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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Real Gruppe M 335i Intake Results



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      05-23-2007, 12:09 PM   #1
merritt
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Real Gruppe M 335i Intake Results

I am tired of seeing no-name badge EBay special air intakes. While working at AEM in the R&D department developing air intakes, among other things, I found the EBay intakes to be rather insulting. I still find them insulting although I now work for another company (I still deal with plenty of knock off designs popping up). The blatant cheap knock offs make me ill... on that note I recently had the opportunity to test out the real Gruppe M 335i carbon fiber air intake.

I went to Technik Engineering to get a stock baseline dyno without the intake, then immediate dyno results with the intake. The dyno at Technik was a Dynojet and SAE correction was used. Here is the dyno chart of the best stock run (blue) versus the one of the runs with the intake installed (red):

To better view the plot in a larger size go here:
http://www.technikpower.com/temp/tei...m_335_dyno.gif

Bitch about the price all you want. You have now seen that it does offer better flow than stock and thus improves performance. It is also quite esthetically pleasing.

If anyone wants to see any other test results then let me know. I will try and get it done.
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      05-23-2007, 12:14 PM   #2
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what was the point of this thread? to bitch about knockoffs?

No one is aruging the better performance Gruppe M offers over stock, we know it does do something after ksfrogman's dyno runs, so again, what is it that you're going on and on about?

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Originally Posted by merritt View Post
Bitch about the price all you want. You have now seen that it does offer better flow than stock and thus improves performance. It is also quite esthetically pleasing.

If anyone wants to see any other test results then let me know. I will try and get it done.
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      05-23-2007, 12:25 PM   #3
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I will still take a replica. Paying $1800 for an intake that makes 7whp and 4lb tq is not just getting ripped off but its just dumb. I can Understand an intake for a Ferrari costing $3400 but they will only sell like 10 per year. There are going to be thousands of 335 / 535's out there and many more intakes will be sold. Eventually someone will come out with a cheaper solution that gives you the same gains. Supersprint's exhaust from the down pipes back was like $5k when it came out. I have yet to see a 335 with that exhaust on.
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      05-23-2007, 12:29 PM   #4
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you work for AEM and you are buying a gruppe m???? this only means one thing....

post pics of the 335 gruppe m.
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      05-23-2007, 12:34 PM   #5
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mmm... wonder what happens when you add a full exhaust...
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      05-23-2007, 12:37 PM   #6
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Thanks for doing this.
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      05-23-2007, 01:11 PM   #7
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I have noticed a consistent trend... people don't generally read posts thoroughly. Again I said that I used to work at AEM and that I currently work for another company (Turbonetics). I don't work at AEM anymore. I am not limited to their product lineup. They also don't want to touch the 335i so there will never be an AEM 335i intake.

I had the opportunity to test the Gruppe M intake so I thought I would share the results. I had seen multiple posts requesting some data to prove that there can be power gained from an aftermarket intake on the 335i. There have also been posts saying that some intakes can decrease power, which is certainly possible.

As for bitching about knockoffs why should I not be allowed to do so? If your career and well being was to design new products to peform at certain levels you would be bitter when people rip it off without putting the time or money into the development. Manufactering methods, quality control, and engineering time add cost to products. When you take out those elements you can offer something at much less than those companies that have those systems in place. When people buy the cheap no name stuff it just hurts the companies that are legitimate. I am an engineer. This is how I make my living. I have the right to defend what I do.
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      05-23-2007, 01:17 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by merritt View Post
I have noticed a consistent trend... people don't generally read posts thoroughly. Again I said that I used to work at AEM and that I currently work for another company (Turbonetics). I don't work at AEM anymore. I am not limited to their product lineup. They also don't want to touch the 335i so there will never be an AEM 335i intake.

I had the opportunity to test the Gruppe M intake so I thought I would share the results. I had seen multiple posts requesting some data to prove that there can be power gained from an aftermarket intake on the 335i. There have also been posts saying that some intakes can decrease power, which is certainly possible.

