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      02-05-2021, 05:39 PM   #111
tim_s
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Yeah I've coded the dash digital display to show true speed, quite helpful.
I've got over the 3.23 diff, it will do for now. If someone wants to offer me a good amount for it complete I'd build another shorter ratio one but otherwise I guess it will stay.

Talking ecus, I did a baseline datalog (standard 330 map) the other day, first one in years on this car. I'd be interested to hear what other people get on a standard car, this one's done 123k now and I need to throw in some spark plugs and a new air filter, has been a while. I didn't do much logging and haven't analysed the data in detail, that and annoyingly logged the wrong parameters using a default set rather than my usuals, but in summary got:
air mass around 580-600kg/h at 5k rpm, 725kg/h at 6k rpm, 750kg/hr near redline
torque (ist_wert) 310nm at 2k, 330nm ish at ~3k rpm, 340-355nm above 4k rpm dropping to 336 near the redline. Looking at inlet manifold pressure it seems it's not always pulling quite atmospheric.
Be great to get some comparison data...

All indications seem to be the car's running well, making good torque throughout and max airflow at the top all as you'd expect.
Also seems there's a bit more power in there with some work on the map.
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      02-08-2021, 07:58 AM   #112
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Flashed a new map on today and did another run. Not sure what's happened but think my previous data was probably invalid, possibly atmospherics are skewing things, but I'm getting much higher numbers today. Only things that have changed are swapping out the air filter for a K&N and putting the flash on, and I don't think either can be responsible for changes of the magnitude seen.
Now showing:
350nm @ 2,5k rpm
370nm @ 3k rpm
376nm @3,5k rpm
376-384nm @4,5k rpm - 6k+ rpm

700kg/hr @ 5,3k rpm
820-830kg/hr @6k rpm
840kg/hr @ redline

Target fuelling is now much more closely tracking the main fuel tables, not managed to datalog actual lambda.
The throttle hysteresis change is very noticeable and the car feels much more peppy.
Got to tweak the fuelling a touch more and do a bit more datalogging, but think I'll leave it there. I've been toying with the idea of taking the intake off again and cleaning out the intake valves/ports which I think might be worthwhile just to keep on top of things. I've also been considering how to improve the air intake, possibly running a pipe up from around the foglight area or something, I've had a bit of a look around and I'd be interested to hear what other people have done.
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      02-08-2021, 11:31 AM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tim_s View Post
Flashed a new map on today and did another run. Not sure what's happened but think my previous data was probably invalid, possibly atmospherics are skewing things, but I'm getting much higher numbers today. Only things that have changed are swapping out the air filter for a K&N and putting the flash on, and I don't think either can be responsible for changes of the magnitude seen.
Now showing:
350nm @ 2,5k rpm
370nm @ 3k rpm
376nm @3,5k rpm
376-384nm @4,5k rpm - 6k+ rpm

700kg/hr @ 5,3k rpm
820-830kg/hr @6k rpm
840kg/hr @ redline

Target fuelling is now much more closely tracking the main fuel tables, not managed to datalog actual lambda.
The throttle hysteresis change is very noticeable and the car feels much more peppy.
Got to tweak the fuelling a touch more and do a bit more datalogging, but think I'll leave it there. I've been toying with the idea of taking the intake off again and cleaning out the intake valves/ports which I think might be worthwhile just to keep on top of things. I've also been considering how to improve the air intake, possibly running a pipe up from around the foglight area or something, I've had a bit of a look around and I'd be interested to hear what other people have done.
That's insane how have you managed to make so much power with a 325i?
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      02-08-2021, 04:22 PM   #114
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The dme calculated torque isn't necessarily reflective if the actual output, but it's useful to compare from car to car and to see the impact of making changes. I'd wager this one's making a fair bit less than that it would be good to get some numbers from other cars.
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      02-08-2021, 05:20 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tim_s View Post
The dme calculated torque isn't necessarily reflective if the actual output, but it's useful to compare from car to car and to see the impact of making changes. I'd wager this one's making a fair bit less than that it would be good to get some numbers from other cars.
I opened the airbox initially by taking off the lid. Maybe placebo but i felt this improved throttle response but fuel economy dropped by a couple of mpg which was quite dramatic. Then installed air intake scoops and mpg returned to normal. Now with the mishimoto intake tube to the throttle body and airbox lid opened up it felt like it gained a little power too. It's worth picking up a spare airbox to mess about with. I also toyed with the idea of running an intake from beside the foglight but i'm inclined to think considering the reaction of the mpg, that the scoops force enough air through from that side.
Regarding the throttle did you just change the basic correction? I think changing the clutch intervention would be really nice for downshift blips (which have always been a little tricky to gauge given the built-in lag).
What tool do you use for data logging?
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      02-09-2021, 03:52 AM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tim_s View Post
The dme calculated torque isn't necessarily reflective if the actual output, but it's useful to compare from car to car and to see the impact of making changes. I'd wager this one's making a fair bit less than that it would be good to get some numbers from other cars.
Is this like reading torque from an OBD port? I get 330nm on a Dyno but through an OBD port I think the app read it at 360nm at it's highest.
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      02-09-2021, 06:25 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donnie2000 View Post
I opened the airbox initially by taking off the lid. Maybe placebo but i felt this improved throttle response but fuel economy dropped by a couple of mpg which was quite dramatic. Then installed air intake scoops and mpg returned to normal. Now with the mishimoto intake tube to the throttle body and airbox lid opened up it felt like it gained a little power too. It's worth picking up a spare airbox to mess about with. I also toyed with the idea of running an intake from beside the foglight but i'm inclined to think considering the reaction of the mpg, that the scoops force enough air through from that side.
Regarding the throttle did you just change the basic correction? I think changing the clutch intervention would be really nice for downshift blips (which have always been a little tricky to gauge given the built-in lag).
What tool do you use for data logging?
I think I just changed the basic parameter, I think there's a post on it earlier in this thread where I wasn't sure on offsets for one or two of the other maps. I use testo for logging, to get the parameters I need I end up using a customised profile but otherwise it works really well. I need some inspiration on where to run an air intake hose from down by the front bumper area but I think it could help, as much as the airbox and the filter seem like a great design I'm not sure about the 'snorkel' or whatever it's called that draws air into the box from in front of the rad.
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      02-09-2021, 08:19 AM   #118
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Something like this

