break-in / Oil & Fluids / Servicing / Warranty > The Law's stance on BMW LL oils, and warranty



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      05-11-2011, 11:09 AM   #1
Turkeybaster115
Banned
 
Drives: 335I
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Illinois

Posts: 1,544
iTrader: (2)

The Law's stance on BMW LL oils, and warranty

There are too many threads these days that start off with civil discussion or question about engine oils, but end up with someone trying to force their opinion of so-called "BMW approved oils" down the OP's throat. These claims are then backed up by warranty threats. Legally speaking, in the US, here is the official stance on any car manufacturer, and ANY type of fluid:

"Vehicle manufacturers are restricted
by federal law from including the requirement of the use of a specific brand or trade name of product or service
as a condition of their warranty. The following is an extract from the Federal Trade Commissionís web site on
interpretation of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act:
"Tie-In Sales" Provisions Generally, tie-in sales provisions are not allowed. Such a
provision would require a purchaser of the warranted product to buy an item or service from a
particular company to use with the warranted product in order to be eligible to receive a
remedy under the warranty. The following are examples of prohibited tie-in sales provisions.
In order to keep your new Plenum Brand Vacuum Cleaner warranty in
effect, you must use genuine Plenum Brand Filter Bags. Failure to have
scheduled maintenance performed, at your expense, by the Great American
Maintenance Company, Inc., voids this warranty.
"
Turkeybaster115 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-11-2011, 12:07 PM   #2
Socom
BMWCCA since '03
 
Drives: 2015 435i
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Atl.

Posts: 5,275
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrackRat View Post
For those who actually read the entire Magnuson-Moss Act and understand the legal issues, you will see that it does NOT state that you can use ANY engine oil. It states that you can use ANY OIL APPROVED for your engine under your Warranty REQUIREMENTS. If you read your BMW new vehicle warranty it REQUIRES you to use LL-01 oils of the proper viscosity to maintain your engine warranty.

This is NOT a tie-in as defined by the MM Act. You can use ANY BMW LL-01 approved oil of the proper viscosity. Your warranty however can be voided if you use a NON BMW LL-01 approved oil of the proper viscosity.

Turkeybaster continuously posts half-truths and technically incorrect oil information because he does not understand the subject matter. This false information can cost you your engine warranty and even engine damage so PLEASE read your OM so that you are an informed BMW owner and know your warranty obligations.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=529230
+1
Socom is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-11-2011, 12:21 PM   #3
ska///235i
***** noob
 
ska///235i's Avatar
 
Drives: M235i
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Boston

Posts: 9,077
iTrader: (32)

Garage List
2006 325xi  [0.00]
wow...you two need to stop this crab on telling ppl what they should or should not use.

If a topic is to ask what type of oil is LL01 approved, then go ahead and voice your opinion.

i have seen you guys for over 2 years on this board, are you guys BMW police?????
ska///235i is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-11-2011, 12:22 PM   #4
Tom K.
Major General
 
Tom K.'s Avatar
 
Drives: '07 328iT, '13 Boxster
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Maryland

Posts: 5,377
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrackRat View Post
Turkeybaster continuously posts half-truths and technically incorrect oil information because he does not understand the subject matter. This false information can cost you your engine warranty and even engine damage so PLEASE read your OM so that you are an informed BMW owner and know your warranty obligations.
But didn't he say in an earlier thread that the oil should be changed every 3,000 miles? I plan to do that in my 2 Bimmers and my Beemer, saving money by using bacon fat & other pan drippings (all 5w30, of course) which (he claims) won't void any warranties.

