[Bubbles]

Originally Posted by andy92782

Here is a video of my car accelerating prior to the V30.0 download:

And here is a video of my car accelerating after getting V30.0:

Can you tell any difference?

BTW, I noticed the display between the tach and the speedo has a different typeface/font now.

Seems to bog down a bit more just before 2k in the second video?

[karizma]

at first i thought i noticed a bit of hesitation, very slight, around 2k in the second video, but that might be when he's flooring it down completely? also , in the first video there is a similar hesitation also around 2k. either way, looks like it takes off pretty well to me, but i guess the turbo lag problems arent shown too much since hes in the high rev's and the lag is supposed to be in the 1500 rpm range.

[andy92782]

Originally Posted by karizma

at first i thought i noticed a bit of hesitation, very slight, around 2k in the second video, but that might be when he's flooring it down completely? also , in the first video there is a similar hesitation also around 2k. either way, looks like it takes off pretty well to me, but i guess the turbo lag problems arent shown too much since hes in the high rev's and the lag is supposed to be in the 1500 rpm range.

In both cases I mashed it, there was no "roll-on". I really don't think there's much difference between the two. If you really want to experience turbo lag, try driving an Evo.

[Sixspeed J]

Originally Posted by andy92782

In both cases I mashed it, there was no "roll-on". I really don't think there's much difference between the two. If you really want to experience turbo lag, try driving an Evo.

I watched the videos several times and I didn't see much if any difference.

[StarrDlux]

Originally Posted by meyergru

1. "He" does not shift. DS mode, see?
2. Matter-of-fact, maximum RPM gains best acceleration on 335i - and the steptronic knows that.

#1. didn't see that part sorry.

#2. fact? you know that shifting near 7K is fastest? explain the reasoning.
i'll explain mine:

the fastest run once you get started (Torque) is by having the car in its peak whp range. This can be measured on a dyno or using an accelerometer (G-tech).

Shift extension is best explained as you shift past the peakwhp a little to drop you right back into the peak whp range for the next successive gear.

shifting near 6800 -> look at a dyno man. there's no power up there you are going slower.

I'd pay to have the car shift appropriately for the size of the turbo's. if the bmw only had a 6000rpm rev limiter we'd pass on it. They need it for their e-penis.

Anyone thats seen a dyno of (dinan,etc) will see the turbo's can't handle the top end. You put two GT28RS' on there and shifting at 7K would be a whole nother story.

I don't buy it

please prove me wrong. I think my brother took my g-tech so you can bust one out or ask a tuner if you do not believe me they can log the car's g-force channel (goes with yaw and pitch).

or just give it a shot go race your buddy and have him wind it out to near 7K and you short shift at say 6000,6200,6400,6600,6800 and see for yourself who ends up going faster.

be sure to keep your eyes on the road

[meyergru]

Originally Posted by StarrDlux

#1. didn't see that part sorry.

#2. fact? you know that shifting near 7K is fastest? explain the reasoning.

...

please prove me wrong. I think my brother took my g-tech so you can bust one out or ask a tuner if you do not believe me they can log the car's g-force channel (goes with yaw and pitch).

or just give it a shot go race your buddy and have him wind it out to near 7K and you short shift at say 6000,6200,6400,6600,6800 and see for yourself who ends up going faster.

be sure to keep your eyes on the road

Will do - once I get my car back...

As for the reasoning:

You are correct, that in the high end, the higher RPMs do not make up for the loss of torque any more. But that's in the gear you are in at that moment.

Once you shift, the RPMs turn back to match the next higher gear. Especially in the lower gears, the ratio is big. What counts here is the torque that makes its way to the wheel and that is influenced by gearing. With the 335i step, the ratio between 1st and 2nd gear is no less than 78% (1:4.17 vs. 1:2.34) ! There is no way that the torque and RPM could drop that much, except for some diesels. In reality, the torque is probably 40% less at 7000 RPM than it is at 5000 rpm.

Thus, you better stay in the lowest gear possible for as long as possible (unless your torque drop exceeds the gearing ratio). If you don't believe this, here is a picture of a 335i steptronic (showing force at the wheels after gearing, the torque figures are not those specified by BMW, but somewhat like what I see in many dynos of stock cars here):



The best shifting point is reached where lines cross. As you can see, it is only in the higher gears (where the ratio becomes smaller), where the optimum shifting point is at slightly less than 7000 RPM (but rarely less than 6500 RPM).

In that gears, the ratio becomes so small (26% from 5th to 6th) that the 40% loss from high RPMs is worse than the gearing loss.

This holds true for the MT likewise:



Glad I could prove you wrong. Otherwise, BMW engineers had made another mistake in programming the steptronic. It shifts near redline in gears 1 to 4.

