[chris_s1]

Originally Posted by dar2008

I'm finding the same now looking for a second hand Fiesta for my son. > 90% are dealers.

Anyway, I've just found one that looks quite good, and it's a private sale. I've run an Autocheck on it, and it has outstanding finance... what's the protocol with that? If we like the car, do we pay the finance and the remainder to the seller, or do we pay the seller and watch them pay the finance company (Ford Finance)?

Do an instant bank transfer to the finance company, get the seller to call them in your presence and confirm settlement, pay remainder to the seller in cash or similar bank transfer.

This was the procedure recommended to me by BMW finance when I sold my previous car to a private buyer that had outstanding finance. If in doubt, call the finance company and ask them their preferred method. Its technically their car so they are the ones you have to please!

[Drrncour]

Originally Posted by dar2008

I'm finding the same now looking for a second hand Fiesta for my son. > 90% are dealers.

Anyway, I've just found one that looks quite good, and it's a private sale. I've run an Autocheck on it, and it has outstanding finance... what's the protocol with that? If we like the car, do we pay the finance and the remainder to the seller, or do we pay the seller and watch them pay the finance company (Ford Finance)?

Aways a tricky one this. as you can't pay the finance for the seller, so you are doing it on their trust.(you give them the money to pay it) The outstanding amount could be anything he tells you it is. Remember if you buy a car with outstanding finance, and any issues arise the finance company can legally just reprocess the car off you if the seller doesn't make full payment, or keep it up, and that's your money gone. You can't legally sell a car on finance as they don't own it, the finance company do.

I bought the misses an astra and did an auto check, and came up finance clear. Anyways two years later Santander wrote to us, trying to repossess the car as it had outstanding finance. (Seller hadn't paid). Once we had shown them it was Hpi clear on the report (not all companies show up apparently), provided bank statements of withdrawn cash to pay for the car, proved were the cash came from and provided service history, mot and log book ect they backed off and wrote to us saying they have no interest any longer in the car and would chase the seller from the cash. It was a ball ache and they didn't really care, as it's their property.

If it wasn't mentioned in the ad that's also something the seller is hiding. I would always stay away from a financed car from someone you don't know.

[xs2man]

Originally Posted by Drrncour

you can't pay the finance for the seller

Before putting my 335d up for sale the first time, I had spoken to BMW finance about this, and the above is EXACTLY what they suggested I do. Get the buyer to pay the finance for me, then they pay me whatever difference is remaining.

Why wouldn't you be able to pay the finance for the seller? Surely the finance company doesn't care where the money comes from, just that they get their money...

[Drrncour]

Originally Posted by xs2man

Before putting my 335d up for sale the first time, I had spoken to BMW finance about this, and the above is EXACTLY what they suggested I do. Get the buyer to pay the finance for me, then they pay me whatever difference is remaining.

Why wouldn't you be able to pay the finance for the seller? Surely the finance company doesn't care where the money comes from, just that they get their money...

All depends on the finance company. I just wouldn't personally do it this way, to
Many variables.

Also depends on how much finance on the fiesta is outstanding, hopefully not more then the car is worth.

[xs2man]

Well, obviously you don't buy a motor that has more finance outstanding than the asking price, but how is there too many variables in paying off the finance company, in full, directly yourself?

Am I missing something here as to why you paying off the finance companies full interest in the vehicle doesn't completely take away any risk of the finance companies further involvement? Where are the extra variables that I appear to be missing here?

Is it not just as simple as :

Car is worth X + Y where X is outstanding to finance company, and Y is balance of cars value.

So you pay X to finance company and Y to the seller. Does that not complete the equation? Or am I missing a Z variable?

[Alex.J]

Originally Posted by xs2man

Well, obviously you don't buy a motor that has more finance outstanding than the asking price, but how is there too many variables in paying off the finance company, in full, directly yourself?

Am I missing something here as to why you paying off the finance companies full interest in the vehicle doesn't completely take away any risk of the finance companies further involvement? Where are the extra variables that I appear to be missing here?

Is it not just as simple as :

Car is worth X + Y where X is outstanding to finance company, and Y is balance of cars value.

So you pay X to finance company and Y to the seller. Does that not complete the equation? Or am I missing a Z variable?

Your missing the zebra tax that comes with the car!

So seem to think its all about xylophones and yankee candles!

Obviously!

[doughboy]

Originally Posted by xs2man

Am I missing something here as to why you paying off the finance companies full interest in the vehicle doesn't completely take away any risk of the finance companies further involvement?

It's not about the finance company so much as the process of ownership transfer over the day(s) involved, and the fact that you are very vulnerable until you get the keys / paperwork.

It always very dodgy to buy a car (or anything) which is used as security on finance, there is alway an extra element of trust required by you on the seller. Thats why when you buy a house it has to all be done poperly with no 'risky' periods mid transfer.