Tom
Tom K. is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-11-2011, 12:54 PM   #5
Turkeybaster115
Banned
 
Drives: 335I
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Illinois

Posts: 1,544
iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrackRat View Post
Turkeybaster continuously posts half-truths and technically incorrect oil information because he does not understand the subject matter. This false information can cost you your engine warranty and even engine damage so PLEASE read your OM so that you are an informed BMW owner and know your warranty obligations.
Please respond to my Factual observations on post #13: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=528742

You keep running away.
Turkeybaster115 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-11-2011, 12:55 PM   #6
Turkeybaster115
Banned
 
Drives: 335I
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Illinois

Posts: 1,544
iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ska325xi View Post
wow...you two need to stop this crab on telling ppl what they should or should not use.
+2
Turkeybaster115 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-11-2011, 06:37 PM   #7
ceb
NHTSA Nazi
 
Drives: 335ix
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: MD

Posts: 1,979
iTrader: (1)

It is obvious that some people try to hide behind the MM Act because they are incapable of comprehending the English language.

The MM Act does not prohibit a manufacturer from setting warranty requirements. It prohibits a manufacturer from requiring the use of their own replacement parts (or in this case fluids) in order to keep the warranty intact. A manufacturer can (and frequently does) recommend the use of a specific brand (like the Castrol on the 710 cap) but in this case BMW perfectly legally and logically, requires the use of a specific specification of oil (for our cars in the US LL-01.)

LL-01 oils are available at nearly every auto parts store so BMW is complying with the intent of the law as well.

The irrefutable fact remains that if you drive a non-M current 3 series in the US, then you need to use a LL-01 oil to keep your warranty intact. And that requirement is perfectly legal.

The way the oil is tested is actually quite immaterial. The only thing important is that the bottle says LL-01 on the back.

Once you're out of warranty you can use any swill you like.

Last edited by ceb; 05-11-2011 at 06:54 PM.
ceb is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-11-2011, 11:22 PM   #8
C.D.335xi
Private First Class
 
C.D.335xi's Avatar
 
Drives: 2014 Z4 35is
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: CDN embassies around the world

Posts: 182
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2014 Z4 35is  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socom View Post
+1
+2
__________________
2014 Z4 35is Deep Sea Blue
2009 E92 335i X-Drive 6MT - Sold
C.D.335xi is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      05-12-2011, 10:11 AM   #9
Turkeybaster115
Banned
 
Drives: 335I
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Illinois

Posts: 1,544
iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ceb View Post
It is obvious that some people try to hide behind the MM Act because they are incapable of comprehending the English language.
well here's a smart one, so let me as you some questions.

1. SO during my "warranty" peroid, you want me to use only BMW LL01 approved oil, right? So can do I have to use the one at the stealership, or is it ok for me to use German made BMW LL01 oils such as pentosin, Total, motul, lubrimoly, etc? If its ok, and logical for me to go and buy these oils, with the same LL01 approval, written on the back labels by germans, and change the oil, then is my car still "warrantied"? When I come back to the stealership for work to be done on my car, can I show the the empty bottle with the LL01 written on the back label, just like the one they are selling?

2. If the answers to the above questions are yes, then if I change my oil with say redline, royal purple, or amsoil, and 4,000 miles later I come in for repair work, and they ask me if my oil was LL01 approved, and I say yes, how would they know the oil isn't? Oh, and don't tell me, its by the color of the oil, because thats just a stupid response.
Turkeybaster115 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-12-2011, 12:34 PM   #10
ska///235i
***** noob
 
ska///235i's Avatar
 
Drives: M235i
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Boston

Posts: 9,077
iTrader: (32)

Garage List
2006 325xi  [0.00]
they are some kind of App on e90post that will auto reply to oil related topics, so dont stress out my friend...lol
ska///235i is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-12-2011, 01:00 PM   #11
Turkeybaster115
Banned
 
Drives: 335I
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Illinois

Posts: 1,544
iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ska325xi View Post
they are some kind of App on e90post that will auto reply to oil related topics, so dont stress out my friend...lol
No kiddin!
Turkeybaster115 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-12-2011, 06:17 PM   #12
ceb
NHTSA Nazi
 
Drives: 335ix
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: MD

Posts: 1,979
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 View Post
well here's a smart one, so let me as you some questions.