However, if you drive manual or M mode: avoid actually reaching redline, since this will really slow you down...

[StarrDlux]

Would that graph represent a typical tune (13-15psi peak then dropping down below 8psi at 7000rpm (too small turbos)?

i'm just curious. i'd still like to see runs done with a g-tech (or SSS's g-force log) short shifting a chipped/piggy 335i.

I believe the math i am no genius at math

[meyergru]

Originally Posted by StarrDlux

Would that graph represent a typical tune (13-15psi peak then dropping down below 8psi at 7000rpm (too small turbos)?

No, it represents stock. BMW states 400 Nm of torque and 306 HP in a rather idealized graph. I used a somewhat higher torque (I think it was 420 Nm, which sounds fair).

However, as you can see from the BMW data, torque is 400 Nm at 5000 RPM and 280 Nm at redline, which is a ratio of 1.40, whereas the gearing ratio between 1st and 2nd is 1.78. Show me a 335i dyno where the torque at redline is less than ~224 Nm, and I'll believe you.

We then have a case of non-fulfilled manufacturer's power specifications, however.

As for the tunes: They all make more power and thus at least try to do this at high RPM (in low RPM band, this would only put stress at the tranny), although their attempts work limited because of the small turbos and also make the car feel more like a turbo car. Thus, I would guess that the relative power drop in high RPMs is even less than in stock form.

[ezatnova]

Originally Posted by meyergru

No, it represents stock. BMW states 400 Nm of torque and 306 HP in a rather idealized graph. I used a somewhat higher torque (I think it was 420 Nm, which sounds fair).

However, as you can see from the BMW data, torque is 400 Nm at 5000 RPM and 280 Nm at redline, which is a ratio of 1.40, whereas the gearing ratio between 1st and 2nd is 1.78. Show me a 335i dyno where the torque at redline is less than ~224 Nm, and I'll believe you.

We then have a case of non-fulfilled manufacturer's power specifications, however.

As for the tunes: They all make more power and thus at least try to do this at high RPM (in low RPM band, this would only put stress at the tranny), although their attempts work limited because of the small turbos and also make the car feel more like a turbo car. Thus, I would guess that the relative power drop in high RPMs is even less than in stock form.

Back to V30 talk.... your car still sitting at the dealership? Any other updates from them? Nothing new on my front.

[meyergru]

Originally Posted by ezatnova

Back to V30 talk.... your car still sitting at the dealership? Any other updates from them? Nothing new on my front.

Yup. Same here. I doubt that I will hear from them before tomorrow.

I have the impression that my branch representative is very relaxed about the matter, as he knows that he has a fix ready as a last resort, namely to downgrade everything, which BMW will not approve yet. I will not press them for I want it done "the right way" (TM). Matter-of-fact, the steptronic was a tad smoother IMHO.

If an upgrade does not fix it, they can still undo everything.

[sgrimess]

I got ver. 30.x last Thursday. Didn't notice anything that night, but I didn't drive it much.

The next morning the car barely started, I've never had anything but smooth startups. The car shook and it felt like it was going to die. The RPM's finally got up to normal after 5 or 10 seconds.

Exhaust is noticeably deeper. I don't hate that, but it's different.

Car has been rough every morning start, but not as bad as the first day.

I'll try and test for lag, but not quite sure how to do it. I have an '08 335i with auto. Bought it in 10/07, not sure on build date. When should I punch it? What mode, sport or normal? AC on or off or does it matter?

[meyergru]

Originally Posted by sgrimess

I'll try and test for lag, but not quite sure how to do it. I have an '08 335i with auto. Bought it in 10/07, not sure on build date. When should I punch it? What mode, sport or normal? AC on or off or does it matter?

Switch to DS mode, then, at ~30mph, use paddles or stick to switch it to M3 or M4 (whatever does around 1500 RPM). From there, mash the throttle but avoid a kickdown. Now the car accelerates in the chosen gear.

You will find that it does this slowly first and after one second, you feel the turbos kicking in, which gives the usual punch.

In automatic mode, this is not as easy. You won't feel it in DS mode, since RPMs are always above 2000 RPM there. In D mode, you'd have to mash the throttle just enough to avoid an automatic shift (~ 40% throttle).

[CarbonE39m5]

Originally Posted by meyergru

Switch to DS mode, then, at ~30mph, use paddles or stick to switch it to M3 or M4 (whatever does around 1500 RPM). From there, mash the throttle but avoid a kickdown. Now the car accelerates in the chosen gear.

You will find that it does this slowly first and after one second, you feel the turbos kicking in, which gives the usual punch.

