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      07-06-2011, 12:37 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by gIzzE View Post
Well the auto works so much better than the manual in diesel guise imho, 4 pot or 6 pot makes fuck all difference to the gearbox choice.

It is all just personal opinion and that is why both engines and gearboxes are available.




Why don't compare the X1 to the 120d or the 320d?? I don't get your logic??
4 pot auto box is poor and cant even be remapped...

X1 is slower than a 118d let alone a 120D by quite a bit too

Last edited by Fx1; 07-06-2011 at 12:55 PM.
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      07-06-2011, 12:44 PM   #46
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I drive mine on the motorway all the time and it is perfect, don't knock it until you have driven it
+1 there is a surprising amount of torque at motorway speeds, even in 6th
you even get good mpg
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      07-06-2011, 01:05 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Fx1 View Post
4 pot auto box is poor and cant even be remapped...

X1 is slower than a 118d let along a 120D buy quite a bit too
Really?? Wow my last 57 plate 320d auto must have been an exception, same with the 163bhp 120d auto, and the 123d auto.

Speed has got nothing to do with it mate, that was not the point.

The point was driving a manual petrol is nicer for me than any diesel.

I have owned enough BMWs in manual and auto guise from little 2 litre diesels through the the big 35d's and then the same from 318ti through to 335i's and M3s to come to the conclusion that for me a manual diesel is bought for one reason and one reason only, to save some money at the pump or on the purchase price.

There is something about holding a petrol car in third that you just can't get with a diesel, mainly cause you are swapping cogs far more on bends etc.

I used to think the same as you, but then when I started to get back into petrols after a dozen odd diesels I realised that power is not everything, and certainly not the thing to hold my attention in a car.

535d, nice car but boring.
335i, even nice car but still pretty boring.
330i, so much more fun even though lacking in power compared with the above.

So bought another M3, slower than the mapped 335i by some margin, but better in every other respect.

But again, just my opinion and something that took me 15 years to work out and I know that many will not agree. Fuck me, we still have people thinking Audis are good cars, that says it all!!
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      07-06-2011, 01:39 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by gIzzE View Post
Really?? Wow my last 57 plate 320d auto must have been an exception, same with the 163bhp 120d auto, and the 123d auto.

Speed has got nothing to do with it mate, that was not the point.

The point was driving a manual petrol is nicer for me than any diesel.

I have owned enough BMWs in manual and auto guise from little 2 litre diesels through the the big 35d's and then the same from 318ti through to 335i's and M3s to come to the conclusion that for me a manual diesel is bought for one reason and one reason only, to save some money at the pump or on the purchase price.

There is something about holding a petrol car in third that you just can't get with a diesel, mainly cause you are swapping cogs far more on bends etc.

I used to think the same as you, but then when I started to get back into petrols after a dozen odd diesels I realised that power is not everything, and certainly not the thing to hold my attention in a car.

535d, nice car but boring.
335i, even nice car but still pretty boring.
330i, so much more fun even though lacking in power compared with the above.

So bought another M3, slower than the mapped 335i by some margin, but better in every other respect.

But again, just my opinion and something that took me 15 years to work out and I know that many will not agree. Fuck me, we still have people thinking Audis are good cars, that says it all!!
Id like to see any 318i or 320i beat any 320D in 3rd gear for sheer driving fun, im sorry but petrol cars of this size engine have one advantage over a diesel and thats first gear... The torque generated is something else and i have had 2 or 3 petrol loaners and they were rubbish... to the point that when i got my car back i thanked my lucky stars i didnt go for the "Cheaper" petrol.

Your assumptions are incorrect.. a Diesel is more expensive than a petrol.. Full stop. Only the MPG is better on diesel.

sadly 15 years experience in a car is now irrelevant since in the last 5 years so much has changed. Diesels especially are in a different league to what they used to be. even going back to 2006 a 320d only had the power of todays 118d...

I am also a little confused how adding twin turbos to a 330i makes a 335i boring?