1. SO during my "warranty" peroid, you want me to use only BMW LL01 approved oil, right? So can do I have to use the one at the stealership, or is it ok for me to use German made BMW LL01 oils such as pentosin, Total, motul, lubrimoly, etc? If its ok, and logical for me to go and buy these oils, with the same LL01 approval, written on the back labels by germans, and change the oil, then is my car still "warrantied"? When I come back to the stealership for work to be done on my car, can I show the the empty bottle with the LL01 written on the back label, just like the one they are selling?

2. If the answers to the above questions are yes, then if I change my oil with say redline, royal purple, or amsoil, and 4,000 miles later I come in for repair work, and they ask me if my oil was LL01 approved, and I say yes, how would they know the oil isn't? Oh, and don't tell me, its by the color of the oil, because thats just a stupid response.
You may have an obligation to prove that you used approved oil. If you do your own servicing, then you can do that by keeping a journal showing dates of service, what was done and what products used. In addition, you'll want to attach receipts that show that approved parts/fluids were used.

In addition, if the dealer believes that the failure was caused by non-approved fluids/parts, then they will send samples off to get them analyzed. You can bet that their labs can tell the difference between an LL-01 oil and amSOIL or Royal Poopie.

But you knew all that already and just asked your question to yank my chain.

I didn't answer for you but for the other readers that may actually want to learn something.
ceb is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-12-2011, 07:21 PM   #13
Turkeybaster115
Banned
 
Drives: 335I
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Illinois

Posts: 1,544
iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ceb View Post
In addition, if the dealer believes that the failure was caused by non-approved fluids/parts, then they will send samples off to get them analyzed. You can bet that their labs can tell the difference between an LL-01 oil and amSOIL or Royal Poopie.
You've watched WAY too many CSI Miami shows! Its one thing to argue that through rather EXPENSIVE organic chemical analysis (e.g NMR, Gas chromatograpy, fractional distillation), one could tell one brand of oil from another, assuming of course they somehow got the manufacturer to disclose the confidential, proprietary formula. Its another thing entirely to suggest that one could do analysis to determine brand of oil once decomposed! Honestly this is the most ignorant statement I've every read on the internet. Wow, just wow.
Turkeybaster115 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-12-2011, 07:43 PM   #14
bimmertt
Lieutenant Colonel
 
bimmertt's Avatar
 
Drives: 2007 e92 335i
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Earth

Posts: 1,676
iTrader: (7)

You are not reading your own reference correctly. If you read it carefully, it mentions "...specific brand or trade name of product or service..." and also "...buy an item or service from a particular company..."


TrackRat is 100% correct.
bimmertt is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-12-2011, 08:53 PM   #15
Turkeybaster115
Banned
 
Drives: 335I
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Illinois

Posts: 1,544
iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmertt View Post
You are not reading your own reference correctly. If you read it carefully, it mentions "...specific brand or trade name of product or service..." and also "...buy an item or service from a particular company..."


TrackRat is 100% correct.
BMW North America lists the 3 LL01 oils you must use on its website: Mobil 1 0W40, Castrol 0W30, and one other piece of S**t. Err, so yes that's forcing people to buy a specific brand.
Turkeybaster115 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-12-2011, 08:54 PM   #16
ceb
NHTSA Nazi
 
Drives: 335ix
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: MD

Posts: 1,979
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 View Post
You've watched WAY too many CSI Miami shows! Its one thing to argue that through rather EXPENSIVE organic chemical analysis (e.g NMR, Gas chromatograpy, fractional distillation), one could tell one brand of oil from another, assuming of course they somehow got the manufacturer to disclose the confidential, proprietary formula. Its another thing entirely to suggest that one could do analysis to determine brand of oil once decomposed! Honestly this is the most ignorant statement I've every read on the internet. Wow, just wow.
Your ignorance is astounding.