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/76mm-1M-C....m46890.l49292

There's a free panel right beside the fog light that can be used on an e92. Hmm not sure on yours. Maybe it's the same.

Like here:

https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=836702

This seems to be on an e90, so should be similar.
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      02-09-2021, 10:42 AM   #119
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Yeah thats the kind of thing I think!
The foglight area has a brake duct on it

I could cut a hole in the top of the brake duct and put a pipe running to there but wouldn't get the ram air effect.
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      02-09-2021, 11:02 AM   #120
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ah that's different to the e92 shown below. The yellow marks highlight the brake cooling ducts and the red highlights the parts that are blank on mine.
I assume that photo is a 335 because that red one on the left looks like it is open. Maybe the 335 has a heat exchanger down there that the non turbo models don't have.
Unfortunately it doesn't look as straightforward on yours.
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      02-10-2021, 05:36 AM   #121
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yeah I guess one approach would be to try to fit the brake ducts that go into the centre grill to free up the side one for an air vent. Or the other way around, fit a brake duct to the centre to use for the air duct. Or just follow the m3, ditch the existing brake duct and the foglights and put a big air intake in.
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      02-10-2021, 05:40 PM   #122
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you get a ram air effect with the air scoops and existing snorkel for a lot less work.
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      02-11-2021, 11:17 AM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donnie2000 View Post
you get a ram air effect with the air scoops and existing snorkel for a lot less work.
Sure, I'm just not sure about the snorkel and whether it presents a bit of a restriction. BMW have the bumper foglight area intake with the m3, but obviously that's a different league power-wise.
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      02-11-2021, 01:33 PM   #124
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I wouldn't worry about the airbox, it isn't the restrictive element of the system. From what I've read I think you'd see better gains trying to stop the disa valves shutting and increasing the rev limit. Should be good to 7500rpm.
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      02-13-2021, 05:28 AM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0l0dom0l0 View Post
I wouldn't worry about the airbox, it isn't the restrictive element of the system. From what I've read I think you'd see better gains trying to stop the disa valves shutting and increasing the rev limit. Should be good to 7500rpm.
Be good if you could qualify some of that, esp on the airbox. As you can see above, I'm basing my thoughts on the intake manifold pressure I'm seeing, the shape and size of the long and thing entries to the snorkel, the flow path in general and the comparatively small entry to the airbox etc. I don't really know for certain whether it will make much odds, but note that Dinan take the same approach on the n52 and that the m3 has a different system etc. Be interested to know what makes you think differently.

On the disa valves, my understanding is that both are open at high rpm, and the valves are shut to give different inlet lengths at low and mid rpm to optimise port length/velocity? I'm not sure why I'd want to prevent them from shutting? If I wanted to not have disa, I understand I could just fit an n54 manifold, but I wouldn't want to as it's a road car.

As for running to 7,5k rpm, I'm surprised that's safe on a standard engine and would wonder whether you'd make much power up there. I wonder at what rpm the hydraulic lifters are over-pressured and what rpm the valve springs are good for etc. I've left the rev limit alone, tbh I wasn't even running it quite to the redline when mapping, I don't actually think I've ever run it to the limiter!
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      02-13-2021, 09:14 AM   #126
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There is a thread knocking around regarding the capability of the N52. I will find it when I get a chance. A company in America have done extensive research and development on a standard N52, using both the standard N52 intake manifold and the N54 manifold which has no DISA valves. Basically the long and short of it was that the N54 intake provided a little less torque overall throughout the rev range but instead of torque dropping off at 6700rpm, it continued to climb up until 7500rpm, thus making more power overall.

The reason for this in the end, turned out to be the 'soft rev limiter' introduced by the DISA valves shutting at 6700 and simply stopping all airflow to the engine.