Also this is about BMW 4 pot petrol engines dont bring 6 pot petrol performance engines into this because lets face it the 4 pot petrol doesnt behave at all like a 6 pot petrol..
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      07-06-2011, 02:59 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Fx1 View Post
Id like to see any 318i or 320i beat any 320D in 3rd gear for sheer driving fun, im sorry but petrol cars of this size engine have one advantage over a diesel and thats first gear... The torque generated is something else and i have had 2 or 3 petrol loaners and they were rubbish... to the point that when i got my car back i thanked my lucky stars i didnt go for the "Cheaper" petrol.
A little 4 pot petrol being held in 3rd gear from 30mph through to 75mph screaming its nuts off is what it is all about.
Torque is nothing, it is simply something you multiply with the RPM to get BHP, no more than that.
Some like the shove of torque, where as others will give that up for more revs. Horses for courses.

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Originally Posted by Fx1 View Post
Your assumptions are incorrect.. a Diesel is more expensive than a petrol.. Full stop. Only the MPG is better on diesel.
I was saying that for me the only reason I would choose a diesel manual is to save money, given the choice I would choose an auto every time.
Also, if MPG and BIK tax, and road tax were the same for a petrol versus the diesel equivilent I would go petrol every time. I just prefer the sound and the delivery of it.
I went with a manual diesel as it was a lot cheaper each month, no other reason.
I also went with the 18d this time as for the sort of car it is I may as well, going 20d would add little, and going 23d is just more of the same with an even worse gear ratio set up.
If it was my 'fun' car and they offered a nice straight six petrol then that is a different matter, but for the job it does the sDrive 18d in manual was the perfect option, if I was buying new I would have had the 20d effcient dynamics and saved even more money. Hey ho.

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Originally Posted by Fx1 View Post
sadly 15 years experience in a car is now irrelevant since in the last 5 years so much has changed. Diesels especially are in a different league to what they used to be. even going back to 2006 a 320d only had the power of todays 118d...
I think it is far more relevant now than ever.
Back in 1995 when I was looking for my first proper car I was looking at Audi A4 and BMW 318's.
Back then the diesel was giving 134bhp on the BMW and 110bhp on the Audi, while the petrols were offering 118bhp for the BMW and only 97bhp for the Audi, and the diesel was cheaper.
Also the petrols were averaging 25mpg for both where as the BMW was offering 44mpg and the Audi 49mpg.
That is when a diesel made the most sense.
Diesels have come on loads since then but I think we forget that the petrols have too.
Being realistic most of the diesels will get around 40-45mpg these days with DPF's, turbos that are boosted to incredible pressures and the same with fuel pressures to keep up.
Take the 4 pot petrols, they will average 35-40mpg doing the same, that is pretty impressive, even more impressive is some of the bigger petrols compared with the bigger diesels. I got more from the 272bhp 330i than I have ever managed from the 330d (the older 231bhp unit) and around 35% more than I got from my 535d.

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Originally Posted by Fx1 View Post
I am also a little confused how adding twin turbos to a 330i makes a 335i boring?
And I think this is the point.
I don't think you like diesels as such, I think you prefer forced induction cars, as so many people do, and I prefer a NA car, not at first, but after living with them for a while the NA cars get better and better, where as the FI cars I get more and more used to, there is nothing really to learn.

Take the 335i vs my SMG M3, the 335i was tuned and would do the sprint to 60mph in 4.7 seconds dead every time, had a couple of runs where it sneaked into the 4.5 second time, using the same AP22 Race Tech Timing Meter the M3 would do it in 5.1 seconds, couple at 5 seconds dead.
So, a fair bit of difference time wise where people pay thousands to knock .2 of a second of their times.

But take them out on the road, with the 335i you would go down the road, brake into a corner drop it down a gear and as you came out press the gas and you were off, didn't matter too much what gear you were in and what the rev range was, the power was pretty much there from 1500rpm, it just shoved you down the road and into the next corner. All very quick but no real drama and pretty relaxed.

