[Universal_Magnetic]

FIGHT IT...$50 ticket can increase your insurance by a hundred dollars per year for the next 3 years.

[Universal_Magnetic]

Originally Posted by A.Kon

I can't stress it enough - if everyone in Toronto were to fight their tickets instead of paying them, the courts would be so backed up that there would be fewer and fewer convictions ... cops having to show up to court on various random days (hopefully their vacation days) meaning more and more people let off the hook, saving everyone else money, and maybe saving you money for next time you get a ticket.

actually what they starting doing now is for each cop they give them numerous court trials on one day, so that they can appear for all of them; kind of like spending the day at a courthouse.

[A.Kon]

Originally Posted by GunnerGrey

Just to play devil's advocate here:

Sure no problem - I'm not trying to be an a$$, and I know you aren't either but if you have some time I strongly suggest reading through the following:

http://www.magma.ca/~fyst/

one of the most compelling to be:
http://www.magma.ca/~fyst/appndxd.htm

Originally Posted by GunnerGrey

Why would you want to bog down our court system? That won't affect change in the law, just increase our taxes. Plus, serious offenders get let off more often.

Bogging down the court system would most likely result in one of two things:
1) the crown would hire more judges, admin workers and crown attorneys, pay them and train them which I agree would increase taxes for most taxpayers, but I doubt people would see a major difference in their taxes ... or
2) someone will take note and see the uprise in non-guilty pleas and hopefully change the highway traffic act or at least the way it is enforced.

I agree it's a gamble of an outcome, but given the large room for potential improvement to traffic laws to laws that would might make more sense, I'll go and fight my tickets no matter how small and insignificant.

I use a lawyer everytime - I don't care if the cost of the lawyer is more than the ticket. minor speeding infractions and what they do to insurance premiums are ridiculous and should be stopped. Major speeding infractions and wreckless driving should have more consequences.

Now if we can only get the law makers to be able to hand out tickets to people who ding other people's doors - that would be great?! Why isn't vandalism of other people's property a law in the HTA and ticketable?

Originally Posted by GunnerGrey

Why "stupid cop"? Do people call you stupid for doing your job? The things that you are told to do?

By taking the cop off the streets you're doing your community a disservice.

Traffic cops who sit and monitor speed traps are not coming to your door and saving your lives and your valuables. There are far too many cops in Toronto who sit around enjoying their free time and on their power trip content in doing absolutely nothing all day. Most cops are not the brightest people and were usually those football jocks/bullys in school and couldn't get an actual career to do something more rewarding with their lives.

I have the utmost respect for cops who are passionate about helping and protecting people in need and the detectives to solve crimes. My good friend is a police detective who went to university and studied criminology and even he admits the number of "stupid cops" in his precinct is outrageous. What I mean by bad cops are the ones who just like to waive their power over citizens and enjoy flashing their badge.

Originally Posted by GunnerGrey

Who sets the quota? The individual cop? I don't think so.

I don't know who sets the quota ... if I did I would write to my MP and get them to change that. What I suspect, is that someone in their bright wisdom believed that there were more traffic violations on he streets of Toronto so to get those lazy cops off their butts collecting paychecks for doing nothing, someone enforced a quota which is why there are more tickets being issued than say 15 years ago.

I don't like excessive speeders either, but I think there are far worse drivers than speeders out there. Going 120 kph on a 400 series highway should not be considered speeding. Going 67 kph in a 50 zone which suddenly drops to 40 should not be considered dangerous and against the law.

Just yesterday I was on the DVP during moderate traffic and cruising at 100 kph and I saw 2 Acuras zoom by, weaving through the lanes back and forth between all the cars with blatant disregard for everyone else - they didn't get pulled over.

[A.Kon]

Originally Posted by Universal_Magnetic

actually what they starting doing now is for each cop they give them numerous court trials on one day, so that they can appear for all of them; kind of like spending the day at a courthouse.

I know - so the strategy now is to never accept the first court date.
Or get someone to appear in your place on that day - usually the judge or crown attorney decides right there when the next court date is (usually a week or so later) ... and hopefully that coincides with the cop's kid's birthday party or vacation plans or something.

[bulldog_yyc]

Originally Posted by A.Kon

Sure no problem - I'm not trying to be an a$$, and I know you aren't either but if you have some time I strongly suggest reading through the following:

http://www.magma.ca/~fyst/

one of the most compelling to be:
http://www.magma.ca/~fyst/appndxd.htm



Bogging down the court system would most likely result in one of two things:
1) the crown would hire more judges, admin workers and crown attorneys, pay them and train them which I agree would increase taxes for most taxpayers, but I doubt people would see a major difference in their taxes ... or
2) someone will take note and see the uprise in non-guilty pleas and hopefully change the highway traffic act or at least the way it is enforced.