The reason I think this is transferable over to the N53 is a few reasons. They share the same airbox/ snorkel configuration, which if it was the limiting factor would have been apparent on that testing. I also don't think the maifolds will be any different, although the N53 manifold has the EGR body attachment but I suspect that other than that they are the same. Might be wrong though.

Regarding the lifters, the lifters are used in a range of engines, the part number used in the N53 is the same for the S54 and a host of others which rev to 7500 as standard. The N52 will rev to over 8k on standard hardware (theres a video on YouTube).

I know that the two engines, N52 and N53 are very different but as they were being developed at a similar time and share a lot of components, I expect this info on the DISA valves will also be the limiting factor.

The way to see if you wanted would be to dyno the car, you can guarantee that there will be a cliff edge after peak power consistent with the DISA valves shutting rather than a smooth tail off typically associated with intake velocity as the limiting factor.
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      02-13-2021, 09:24 AM   #127
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I'm doubting some of that info now, maybe they did change the intake snorkel. It was a while ago I read it. Some of the info is still relevant anyway. Its a long thread.

Here is it.

https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1206386
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      02-13-2021, 11:20 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by 0l0dom0l0 View Post
I'm doubting some of that info now, maybe they did change the intake snorkel. It was a while ago I read it. Some of the info is still relevant anyway. Its a long thread.

Here is it.

https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1206386
A guy on insta as 328csl did the n54 intake manifold on his 328i us spec -, n52. Similar to the n53 as you said but he had to modify it slightly I think, I believe there is extra pipes or something ....
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      02-13-2021, 02:13 PM   #129
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Interesting stuff, I must admit I'd never heard of most of that, I'll have to have a read. I remain in the sceptic camp for the moment, but will keep an open mind
Quote:
Regarding the lifters, the lifters are used in a range of engines, the part number used in the N53 is the same for the S54 and a host of others which rev to 7500 as standard. The N52 will rev to over 8k on standard hardware (theres a video on YouTube)
The s54 uses fingers and shims, not hydraulic lifters - it doesn't share them with the n52/3. I used to own one, and an e36 s50b32 saloon (which uses bucket shims) and have done a valve adjustment job on them...
I'm highly dubious that a standard n52/3 will last for long running at 8,000rpm or make much power up there.

Last edited by tim_s; 02-13-2021 at 02:28 PM..
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      02-13-2021, 04:27 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tim_s View Post
Interesting stuff, I must admit I'd never heard of most of that, I'll have to have a read. I remain in the sceptic camp for the moment, but will keep an open mind

The s54 uses fingers and shims, not hydraulic lifters - it doesn't share them with the n52/3. I used to own one, and an e36 s50b32 saloon (which uses bucket shims) and have done a valve adjustment job on them...
I'm highly dubious that a standard n52/3 will last for long running at 8,000rpm or make much power up there.
I don't know what planet I was on earlier. I meant S55...

Edit: It must have been a typo

I searched for the N52 video, I've found it. 8200 rpm was where they got to..

Its been made private now though for some reason.

Last edited by 0l0dom0l0; 02-13-2021 at 05:10 PM..
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      02-14-2021, 04:33 AM   #131
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Ah, that's pretty cool, just looked at the s55 on realoem and it generally shares valve gear with an n52 (although the rockers are different), even rod bolts are the same old ones used on pretty much every non-M BMW, rods and shells are same as on n55. I'd still be quite nervous about running lots of rpm on those standard rod bolts etc but I suppose it does make a 7k rpm limit feel pretty safe!
The different rockers is interesting and I read that perhaps the n55 has a slightly longer rocker ratio which would make a nice little modification to get a touch more valve lift.
I had a quick look at the log I took last week or so and I sadly didn't go over 6,8k rpm. My logs show airflow is at around its peak of 820-840kg/h right at the top, at 6,2k it's 810-820kg/h. For me it's all pretty academic as I don't think I'll be using the car much at the top, and I really can't imagine the standard inlet/exhaust/cam profiles etc being up to much at higher rpm.
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      02-19-2021, 07:23 AM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tim_s View Post
Thought I'd give a little bit more detail on here about the 330 n53 map due to getting a few PMs about it. You can't flash a BMW N53 330 map onto a 325 because the power class in the DME and in the CAS must match, BMW use this handshake to ensure that you cannot flash from a more powerful model onto a lower power model - exactly what we're trying to do here. This mechanism is used in several different BMW DMEs where there is a significant power bump by remapping alone. There are many approaches to getting around this, but what I've done here is some binary modification (and subsequent checksum correction!) on the dme to still handshake as a 325 while all the rest of the data is from a 330. Other than this change the binary is unchanged, it is identical to a 330 ecu other than that it will work in a 325; it reports as a 330i software version. This is quite a different approach to the generic flash file that is available at many places (which still reports itself as the original software version). Having said that, on this car also I had pretty good results using a generic flash (which I bought from a company on the internet and flashed on myself), I just prefer to have the car running original BMW software and think that this is the better approach as I now know for certain the ECU is identical to a 330.
Hope this helps, any questions please feel free to ask on here! I'm happy to perform this on anyone's 325 for a small contribution (less than a generic flash!) to recover some of the costs/risk I invested in this and the tooling.
Tim
Could you pm pls?
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