Don't bother replying because I'll just ignore your drivel.
ceb is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-12-2011, 08:58 PM   #17
ska///235i
***** noob
 
ska///235i's Avatar
 
Drives: M235i
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Boston

Posts: 9,077
iTrader: (32)

Garage List
2006 325xi  [0.00]
how is this a sticky...lol
ska///235i is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-12-2011, 09:15 PM   #18
bimmertt
Lieutenant Colonel
 
bimmertt's Avatar
 
Drives: 2007 e92 335i
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Earth

Posts: 1,676
iTrader: (7)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 View Post
BMW North America lists the 3 LL01 oils you must use on its website: Mobil 1 0W40, Castrol 0W30, and one other piece of S**t. Err, so yes that's forcing people to buy a specific brand.
You are focusing on the wrong aspect here. BMW is not requiring a brand, but rather the LL-01 specification. If BMW required only Castrol to be used while Mobil 1, Pennzoil, and Valvoline produced equally acceptable LL-01 approved oils, that would be in violation with the act.
bimmertt is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-12-2011, 09:35 PM   #19
ceb
NHTSA Nazi
 
Drives: 335ix
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: MD

Posts: 1,979
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmertt View Post
You are focusing on the wrong aspect here. BMW is not requiring a brand, but rather the LL-01 specification. If BMW required only Castrol to be used while Mobil 1, Pennzoil, and Valvoline produced equally acceptable LL-01 approved oils, that would be in violation with the act.
Absolutely correct.
ceb is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-13-2011, 12:43 AM   #20
vincentvega222
Second Lieutenant
 
Drives: 335i
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Seattle

Posts: 267
iTrader: (3)

Lol turkeybaster.. stop please.
vincentvega222 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      06-14-2011, 11:27 AM   #21
ALL4_3SERIES
New Member
 
Drives: 2011 BMW 328XI Sedan
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Germany

Posts: 8
iTrader: (0)

Oil Question

Newbie here...Got a question for you veteran BMW owners...I am in the military stationed in Germany. I took advantage of the BMW Military Sales Program and ordered a 2011 BMW Alpine White 328xi 6 weeks ago and I take delivery at the end of the week. My question is this...I went to the German BMW dealer and asked for the BMW Oil bag and a litre of oil for my car, since I am doing a break-in trip to Berlin and wanted to have some on hand just in case. They gave me 5W-30 LL-04, BMW OEM oil, which from what I understand is a re-branded Castrol oil. Why would they do that when they know my car is U.S. Specs (asked for VIN # and my German Registration shows U.S. Specification? Is it okay for me to use if I need to top the car off during my trip? What would be the hazards of doing such a thing? Is there a better alternative for me to use for this trip? Okay so that wasn't "a question", but I have never owned a BMW before. Help anyone?
ALL4_3SERIES is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      06-14-2011, 11:54 AM   #22
roundle
EXPAT
 
Drives: 2011 328iT (US-Spec, 6MT, ZSP)
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Netherlands

Posts: 689
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ALL4_3SERIES View Post
Newbie here...Got a question for you veteran BMW owners...I am in the military stationed in Germany. I took advantage of the BMW Military Sales Program and ordered a 2011 BMW Alpine White 328xi 6 weeks ago and I take delivery at the end of the week. My question is this...I went to the German BMW dealer and asked for the BMW Oil bag and a litre of oil for my car, since I am doing a break-in trip to Berlin and wanted to have some on hand just in case. They gave me 5W-30 LL-04, BMW OEM oil, which from what I understand is a re-branded Castrol oil. Why would they do that when they know my car is U.S. Specs (asked for VIN # and my German Registration shows U.S. Specification? Is it okay for me to use if I need to top the car off during my trip? What would be the hazards of doing such a thing? Is there a better alternative for me to use for this trip? Okay so that wasn't "a question", but I have never owned a BMW before. Help anyone?
I'm in the same situation.

The LL04 is the best oil that you can use so long as you are burning low-sulfur EU gas. When you're back in the states, have the oil changed w/ BMW LL01.

Here's a pic of the oil that BMW Den Haag uses for my US-SPEC 328i:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=433503
roundle is offline   Netherlands
0
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:22 AM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST