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      07-05-2011, 01:03 PM   #45
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On the deficit: To lower it you need to get the private sector to start hiring and you need to cut federal spending. Raising taxes will lower the deficit in the short term however business will stop hiring and start cutting jobs. So taxing more wouldn't help anything and you'd be left with another way of lowering the debt. That way is to have massive spending and entitlement cuts. The tough decisions need to be made now so that they don't have to become harder in the near future.
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      07-05-2011, 01:06 PM   #46
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If you want tax revenue raised then do what even republicans want and that is to close loopholes and fraud that present themselves in the current tax code. GE made record profits last year and paid $0 in taxes. The government actually gave them billions of dollars because of their "green technology."
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      07-05-2011, 02:14 PM   #47
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If you want tax revenue raised then do what even republicans want and that is to close loopholes and fraud that present themselves in the current tax code...
By "republicans" do you mean Ronald Reagan? Because Ronald Reagan made the largest tax INCREASE in US history by eliminating the massive amounts of tax loopholes and shelters. This increased revenue by increasing the effective tax rates. Ronald Reagan did absolutely the right thing.


But for all the humping of Ronald Reagan that the current Republican Party does, they are no Ronald Reagans. Modern Republicans are nothing like this. 96% of Republican Congressmen have signed Grover Norquist's Taxpayer Protection Pledge that specifically BANS Republican Congressmen from removing the tax loopholes and shelters you want removed:


"Signing the Taxpayer Protection Pledge commits signers to oppose changes in tax deductions or credits that increase the net tax burden on Americans."

If you support getting rid of ANY tax deduction or tax credit for any corporation of private party, 96% of Republican congressmen have sworn a pledge to OPPOSE YOU.


If you want to increase revenue by removing tax loopholes and shelters, you will have to vote for Democrats or Indies who have not signed the Taxpayer Protection Pledge. The problem is voting into office a bunch of Republicans with "Tax Cut Tourette's" who have sworn to oppose you.

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      07-05-2011, 02:58 PM   #48
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I dislike the republican party a bit less than the democratic party. Neither are smart or efficient. I also do not live by the mantra "republicans good, democrats bad." Democrats are bad but so are a majority of republican congressmen. If you want cold-hard facts though, almost 50% of American households pay no income tax. If you want an increase in tax revenue go after these people. Focus on this percentage, not the 1% that is so villafied.
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      07-05-2011, 04:21 PM   #49
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If you want cold-hard facts though, almost 50% of American households pay no income tax. If you want an increase in tax revenue go after these people. Focus on this percentage, not the 1% that is so villafied.


1) I agree that SOME of the 47% of households not paying income tax should be paying income tax.

But with U6 unemployment figures in the teens, you can't get blood from that stone. You can't tax income on people with no income. Also with poverty rates for WORKING families also in the teens, you can't get blood from that stone either. You can't tax income from folks who can't afford to feed their children. With the number of retired folks also in the teens, these folks have already paid taxes on a lifetime of labor. Again, not that much blood from that stone.

These three groups make up the VAST majority of that 47% figure. You aren't going to run a country taxing the unemployed, the impoverished, and the elderly. You are misinformed to imply that we could. We've got to tax the folks who have the money (me included) because that's where the money is.


2) For the small percent left who pay no income tax, but make an OK income, I completely agree they should pay some income tax. Like they did under Clinton in the 1990's. Rolling back ALL of the Bush tax cuts would completely solve this problem.

96% of the current Republican Congress have signed a pledge that they will NEVER roll back the Bush tax cuts. So if this is really your goal, voting Republican isn't going to achieve it. These 96% of Republicans have sworn a pledge to OPPOSE YOU.

But just getting the few folks who aren't elderly, unemployed, or living in poverty and currently pay no taxes, to pay some taxes isn't going balance the budget. Personally I'm hoping the ENTIRE Bush Tax Cuts will just expire. There are plenty of Democrats and Indies who agree with that position. If you want it to happen, find one and vote for them.

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      07-05-2011, 06:29 PM   #50
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Shit man. If a majority of that 47% of Americans are that poor, we've got an even bigger problem. That means over a quarter of Americans are living in and below poverty lines.
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      07-05-2011, 07:42 PM   #51
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Their "spend thrift way", are you kidding me? Look up the deficit they ran up between '00-08. Look at the surplus they gobbled up with their policies.
Look up the definition of spendthrift. Here's a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spendthrift

For the hard of clicking: "A spendthrift (also called profligate) is someone who spends money prodigiously and who is extravagant and recklessly wasteful."
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      07-05-2011, 07:54 PM   #52
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There has also been record-breaking use of the fillibuster in the Senate, which has made even minor bills nearly impossible to pass.