I agree it's a gamble of an outcome, but given the large room for potential improvement to traffic laws to laws that would might make more sense, I'll go and fight my tickets no matter how small and insignificant.

I use a lawyer everytime - I don't care if the cost of the lawyer is more than the ticket. minor speeding infractions and what they do to insurance premiums are ridiculous and should be stopped. Major speeding infractions and wreckless driving should have more consequences.

Now if we can only get the law makers to be able to hand out tickets to people who ding other people's doors - that would be great?! Why isn't vandalism of other people's property a law in the HTA and ticketable?



Traffic cops who sit and monitor speed traps are not coming to your door and saving your lives and your valuables. There are far too many cops in Toronto who sit around enjoying their free time and on their power trip content in doing absolutely nothing all day. Most cops are not the brightest people and were usually those football jocks/bullys in school and couldn't get an actual career to do something more rewarding with their lives.

I have the utmost respect for cops who are passionate about helping and protecting people in need and the detectives to solve crimes. My good friend is a police detective who went to university and studied criminology and even he admits the number of "stupid cops" in his precinct is outrageous. What I mean by bad cops are the ones who just like to waive their power over citizens and enjoy flashing their badge.



I don't know who sets the quota ... if I did I would write to my MP and get them to change that. What I suspect, is that someone in their bright wisdom believed that there were more traffic violations on he streets of Toronto so to get those lazy cops off their butts collecting paychecks for doing nothing, someone enforced a quota which is why there are more tickets being issued than say 15 years ago.

I don't like excessive speeders either, but I think there are far worse drivers than speeders out there. Going 120 kph on a 400 series highway should not be considered speeding. Going 67 kph in a 50 zone which suddenly drops to 40 should not be considered dangerous and against the law.

Just yesterday I was on the DVP during moderate traffic and cruising at 100 kph and I saw 2 Acuras zoom by, weaving through the lanes back and forth between all the cars with blatant disregard for everyone else - they didn't get pulled over.

While I agree with the majority of your good points, consider this:

Municipalities (eg Toronto) are hurting for cash. They would prefer to write as many tickets as possible with the resources they have in the field at any given time. Most people just pay the ticket rather than fight it. Cities make budgets that depend on a certain amount of revenues from fines and offenses. If they realized that more people were fighting tickets (increasing the cities court/legal expenses AND reducing the revenues from fines), then they would simply hire more cops to issue more parking tickets and/or be less lenient in court cases, increase the costs of the tickets themselves and/or reduce the threshold levels for the tickets (ie cops would be more likely to write you a ticket for going 105 km in 100 zone), say by installing photo-radar (like what is planned for Quebec) or similar devices.

There is no way to win this battle except to either not get caught (radar detector or other device) or to not break the rules.

[A.Kon]

Of course the best defense is not to get caught, or better yet, don't drive over the speed limit. I tried doing this for a while and got too annoyed with granny's in Corollas, people on bicycles and TTC buses passing me.

Cops have gotten out of control with tickets. Fighting them is really the only thing we can do. Just paying them sends the wrong message. It's exactly what the law makers, insurance companies ,etc. want and not coincidentally it's exactly the reason the cops lower the speeds and fines on the spot in the first place - I wouldn't be surprised if they are instructed to do so. In fact I wouldn't even be surprised if they are told do so with any luxury cars like BMWs because usually the driver can just pay without any hassles - kind of like what happened to the OP in this thread.

My friend was pulled over for his exhaust a while ago ... as the cop was explaining that aftermarket exhausts are too loud and illegal because of noise pollution laws and exactly right after he said that a harley davidson passed by them that was 10 times louder than his aftermarket exhaust. My friend looked at the cop and said to him ... "man, you can't be serious ..." The cop couldn't help but smile at the irony and just let him go.

[The English Hacker]

Originally Posted by A.Kon

Sure no problem - I'm not trying to be an a$$, and I know you aren't either but if you have some time I strongly suggest reading through the following:

http://www.magma.ca/~fyst/

one of the most compelling to be:
http://www.magma.ca/~fyst/appndxd.htm

No, i'm not trying to be an a$$. Let's get this straight, I think that speed limits are outdated and should be revised, however, I do disagree with your methods.

These are my points of contention:

1. I read the content of that website. Have you noticed how few people actually say they were at or below the speed limit and were wrongly ticketed? Depending upon the circumstances the rest were probably breaking the law, whether you agree with that law or not.

2. Hiring additional judges and prosecuters will lead to increased taxes and likely increased fines across the board to pay for them.

3. If a cop has a quota (which you agree is not set by themself), then having them attend court more often will not change the number of tickets they must give out (to meet their quota). It just means that to do their job, the way they've been instructed, they'll give out more in a shorter span of time leading to more frivolous ticketing.