As for bitching about knockoffs why should I not be allowed to do so? If your career and well being was to design new products to peform at certain levels you would be bitter when people rip it off without putting the time or money into the development. Manufactering methods, quality control, and engineering time add cost to products. When you take out those elements you can offer something at much less than those companies that have those systems in place. When people buy the cheap no name stuff it just hurts the companies that are legitimate. I am an engineer. This is how I make my living. I have the right to defend what I do.
o my bad. i still didnt read it thorughly.
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      05-23-2007, 01:19 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ksfrogman View Post
Thanks for doing this.
+1, thanks for sharing.
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      05-23-2007, 01:46 PM   #10
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Can you give us some more info on the driving aspect? Hows the throttle response? what good/bads did you see?
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      05-23-2007, 02:12 PM   #11
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Seems like in bottom end hp/tq is basicly the same, probably a 1-2 hp/tq raise in the curve.

Around 4.5k and up you get around a 4-7 hp raise and 3-4 tq raise.

But around 6.5-7k you got 15 hp and 12 tq.

Now what im interested in learning is if was the filters that gave the hp/tq increase and not the actual CAI. Going from cotton / foam vs a paper filter is a lot less restrictive.

Its not bad for a basic bolt on.

Maybe if you tuned it out you could get a little bit more out of it. And smoothen out those curves, because thats just really bouncy.

Thats $120 per hp if you are looking at the 15 hp gain for 500 rpms.
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      05-23-2007, 02:23 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ksfrogman View Post
Thanks for doing this.
+1

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCal335i View Post
I will still take a replica. Paying $1800 for an intake that makes 7whp and 4lb tq is not just getting ripped off but its just dumb. I can Understand an intake for a Ferrari costing $3400 but they will only sell like 10 per year. There are going to be thousands of 335 / 535's out there and many more intakes will be sold. Eventually someone will come out with a cheaper solution that gives you the same gains. Supersprint's exhaust from the down pipes back was like $5k when it came out. I have yet to see a 335 with that exhaust on.
I wouldnt go as far as "dumb" but $1800 for 7 Hp, nice as it may be, doesn't seem like money well spent. I understand that u are also pleased with the sound and looks of it. however, its still spending about $250-260 per each HP increase...

Just for a comparison: Piggyback unit, such as AA or Vishnu, is est. $1300 for roughly 50+ hp gain. Thats abou $26 for each Hp.

I am currently having a hard time try to justify an exhaust system purchase. I will be looking to spend about $2- 2.5 k for pretty minimal gain ( cat back, no res. and no 2nd cat)... if i get somewhere between $50- $80 per HP gained, i will be happy.

just my 2 cents.
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      05-23-2007, 02:29 PM   #13
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Unfortunately one dyno run is not going to convince me that this intake made the difference in power. We have seen differences just as big in back to back dyno runs.
http://www.autospies.com/news/2007-B...a-Ringer-8674/
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      05-23-2007, 02:54 PM   #14
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Quote:
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Unfortunately one dyno run is not going to convince me that this intake made the difference in power. We have seen differences just as big in back to back dyno runs.
http://www.autospies.com/news/2007-B...a-Ringer-8674/
Just spraying the intercooler with cool water BEFORE the dyno can result in 10-15 hp gain... it got me extra 12.9 hp on my dyno (third run)

But I am sure the intake will increase your HP /TQ, minimal as it may be.
Plus I heard it sounds nice...
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      05-23-2007, 03:06 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by merritt View Post
I have noticed a consistent trend... people don't generally read posts thoroughly. Again I said that I used to work at AEM and that I currently work for another company (Turbonetics). I don't work at AEM anymore. I am not limited to their product lineup. They also don't want to touch the 335i so there will never be an AEM 335i intake.

I had the opportunity to test the Gruppe M intake so I thought I would share the results. I had seen multiple posts requesting some data to prove that there can be power gained from an aftermarket intake on the 335i. There have also been posts saying that some intakes can decrease power, which is certainly possible.