But I'm sure you are going to explain to us how it is Obama's fault that the Republicans in the Senate have used the fillibuster more times since 2007 than ALL the previous Senates combined in the history of the United States!!
That the Democrats couldn't even manage to get 60 votes to bring some legislation to the floor is a sign of their incompetence. The reason Democrats didn't use it as often during the Bush presidency was that they knew they did not have the votes to make it effective. This is how politics works. Part of being the president and any other elected official is knowing how to effectively use the bully pulpit and negotiating strategy to get things done. The Democrats don't and they have trouble passing bills as a result. However, given how badly written Obamacare and Dodd-Frank are, we should all be thankful that they are incompetent.
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      07-05-2011, 07:54 PM   #53
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Look up the definition of spendthrift. Here's a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spendthrift

For the hard of clicking: "A spendthrift (also called profligate) is someone who spends money prodigiously and who is extravagant and recklessly wasteful."
My bad, thought it meant the opposite.
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      07-05-2011, 07:57 PM   #54
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...If a majority of that 47% of Americans are that poor, we've got an even bigger problem...

Good morning, time to smell the coffee. We have a massive problem in the US with income inequality that the right-wing doesn't want to acknowledge (unless it is to call them all lazy).

Nearly ONE THIRD of US households make a total of between zero and 26K a year. With an average of two people in each of these households in these statistics, TOGETHER their income is just an average of 12K-18K a year. That is 6K-9K per person in these (on average) 2 person households.

So do you still think we can run our country by tapping these folk's paychecks? The folks who make on average around 12K-18K a year? There is nothing there to tap.

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      07-05-2011, 07:59 PM   #55
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My bad, thought it meant the opposite.
Its all right. I should not have put a space between the words. I can see how "thrift" standing alone could be confusing if you did not know the expression.
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      07-05-2011, 08:12 PM   #56
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That the Democrats couldn't even manage to get 60 votes to bring some legislation to the floor is a sign of their incompetence.

So it's Obama's fault when Republican Senators vote to filibuster....

At least you guys are consistent. Blame everything on Obama no matter what.



How does it feel to have Republican Senators that are supposed to represent you, that are soooo weak and limp that Obama controls how they vote? The only way Obama could be to blame for their vote would be if he was pulling the strings on their limp puppet fingers. They should either get a spine, or take personal responsibility for their own votes. None of this "Whaaaaaa!! Obama made me filibuster!! It's not my fault. "
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      07-05-2011, 08:12 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelinIsRich08 View Post
...If a majority of that 47% of Americans are that poor, we've got an even bigger problem...

Good morning, time to smell the coffee. We have a massive problem in the US with income inequality that the right-wing doesn't want to acknowledge (unless it is to call them all lazy).

Nearly ONE THIRD of US households make a total of between zero and 26K a year. With an average of two people in each of these households in these statistics, TOGETHER their income is just an average of 12K-18K a year. That is 6K-9K per person in these (on average) 2 person households.

So do you still think we can run our country by tapping these folk's paychecks? The folks who make on average around 12K-17K a year? There is nothing there to tap.
Might have to do with the extremely broken education system. I don't know the prior statistics but I highly doubt they were this high. Teachers unions and tenures are a major factor for why our children are not getting a proper education. Teachers aren't being paid enough and it seems anyone can become one. Also, an overwhelming majority of African-Americans are receiving some sort of government handout, the number is over 80% which is frightening. Also, there are many physically able to work people who are on food stamps and welfare. Make them contribute to society in some way. Take the illegals jobs for all I care. These physically able welfare recipients should take the "jobs Americans aren't willing to do" because they have to give to receive. Otherwise they're not incentivized to work.
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      07-05-2011, 08:24 PM   #58
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I'm not going to go into all that education stuff in a budget/debt thread, but what answers do you have now for the debt?

You suggested closing corporate tax loopholes, only to be blocked by Republicans who have signed a pledge to never do that. So it's off the table.

You suggested taxing the unemployed, impovrished, and the elderly -- only to learn that poor people don't have the cash to run the country. That's off the table.

Any other ideas?




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Might have to do with the extremely broken education system. I don't know the prior statistics but I highly doubt they were this high. .......
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      07-05-2011, 08:25 PM   #59
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Stop wasting money paying the poor.. There's an idea
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      07-05-2011, 09:44 PM   #60
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I'm not going to go into all that education stuff in a budget/debt thread, but what answers do you have now for the debt?

You suggested closing corporate tax loopholes, only to be blocked by Republicans who have signed a pledge to never do that. So it's off the table.

You suggested taxing the unemployed, impovrished, and the elderly -- only to learn that poor people don't have the cash to run the country. That's off the table.

Any other ideas?