4. Laws (or in this case the HTA) do not get changed because there's an increase in the number of people that plead not guilty. Those cars on the DVP probably didn't get pulled over because the cop was in court explaining why they gave a ticket to someone who broke the law.

5. Your example of driving 67 in a 50 zone that changes to 40 - being ignorant of or choosing to ignore the law is not a defense. Or was the person in your example protesting against the imposed speed limit by driving at that speed?

6. I know many cops. Some have higher education, some do not. They didn't write the law - it was without question people with higher education and in particular a legal education. These are the same people that benefit when you take a ticket to court. The cop doesn't get a bonus for traffic convictions.

[G-Mach1]

Originally Posted by GunnerGrey

No, i'm not trying to be an a$$. Let's get this straight, I think that speed limits are outdated and should be revised, however, I do disagree with your methods.

These are my points of contention:

1. I read the content of that website. Have you noticed how few people actually say they were at or below the speed limit and were wrongly ticketed? Depending upon the circumstances the rest were probably breaking the law, whether you agree with that law or not.

2. Hiring additional judges and prosecuters will lead to increased taxes and likely increased fines across the board to pay for them.

3. If a cop has a quota (which you agree is not set by themself), then having them attend court more often will not change the number of tickets they must give out (to meet their quota). It just means that to do their job, the way they've been instructed, they'll give out more in a shorter span of time leading to more frivolous ticketing.

4. Laws (or in this case the HTA) do not get changed because there's an increase in the number of people that plead not guilty. Those cars on the DVP probably didn't get pulled over because the cop was in court explaining why they gave a ticket to someone who broke the law.

5. Your example of driving 67 in a 50 zone that changes to 40 - being ignorant of or choosing to ignore the law is not a defense. Or was the person in your example protesting against the imposed speed limit by driving at that speed?

6. I know many cops. Some have higher education, some do not. They didn't write the law - it was without question people with higher education and in particular a legal education. These are the same people that benefit when you take a ticket to court. The cop doesn't get a bonus for traffic convictions.

+1 - Well said.

For the record - No I am not a cop. I wish I was. I always wanted to be a cop and because of family reasons I couldn't.

[alanchan]

Originally Posted by Universal_Magnetic

actually what they starting doing now is for each cop they give them numerous court trials on one day, so that they can appear for all of them; kind of like spending the day at a courthouse.

You are absolutely correct, I fought for my ticket last year and the cop did show up in court.
This is in Vancouver so the case might be different in Ontario.

I am not trying to discourage you from fighting the ticket.
The way I look at it is the court schedule cannot be changed once its been set and you have to take time off to be there.

If you are making $100 an hour and you need to take 1 1/2 hr off + the parking you have to pay there, Vancouver downtown parking is $15

Your chance is 50/50
what do you gain at the end? even you win the case .....

[A.Kon]

Originally Posted by GunnerGrey

No, i'm not trying to be an a$$. Let's get this straight, I think that speed limits are outdated and should be revised, however, I do disagree with your methods.

These are my points of contention:

1. I read the content of that website. Have you noticed how few people actually say they were at or below the speed limit and were wrongly ticketed? Depending upon the circumstances the rest were probably breaking the law, whether you agree with that law or not.

2. Hiring additional judges and prosecuters will lead to increased taxes and likely increased fines across the board to pay for them.

3. If a cop has a quota (which you agree is not set by themself), then having them attend court more often will not change the number of tickets they must give out (to meet their quota). It just means that to do their job, the way they've been instructed, they'll give out more in a shorter span of time leading to more frivolous ticketing.

4. Laws (or in this case the HTA) do not get changed because there's an increase in the number of people that plead not guilty. Those cars on the DVP probably didn't get pulled over because the cop was in court explaining why they gave a ticket to someone who broke the law.

5. Your example of driving 67 in a 50 zone that changes to 40 - being ignorant of or choosing to ignore the law is not a defense. Or was the person in your example protesting against the imposed speed limit by driving at that speed?

6. I know many cops. Some have higher education, some do not. They didn't write the law - it was without question people with higher education and in particular a legal education. These are the same people that benefit when you take a ticket to court. The cop doesn't get a bonus for traffic convictions.

I hear what you're saying, and I admit at first I was of your train of thought too, it's not worth it and the law is the law. But now I'm of the belief that you have to stand up for what's right and what isn't and ticketing the OP in this case was wrong and not dangerous driving. I guess more as a matter of principle.

And forgive if I'm wrong, me but your arguments imply that no one should ever be fighting their tickets because it's a waste of everyone's money and efforts and you deserve to pay fines and insurance companies to label you as a reckless driver and charge you higher premiums. Well I completely disagree.

Going a little over the speed limit is not dangerous and ticketing offenders is purely a cash grab, nothing more. I agree that excessive speeding should be stopped and saved for the track. If the government really wanted to stop speeding, then they would implement radar everywhere and more severe fines and penalties would be imposed ... not minor tickets. Cars would have speed limiters to 100 kph.