Do that same bit of road in the M3 and you have to really think about it, you have to get the gearing right and you have to make sure you are also in the sweet spot of the rev range, so you go into the corner and brake hard as you need to leave it later to keep up with the 335i, and as you come round the corner you drop it down 2 gears, and then nail it as you are coming out, you feel the rear tyres get traction and hear them chirp, the revs are at 4500rpm and it is perfect, you watch the revs climd to 5500 and the engine starts to sing, the whole car feels lighter and more nimble on its feet and by the time you get to 6500rpm the engine is screaming, you then hit 7500rpm and it sounds like it is going to explode, you whack it into 4th and it hits 4500rpm again and the car is feeling more and more agile, you hit 5500rpm, then 6500rpm then 7000rpm but you have to brake hard as the next corner is hear so you do and you drop it back to 2nd as you come round, and as you come out of the other side you are back at 4500rpm and it starts all over again.
It is rewarding, if you had chosen 3rd as many do there is no power there, you have fucked up, but you got it right, the power was there and for that you get a great sense of satisfaction, you did something other than just press the throttle.

So, for me, turbos are what take the fun out of a car. I love them on my every day motorway mile munchers and as someone who did 46k miles last year their downsides can also be what makes them good, but fun and reward is not something I think they add to a car.

911 Turbo vs C2s? C2s every time.

335i vs 330i? 330i every time.

BMW M5 vs Audi RS6? M5 every time.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Fx1 View Post
Also this is about BMW 4 pot petrol engines dont bring 6 pot petrol performance engines into this because lets face it the 4 pot petrol doesnt behave at all like a 6 pot petrol..
And that is why when BMW bring out a new M3 and all the mags review it against the previous M3's the old E30 still comes out as most fun.



All I am saying is there is no right or wrong, it is all down to what you prefer, it really is that simple.
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      07-06-2011, 03:46 PM   #50
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      07-06-2011, 04:05 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gIzzE View Post
A little 4 pot petrol being held in 3rd gear from 30mph through to 75mph screaming its nuts off is what it is all about.
Torque is nothing, it is simply something you multiply with the RPM to get BHP, no more than that.
Some like the shove of torque, where as others will give that up for more revs. Horses for courses.



I was saying that for me the only reason I would choose a diesel manual is to save money, given the choice I would choose an auto every time.
Also, if MPG and BIK tax, and road tax were the same for a petrol versus the diesel equivilent I would go petrol every time. I just prefer the sound and the delivery of it.
I went with a manual diesel as it was a lot cheaper each month, no other reason.
I also went with the 18d this time as for the sort of car it is I may as well, going 20d would add little, and going 23d is just more of the same with an even worse gear ratio set up.
If it was my 'fun' car and they offered a nice straight six petrol then that is a different matter, but for the job it does the sDrive 18d in manual was the perfect option, if I was buying new I would have had the 20d effcient dynamics and saved even more money. Hey ho.



I think it is far more relevant now than ever.
Back in 1995 when I was looking for my first proper car I was looking at Audi A4 and BMW 318's.
Back then the diesel was giving 134bhp on the BMW and 110bhp on the Audi, while the petrols were offering 118bhp for the BMW and only 97bhp for the Audi, and the diesel was cheaper.
Also the petrols were averaging 25mpg for both where as the BMW was offering 44mpg and the Audi 49mpg.
That is when a diesel made the most sense.
Diesels have come on loads since then but I think we forget that the petrols have too.
Being realistic most of the diesels will get around 40-45mpg these days with DPF's, turbos that are boosted to incredible pressures and the same with fuel pressures to keep up.
Take the 4 pot petrols, they will average 35-40mpg doing the same, that is pretty impressive, even more impressive is some of the bigger petrols compared with the bigger diesels. I got more from the 272bhp 330i than I have ever managed from the 330d (the older 231bhp unit) and around 35% more than I got from my 535d.



And I think this is the point.
I don't think you like diesels as such, I think you prefer forced induction cars, as so many people do, and I prefer a NA car, not at first, but after living with them for a while the NA cars get better and better, where as the FI cars I get more and more used to, there is nothing really to learn.

Take the 335i vs my SMG M3, the 335i was tuned and would do the sprint to 60mph in 4.7 seconds dead every time, had a couple of runs where it sneaked into the 4.5 second time, using the same AP22 Race Tech Timing Meter the M3 would do it in 5.1 seconds, couple at 5 seconds dead.
So, a fair bit of difference time wise where people pay thousands to knock .2 of a second of their times.

But take them out on the road, with the 335i you would go down the road, brake into a corner drop it down a gear and as you came out press the gas and you were off, didn't matter too much what gear you were in and what the rev range was, the power was pretty much there from 1500rpm, it just shoved you down the road and into the next corner. All very quick but no real drama and pretty relaxed.