In automatic mode, this is not as easy. You won't feel it in DS mode, since RPMs are always above 2000 RPM there. In D mode, you'd have to mash the throttle just enough to avoid an automatic shift (~ 40% throttle).

if your going 30mph and punch it in third gear arent you going to feel 1 second of lag in any 335? if your going 30mph isnt the appropriate gear to be in 2nd?

[meyergru]

Originally Posted by GotAlottaCash

if your going 30mph and punch it in third gear arent you going to feel 1 second of lag in any 335? if your going 30mph isnt the appropriate gear to be in 2nd?

1. For a second? Only if you have v29.2 or v30. Or if you have a traditional turbocharged car of the 80s. Not on the 335i, advertised as having "no lag".

2. Depends on how fast you want to go. 30 mph in 2nd is ~3200 RPM. There is no turbo lag in that range any more, no matter which software.

The real problem is that when you use D mode and want to react quickly (e.g. hopping into a gap in heavy city traffic), you're basically out of luck, since a slight push won't get the turbos spooled up fast enough, whereas a heavy push leads to a downshift and rise of RPMs (both of which cause delays).

In D mode, the car feels like its non-aspirated equivalent with v29.2 or v30, IMHO. You won't notice it if you're going with DS or have never experienced the "normal" feel of a 335i.

[CarbonE39m5]

oh well i guess i dont have that problem because i always drive in M mode.

[fidozoom]

Originally Posted by meyergru

The real problem is that when you use D mode and want to react quickly (e.g. hopping into a gap in heavy city traffic), you're basically out of luck, since a slight push won't get the turbos spooled up fast enough, whereas a heavy push leads to a downshift and rise of RPMs (both of which cause delays).

This is exactly the problem I see and its really upsetting because I cannot how predict how the car would react...

[karizma]

i picked up my car yesterday, it is a june 08' build. i have the brown i-drive screen so i don't know if i have the old software, new software, or what. i do know that i don't have lag, a rough start, too deep an exhaust note, or any of that stuff that we seem to be hearing about from 29.2 and 30.

does anybody know if my car will still wind up getting the update, or if the spring cars are actually wired differently?

and a noob question here - whens' the first service? =)

thanks.

[iScream]

Thanks for the video. That is very subtle and VERY similar to what I've experienced in my (6MT) 335i, and I see the difference you are talking about. If you floored it exactly the same both times, then I think this is somewhat of a smoking gun. Put a stopwatch on the 0-60 and it seems like it's about .3-.4s slower, at a temperature 8 degrees COOLER than the pre-v30, no less.

The thing is, when you are behind the wheel, and you are used to driving your car for 15k miles one way, the difference is not so subtle. It is even more pronounced with a manual transmission. I was leaning forward when shifting for a good three weeks after I got upgraded. I still consider the issue with my car unresolved and hope to prove it to the tech at my dealership this week.

To those who don't see it, it only occurs between 1st and 2nd gear, because that is the only time the RPMs are low enough to expose the problem.

Edit: meant to say in 1st gear. Also, it would be really cool if someone were to time sync the videos side by side.

[iScream]

double post

[ezatnova]

Originally Posted by iScream

Thanks for the video. That is very subtle and VERY similar to what I've experienced in my (6MT) 335i, and I see the difference you are talking about. If you floored it exactly the same both times, then I think this is somewhat of a smoking gun. Put a stopwatch on the 0-60 and it seems like it's about .3-.4s slower, at a temperature 8 degrees COOLER than the pre-v30, no less.

The thing is, when you are behind the wheel, and you are used to driving your car for 15k miles one way, the difference is not so subtle. It is even more pronounced with a manual transmission. I was leaning forward when shifting for a good three weeks after I got upgraded. I still consider the issue with my car unresolved and hope to prove it to the tech at my dealership this week.

To those who don't see it, it only occurs between 1st and 2nd gear, because that is the only time the RPMs are low enough to expose the problem.

Edit: meant to say in 1st gear. Also, it would be really cool if someone were to time sync the videos side by side.

I would disagree with the last part. I'm cruising at 1500 rpm in many gears on various types of roads. My car sucks in each and every gear where I try and punch it below 3000 rpm.

[iScream]

Originally Posted by ezatnova

I would disagree with the last part. I'm cruising at 1500 rpm in many gears on various types of roads. My car sucks in each and every gear where I try and punch it below 3000 rpm.

Correct. I guess I didn't edit for enough clarity. I meant to say that in this particular video the RPMs are only low enough in 1st gear.

I do get the lag in every single gear if the RPMs are lower than about 2700 or 3000 or so.

[ezatnova]

Quisp...you know you can delete and edit posts (in each of the three threads I've seen it in)...it would be better if you did either, rather than leave your misinformation post up there.

Sorry to moderate. lol