I prefer to believe that any laws that is flawed should be changed or updated for better of the community. Consider slavery, or womens rights, or the rights of disabled people ... I realize these are no where near the same thing as speeding in a car, but my point is that flawed laws won't correct themselves. People shouldn't just sit around and accept it when they know it's wrong. So I prefer to exercise my rights and fight stupid tickets and I would hope that everyone would do the same.

If you can think of a better way for everyone to rise and stand up for what's right and what's wrong, please feel free to advise.

[who's ur daddy?]

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree about speed limits on city streets, especially school zones and streets @ 40km/h limits. Sometimes they are there for a reason. It's for safety of residents and children. My sister was clipped by a car when running toward an ice cream truck when we were younger. Fortunatley, it was a scraped ankle, but the guy was speeding down a residential street between parked cars.

So, believe it or not, sometimes the speed limit is set at 40km/h for a reason. Not just to set a trap so someone can give you a ticket.

[A.Kon]

Originally Posted by who's ur daddy?

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree about speed limits on city streets, especially school zones and streets @ 40km/h limits. Sometimes they are there for a reason. It's for safety of residents and children. My sister was clipped by a car when running toward an ice cream truck when we were younger. Fortunatley, it was a scraped ankle, but the guy was speeding down a residential street between parked cars.

So, believe it or not, sometimes the speed limit is set at 40km/h for a reason. Not just to set a trap so someone can give you a ticket.

Again, if the government was truly concerned about safety and speeding in school zones they would put in speed bumps near every school zone.

Drive downtown in those small (upper income) residential communities - they all have posted 30 kph limts AND huge a$$ speed humps that froce drivers to slow down in those communities. no one drives fast on those roads. and in case you are wondering, the community asked the city to put them in so they did.

If the city was truly concerned about speeders and children getting hit by cars, they would put in speed bumps on all the roads near schools. and if they did put in speed bumps, I highly doubt anyone would complain about them ... so why not do it?

Two words why ... cash grab.

Truth is we are all brain washed to believe the speed limits and the enforcement tactics are fine the way they are. I don't think so, which is why I think everyone should fight their tickets, no matter how minor the infraction.

anyway, I'm done with this thread.

Hey Pylon - do what you think is right for you, but don't let anyone tell you that it's too insignificant to fight the ticket. There's no such thing. each ticket can cause you grief for insurance no matter how small the fine is - a 15kph over ticket is exactly the same as a 49 kph over the limit ticket to you insurance company - go ask them yourself and see.

[dpwr]

Originally Posted by alanchan

You are absolutely correct, I fought for my ticket last year and the cop did show up in court.
This is in Vancouver so the case might be different in Ontario.

I am not trying to discourage you from fighting the ticket.
The way I look at it is the court schedule cannot be changed once its been set and you have to take time off to be there.

If you are making $100 an hour and you need to take 1 1/2 hr off + the parking you have to pay there, Vancouver downtown parking is $15

Your chance is 50/50
what do you gain at the end? even you win the case .....

for one, you're talking about one ticket, what if you already have 1-2 tickets on your record? with 2-3 tickets they will jack up your rates to AT LEAST extra $50/month which comes out to $1800 in 3 years (it can easily be more).. so then let's say you get into accident and they split it 50/50 fault, now your record is screwed and you'll be paying up... not to mention one year you make 100/hour then the next year it's 20/hour (been there done that)... and I completely agree with A.Kon, it's a business for the government simple as that... let's look at my last 2 tickets; driving my mother to the doctor, going about 55 in 40 zone in the right lane, in the left lane cars are going 60-70 easily, who get's pulled over? me (gives me 10 over)... and my latest one, going south on 404 to drop of girl, turned west on bloor and as you know bloor splits into two roads, so I accelerate to go into the left lane, and boom cop catches me (cars on my left were going alot faster then me) gives me 15 over... driving aggressively waving through the traffic is pretty stupid and immature and should be punished I completely agree but there's simply NO WAY you can follow limits in GTA, you'll cause more accidents that way

ps. about my last ticket, it got thrown out automatically (I didn't even get a date by mail, had to go to the court to make sure), I think there's too many tickets right now and they go after the bigger fines, so smaller fines get thrown out

[montreal red]

wow from all of your arguments, it seems like 1 ticket would hike your insurance rates a lot... here in quebec, 1 ticket will raise your license renewal rate for 3 years but not by much. bout $30 more/year i think. doesnt affect the insurance premiums at all. weird that ontario insurance companies look at your ticket history so closely!

[Me_Hi]

for everybody with driving tickets
My brother in law is a paralegal and also teaches paralegal at herzing college at Downtown Campus. Sorry, he drives an audi a6
his rates are very good and he is very successfull
Adelin Mocanu
416 829 1387