Do that same bit of road in the M3 and you have to really think about it, you have to get the gearing right and you have to make sure you are also in the sweet spot of the rev range, so you go into the corner and brake hard as you need to leave it later to keep up with the 335i, and as you come round the corner you drop it down 2 gears, and then nail it as you are coming out, you feel the rear tyres get traction and hear them chirp, the revs are at 4500rpm and it is perfect, you watch the revs climd to 5500 and the engine starts to sing, the whole car feels lighter and more nimble on its feet and by the time you get to 6500rpm the engine is screaming, you then hit 7500rpm and it sounds like it is going to explode, you whack it into 4th and it hits 4500rpm again and the car is feeling more and more agile, you hit 5500rpm, then 6500rpm then 7000rpm but you have to brake hard as the next corner is hear so you do and you drop it back to 2nd as you come round, and as you come out of the other side you are back at 4500rpm and it starts all over again.
It is rewarding, if you had chosen 3rd as many do there is no power there, you have fucked up, but you got it right, the power was there and for that you get a great sense of satisfaction, you did something other than just press the throttle.

So, for me, turbos are what take the fun out of a car. I love them on my every day motorway mile munchers and as someone who did 46k miles last year their downsides can also be what makes them good, but fun and reward is not something I think they add to a car.

911 Turbo vs C2s? C2s every time.

335i vs 330i? 330i every time.

BMW M5 vs Audi RS6? M5 every time.






And that is why when BMW bring out a new M3 and all the mags review it against the previous M3's the old E30 still comes out as most fun.



All I am saying is there is no right or wrong, it is all down to what you prefer, it really is that simple.
I understand where you are coming from now...

Sounds like what you like is driving a car around a track which makes life completely different.

on one hand you say the gearing is flawed in a Diesel but then you say that you like changing down in the M3 in corners... But then say the 335i is boring because you dont need to change gear but say you like not changing gears...

Lol this all seems a little confusing but its hardly surprising since above you have spoken about every engine bmw make even as far back as 1995 including both FI and NA...

Also the comment about E30 being the most fun i think is wrong. if you were driving in a E30 back when they were in production its the fond memories that keep the idea fun.. not actually the car.

If i drove an E30 i would think its shit. times have moved on..

I will be testing a Z4 3.0i soon 258bhp so i will soon see the differences between the NA and the 335i engine..

Last edited by Fx1; 07-06-2011 at 04:21 PM.
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      07-06-2011, 04:13 PM   #52
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I hate it when you sit on the fence Gizze.
Problem with sitting on the fence is when you slip!!

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      07-06-2011, 04:26 PM   #53
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on one hand you say the gearing is flawed in a Diesel but then you say that you like changing down in the M3 in corners... But then say the 335i is boring because you dont need to change gear but say you like not changing gears....
OK, in simple terms.

If I am compromising with a diesel (or a turbo for that matter) I think I may as well go auto if funds allow, but if you have a nice high revving engine then a manual makes starts to make sense.


You have to change down in the 335i too, but doesn't matter too much if you get it wrong as power is pretty much on tap in any gear. Same with a manual 330d, put it in second and it is on song, put it into third and it still pulls like a train, do that in a NA petrol though and it dies, you have fucked it up.


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Originally Posted by Fx1 View Post
Lol this all seems a little confusing but its hardly surprising since above you have spoken about every engine bmw make even as far back as 1995 including both FI and NA...

Only cause you said you can't look back past 2006 as so much has changed since then, which just isn't the case, if anything petrols are starting to progress even more.



Why are you test driving 335i's and 335d's??
Genuine question.
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      07-06-2011, 04:32 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Fx1 View Post
Also the comment about E30 being the most fun i think is wrong. if you were driving in a E30 back when they were in production its the fond memories that keep the idea fun.. not actually the car.
Well I had an E30 325i just after I sold my M3 CSL and I found that amazing to drive, taught me more about driving in the first 3 months than in my previous 15 years of driving, no traction control or DSC nonsense.

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Originally Posted by Fx1 View Post
If i drove an E30 i would think its shit. times have moved on..
I think you probably would.