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Might have to do with the extremely broken education system. I don't know the prior statistics but I highly doubt they were this high. .......
What do you mean the repubs are against closing loopholes? That seems to be the only thing they and the democrats seem to agree on.
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      07-05-2011, 10:42 PM   #61
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What do you mean the repubs are against closing loopholes? That seems to be the only thing they and the democrats seem to agree on.
96% of Republican Congressmen have signed Grover Norquist's Taxpayer Protection Pledge that specifically BANS Republicans from removing tax loopholes and shelters. From Norquist's own website:

"Signing the Taxpayer Protection Pledge commits signers to oppose changes in tax deductions or credits that increase the net tax burden on Americans."

96% of Republican congressmen have sworn a pledge to OPPOSE closing tax loopholes.
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      07-06-2011, 05:55 PM   #62
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96% of Republican Congressmen have signed Grover Norquist's Taxpayer Protection Pledge that specifically BANS Republicans from removing tax loopholes and shelters. From Norquist's own website:

"Signing the Taxpayer Protection Pledge commits signers to oppose changes in tax deductions or credits that increase the net tax burden on Americans."

96% of Republican congressmen have sworn a pledge to OPPOSE closing tax loopholes.
Not quite. The key word there is "net." This means that they can't eliminate loopholes that increase people's tax burdens. But, they could eliminate loopholes if they also lower the overall tax rate. That could result in no net change, while still achieving tax reform.
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      07-06-2011, 05:58 PM   #63
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So it's Obama's fault when Republican Senators vote to filibuster....

At least you guys are consistent. Blame everything on Obama no matter what.

How does it feel to have Republican Senators that are supposed to represent you, that are soooo weak and limp that Obama controls how they vote? The only way Obama could be to blame for their vote would be if he was pulling the strings on their limp puppet fingers. They should either get a spine, or take personal responsibility for their own votes. None of this "Whaaaaaa!! Obama made me filibuster!! It's not my fault. "
What is Obama's fault is his inability to get enough votes to pass legislation. Clinton did not have this problem. He was able to make deals with Republicans to pass legislation. A good president can make deals with the other party to pass key legislation. Obama is unable to do this. So through basic logic, he is not a good president.
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      07-06-2011, 06:05 PM   #64
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Not quite. The key word there is "net." This means that they can't eliminate loopholes that increase people's tax burdens. But, they could eliminate loopholes if they also lower the overall tax rate. That could result in no net change, while still achieving tax reform.
You are jumping in late on the discussion without knowing what the discussion is about. The specific statement I was responding to was this:

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If you want tax revenue raised then do what even republicans want and that is to close loopholes ....

I told AngelinIsRich that Republicans don't agree with his plan to RAISE TAX REVENUE by closing tax loopholes.

What you have said just reinforces my point, and backs me up. The only way Republicans will agree to changes in the tax code is if they are revenue neutral, just like you said. This backs up the point I was making, which is Republicans OPPOSE AngelinIsRich's plan to RAISE TAX REVENUE by closing tax loopholes. The topic is reducing the debt. You cannot reduce the debt by getting rid of tax loopholes if you give the same company a tax rate reduction for the same amount as the tax loophole.

It won't help the debt a single bit, it is just a shell game shifting the same cash around, out of a tax loophole, and into a tax rate decrease. We need REAL tax reform, not shell games.

But thanks for affirming the point I was making.

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      07-06-2011, 06:27 PM   #65
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What is Obama's fault is his inability to get enough votes to pass legislation. Clinton did not have this problem. He was able to make deals with Republicans to pass legislation. A good president can make deals with the other party to pass key legislation. Obama is unable to do this. So through basic logic, he is not a good president.
Oh, OK. You want to play games.

So let's apply that same principle to John "Boner" and the current Republican House.

What Jobs Bill has "The Boner" and the Republican House successfully negotiated to pass through the Senate with his Senate colleagues? Nothing. Nada. Zippo.

What Abortion Bill has The Boner and the Republicans successfully negotiated to pass through the Senate with his Senate colleagues? Nothing. Nada. Zippo.

I can continue on and on and on, since The Boner and the Republican House has been a complete and utter FAILURE according to your standard, with less than 15% of House legislation actually getting passed by the Senate. There has been absolutely NO legislation of any merit. That 15% is mostly silly unsubstantial stuff, like bills to name buildings or declare official days of recognition. Like official Pig-Humping Day in Po-Dunk Nowhere's-ville.

Compare the Republican House's success rates in leading bills through Congress with Obama's:

Obama got the largest Health Care reform passed in modern history. Clinton tried and couldn't pull off this legislation, and you just said Clinton was the guy who had the great skills!!

Obama got Don't Ask, Don't Tell reversal legislation passed, a major historic piece of legislation. Clinton (the guy you said had great skills) was the guy who passed this into law, because he couldn't make as good a deal as Obama made! Clinton didn't want any ban on gays, but he lost and had to sign Don't Ask Don't Tell to avoid a Republican out-right ban on gays in the military. Again, Obama passed the law Clinton couldn't!