As for bitching about knockoffs why should I not be allowed to do so? If your career and well being was to design new products to peform at certain levels you would be bitter when people rip it off without putting the time or money into the development. Manufactering methods, quality control, and engineering time add cost to products. When you take out those elements you can offer something at much less than those companies that have those systems in place. When people buy the cheap no name stuff it just hurts the companies that are legitimate. I am an engineer. This is how I make my living. I have the right to defend what I do.
I have to agree with you on this one but unfortunately with the price difference of 600-700$ thats big for most of us. Gruppe M would make more money if they sold it at a lower rate, and why wouldnt they make enough money if everyone would want one? Sometimes I think the reason why so many companies charge so much is because they think that BMW owners will have a fat pocket. Also, for 1000$ gruppe m intake, it only gains about 7-15hp which is very small and not even noticable but many people buy one for the sound IMO.
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      05-23-2007, 03:25 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by merritt View Post
I have noticed a consistent trend... people don't generally read posts thoroughly. Again I said that I used to work at AEM and that I currently work for another company (Turbonetics). I don't work at AEM anymore. I am not limited to their product lineup. They also don't want to touch the 335i so there will never be an AEM 335i intake.

I had the opportunity to test the Gruppe M intake so I thought I would share the results. I had seen multiple posts requesting some data to prove that there can be power gained from an aftermarket intake on the 335i. There have also been posts saying that some intakes can decrease power, which is certainly possible.

As for bitching about knockoffs why should I not be allowed to do so? If your career and well being was to design new products to peform at certain levels you would be bitter when people rip it off without putting the time or money into the development. Manufactering methods, quality control, and engineering time add cost to products. When you take out those elements you can offer something at much less than those companies that have those systems in place. When people buy the cheap no name stuff it just hurts the companies that are legitimate. I am an engineer. This is how I make my living. I have the right to defend what I do.

I understand what you are saying being an engineer and a manufacturer myself, I just think they deserve to be ripped off and duplicated if they are charging $1800 for an intake system for a mass production car. An entire FMIC upgrade should be around that price, not an intake.
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      05-23-2007, 03:38 PM   #17
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+1

I'm sure there are R&D involved when designing an intake, but for that money, you can buy a procede or an exhaust system. I don't think that price point is going to work with the 335 twin turbos.

It works with the 325/330 crowd, because we know that there's not too much power that can be extracted from our naturally aspirated engines, so Gruppe M can bend us over for 6hp 7tq gain, that gain, to us, is pretty nice for NA engines.
Quote:
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I understand what you are saying being an engineer and a manufacturer myself, I just think they deserve to be ripped off and duplicated if they are charging $1800 for an intake system for a mass production car. An entire FMIC upgrade should be around that price, not an intake.
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      05-23-2007, 03:44 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlito12 View Post
Just spraying the intercooler with cool water BEFORE the dyno can result in 10-15 hp gain... it got me extra 12.9 hp on my dyno (third run)

But I am sure the intake will increase your HP /TQ, minimal as it may be.
Plus I heard it sounds nice...
It would just be nice to see some more dyno runs to see if it consistantly makes more power. However installing a less restrictive exhaust would really compliment the intake

Now cooling the IC with water will definitely bump your power. I know some people that use CO2 (-60F) and get a serious power bump 30-50hp but that may be a little dangerous without a proper fuel system to keep things from overheating.
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      05-23-2007, 05:05 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Dirt View Post
It would just be nice to see some more dyno runs to see if it consistantly makes more power. However installing a less restrictive exhaust would really compliment the intake

Now cooling the IC with water will definitely bump your power. I know some people that use CO2 (-60F) and get a serious power bump 30-50hp but that may be a little dangerous without a proper fuel system to keep things from overheating.
Is there an IC mister system available yet for the 335? I'm sure there's gotta be a couple DIY'er out there tinkering with this as we speak.
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      05-23-2007, 05:30 PM   #20
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I can't wait to take delivery of my 335 because i love trying to make my own intakes. It's going to be interesting to see why this intake is so expensive.
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      05-23-2007, 05:44 PM   #21
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I can't wait to take delivery of my 335 because i love trying to make my own intakes. It's going to be interesting to see why this intake is so expensive.
Its a bit more complex than other intakes. It has 3 seperate pipes going into the intake box.
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      05-23-2007, 06:00 PM   #22
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As a fellow designer, I understand what you are saying. The gruppeM is overpriced, but that being said, it is what it is. I dont think its worth even 900, but its a japanese part, and japanese stuff in low production is very expensive. People it seems are getting cheaper and cheaper, and it really pushes the quality of all aftermarket stuff down.

How does the GruppeM sound on the 335? Can you hear the turbos?
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