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Originally Posted by Fx1 View Post
I will be testing a Z4 3.0i soon 258bhp so i will soon see the differences between the NA and the 335i engine..
Be interesting to see what you think of it, but take a Z4 M out as well if you can, that is more of the same, just rams it down your neck more.
It is obvious what a decent NA engine is all about with the Z4 M, where as it takes a fair while to get it with the 3.0i, still great but nit as brutal.
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      07-06-2011, 04:51 PM   #55
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I am test driving 335i and 335d because i want more power than 224bhp which i have at the moment, i also want a 6 pot engine...

Sadly my insurance has come down a little late in the game and the E92 is at the end of its life.. which gives me an issue with paying 20k for a car that could be worth 12k very quickly...
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      07-06-2011, 07:00 PM   #56
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From what I have read in this thread, I would say that gIzzE and I are brothers in arms.

A high revving petrol engine, and a manual box. That's what these cars are all about.
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      07-07-2011, 01:05 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Stufos View Post
From what I have read in this thread, I would say that gIzzE and I are brothers in arms.

A high revving petrol engine, and a manual box. That's what these cars are all about.
You guys need to forget about BMWs in that case, and go get a Honda with a VTEC engine. My old Integra type R (DC-2), reved to 8700rpm, sounded like a touring car, best manual box I've ever used, no sound proofing (mine didnt even have a radio), no aircon, recaro racing seats, no electronic helpers apart from ABS. A LSD at the front wheels meant bizarrely the more power you put down mid corner the less it understerred, it also did lift off oversteer like a good old fashioned French hot hatch. Despite having only 180bhp autocar magazine recorded a 0-60 time of 5.5seconds which back in it's day was supercar territory!!

I had to sell it after 8months because I simply couldn't live with it. 70mph on the motorway was 4.5krpm, I put a 600 speaker system in and still couldn't hear it over the engine, my neibroughs thought I was a twat for having a bright red car with a massive wing that woke them up every Sunday moroning because the exhaust was so loud (and that was the stock exhaust)...still when the time is right I'll be buying another one to strip out for track work!!

So yes I agree good NA engines are fun when couple to a good chassis, but in real day to day driving the 335i has so little turbo lag I'm more than happy with it. Is my 335i a better drivers car than my old Teg? Not a chance. Is my 335i a better drivers car than my old Peugeot 106 GTI? No...not really. But is it a better overall package? Defiantly yes.

I don't think you can compare cars like the Teg or any M car to a mainstream car like the 335i. The Teg and all M cars are bullt for one thing, to be thrashed to 1 inch of it's life around a track, the 335i is a normal car which has been updated to be almost as fast but at the same time remain every day life / user friendly.

But a 330i better than a 335i?? I've never driven a 330i so cannot comment, but I'm not entirely convinced how a lower powered normal 3 series, which has no LSD, same amount of 'creature comforts', same suspension components could be the better car?
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      07-07-2011, 02:57 AM   #58
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But a 330i better than a 335i?? I've never driven a 330i so cannot comment, but I'm not entirely convinced how a lower powered normal 3 series, which has no LSD, same amount of 'creature comforts', same suspension components could be the better car?
Nor was I, I bought the 335i.
It was actually being lent a 272bhp 330i that made me realise for the first time in 30 odd cars that it was NA petrol engines that gave me the reward factor when driving them.

Don't get me wrong I love the 335i, and would have another in a heatbeat, but if money were no object and someone was offering me a car to mess around in for a week out of the two I would take the 330i in manual guise.
If I were replacing my E320cdi then I would take an auto 335i, it does the mundane stuff and still makes you smile, and then it does all the fun stuff better than most as well.
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      07-10-2011, 07:02 AM   #59
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My thoughts exactly..have suffered this from a 320i I use to own lol

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fx1 View Post
the 318 m sport shouldnt exsist.
Any BMW with 4 cylinders shouldn't exist.
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      07-10-2011, 10:29 AM   #60
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I still think you should consider this car. You have to remember that a forum such as this attracts enthusiasts, a number of whom drive 330 or 335's. They are bound to look slightly askance at a 318i.
I own a tuned 335i and a 318d ES.

I would buy a diesel in that size any time over a crappy petrol - the 318i just makes NO sense.

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