Obama got his Economic Stimulus passed, another major piece of legislation.

Obama got the Hate Crime bill passed to expand federal definition to include gender, sexual orientation, gender identity and disability.

etc...


And I KNOW you guys hate all this stuff. It all makes you guys twitch uncontrollably. It makes you thrash around on the ground and shout SOCIALIST!!! at the top of your lungs until your tongues bleed. So based on your own definition, Obama's __The Man__ to get these passed.



Clearly the failed politician who can't get anything passed through the Senate via negotiation is John "Boner" and the Republicans. (According to your own made-up standard.) Where's the Jobs Bill, Boner???


Thanks for that handy definition of failure for use against John Boner and the Republicans.



I'm awaiting your name-calling and subject-changing responses with bated-breath.

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      07-07-2011, 07:59 PM   #66
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Oh, OK. You want to play games.

So let's apply that same principle to John "Boner" and the current Republican House.

What Jobs Bill has "The Boner" and the Republican House successfully negotiated to pass through the Senate with his Senate colleagues? Nothing. Nada. Zippo.

What Abortion Bill has The Boner and the Republicans successfully negotiated to pass through the Senate with his Senate colleagues? Nothing. Nada. Zippo.

I can continue on and on and on, since The Boner and the Republican House has been a complete and utter FAILURE according to your standard, with less than 15% of House legislation actually getting passed by the Senate. There has been absolutely NO legislation of any merit. That 15% is mostly silly unsubstantial stuff, like bills to name buildings or declare official days of recognition. Like official Pig-Humping Day in Po-Dunk Nowhere's-ville.
You are assuming I think Mr. Boehner is a good leader. I do not. But then, I am not about to vote for him for president either. I do happen to agree with some of his positions on the debt limit. That is, I think it would be great to cut the federal budget and using the debt limit as a bargaining chip is a good way to accomplish this.

Also, you continue to point fingers at republican incompetence instead of dealing with Obama's or the debt limit discussions. Saying someone else is just as stupid does not make your man seem smarter. If anything it looks to me like you are conceding the point that Obama is as ineffective a leader of Mr. Boehner.

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Compare the Republican House's success rates in leading bills through Congress with Obama's:

Obama got the largest Health Care reform passed in modern history. Clinton tried and couldn't pull off this legislation, and you just said Clinton was the guy who had the great skills!!

Obama got Don't Ask, Don't Tell reversal legislation passed, a major historic piece of legislation. Clinton (the guy you said had great skills) was the guy who passed this into law, because he couldn't make as good a deal as Obama made! Clinton didn't want any ban on gays, but he lost and had to sign Don't Ask Don't Tell to avoid a Republican out-right ban on gays in the military. Again, Obama passed the law Clinton couldn't!

Obama got his Economic Stimulus passed, another major piece of legislation.

Obama got the Hate Crime bill passed to expand federal definition to include gender, sexual orientation, gender identity and disability.

etc...
There are huge differences between what Clinton tried to pass in his health care reform bill and what Obama actually passed. Clinton wanted to pass universal health care, like what Europe and Canada have. Obama's bill simply requires you to buy insurance and gives incentives to businesses to cut your health care (in that the tax penalty is a lot less money than the cost of health care annually).

Here are the Wikis:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinton...e_plan_of_1993
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_..._United_States

Also, passing economic stimulus is not really that impressive. Hell Bush passed two different forms of it. Not that either his or Obama's were at all effective, we are still at 9% unemployment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economi...us_Act_of_2008
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trouble...Relief_Program

What about DADT? Oh wait, its not effective until the President, the Secretary of Defense, and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff certify that repeal will not harm military readiness, followed by a 60-day waiting period. It has taken an order from the judiciary to keep the military from enforcing it. What a victory! Don't believe me? Read the wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_ask,_don%27t_tell

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And I KNOW you guys hate all this stuff. It all makes you guys twitch uncontrollably. It makes you thrash around on the ground and shout SOCIALIST!!! at the top of your lungs until your tongues bleed. So based on your own definition, Obama's __The Man__ to get these passed.

Clearly the failed politician who can't get anything passed through the Senate via negotiation is John "Boner" and the Republicans. (According to your own made-up standard.) Where's the Jobs Bill, Boner???

Thanks for that handy definition of failure for use against John Boner and the Republicans.

I'm awaiting your name-calling and subject-changing responses with bated-breath.
Again, I don't think Boehner is any better a leader than Obama. But then, as I said above, I am not about to vote for him for president in 2012 either. My statement was that Obama is a bad leader and a bad president. I stand by it. I never claimed Boehner is a good speaker of the house. Simply disliking one particular Democrat does not make me a promoter of some random Republican straw man you decide to choose. It also does not make Obama any better a president or leader.
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