Firstly it's not his car to sell. Secondly the time window from you parting with your cash to it all being sorted could be a day(s) or more, too long for me on a private sale, too many things could go wrong.

If you pay the finance company yourself, YOU are not the named payer, you are effectively "gifting' the seller that money and paying it off in his name out of the kindness of your heart, maybe you're a family friend who just wanted to help him out?. Then when the finance is clear, the car reverts to the sellers ownership in full.

You then have to trust him to give it to you. He could just drive off in his new finance free car that you haven't bought yet.

Online transfers are also no good as although they show in the receivers bank same day, they are reversable for up to 7 days, this is why you can't use them for buying a car from a dealer etc as they know they are no good (if they are not daft)

You would have to arrange a CHAPS transfer which costs £25 or so, and is more complex of course and involves going to the bank and filling in forms etc, not something you can do quickly.

Steer clear IMO, unless he's giving a good discount for your trouble / risk and you are prepared to risk it for that.

Dealers/trader have special permissions to settle finance directly and take ownership simultaneously, but Joe Public can't.

[gIzzE]

I would much rather buy a car with finance used than one without.

I would rather pay Lombard, Blackhorse, Mercedes, BMW, VW etc. £15,000 than some individual, as you know none of those companies would be in on any scam.

Most important thing these days is Log Book Loans, they don't have to register their interest, and they own the car, so you could find the seller takes out a laon the day before and then you take the car, you will get it repossessed a couple of months later.

A couple of HPI companies are now covering for this, that is now an essential part of any car purchase.

But this log book loan thing needs to be sorted out as it is becoming a serious issue.

[gIzzE]

Settling finance is easy.

You get the seller to authorise you to speak to the finance house.
You get them to send you a settlement and you pay it on the day you collect the keys, and balance goes to the seller or to you from the seller.

You can get a draft and pay it into the finance houses account, you know it is fine, the seller might want to you to do a CHAPS payment so he can get an email or fax from the finance house to say the no longer hold an interest in the vehicle.

But, if he sees you being given a draft at your bank he should be fine, chances of you getting a bank in on any scam is short to none.

I wouldn't want to buy a car privately without finance on it these days unless it was cheap enough for me to loose it all. There are just too many scams.

[doughboy]

Good point gizze, I never thought of it that way.

I bow to your experience on that one, still not keen on the window of time when you don't know where your money is and you still don't have the car though. CHAPS transfers just happen "sometime" between 9 and 3, and if it misses the 3pm, you have to wait till next day (or monday if its friday). You've got the added middleman finance co waiting for them to recieve the money and send over bits of paper etc.


I've heard of log book loans, but do they really own the vehicle in Law?

[gIzzE]

Originally Posted by doughboy

I've heard of log book loans, but do they really own the vehicle in Law?

Yeah they do, it's done through a bill of sale, which was originally for horse and cart loans.
All a bit devious, imho if they should be told if they don't register their interest they loose all claims for the vehicle.

[doughboy]

Originally Posted by gIzzE

Yeah they do, it's done through a bill of sale, which was originally for horse and cart loans.
All a bit devious, imho if they should be told if they don't register their interest they loose all claims for the vehicle.

ha, some dodgy old law that's never been repealed?

That's one to look out for!

[Sir_Pigley]

Originally Posted by doughboy

If you pay the finance company yourself, YOU are not the named payer, you are effectively "gifting' the seller that money and paying it off in his name out of the kindness of your heart, maybe you're a family friend who just wanted to help him out?. Then when the finance is clear, the car reverts to the sellers ownership in full.

You then have to trust him to give it to you. He could just drive off in his new finance free car that you haven't bought yet.

That's no different than handing over the cash to him directly! He could take the cash and refuse to hand over the documents!!

If your response to that is that you are on his site and can simultaneously exchange the cash/keys - you can effectively do the same with a payment to the finance company.

Effectively you settle the finance when on site. This is what I did with my last purchase. I paid the finance over the phone when at his house and then did a bank transfer on site in full view of the seller; he then handed over the keys and documents.

Contrary to what someone else says: if you do a bank transfer by faster payments it is not reversible. You certainly cannot recall the payment.

FAQ from Natwest site

[rjwojcik]

Originally Posted by gIzzE

I would much rather buy a car with finance used than one without.

I would rather pay Lombard, Blackhorse, Mercedes, BMW, VW etc. £15,000 than some individual, as you know none of those companies would be in on any scam.

Never thought of it that way but kinda makes good sense. I bought my 135i that was on finance and just got a settlement figure, paid that off, got confirmation from the finance company that it had been settled and then drove the car off.

Back to the OPs question, how about auctions. You all normally have websites so you can scan them for the make/model your interested in and go along on the day in question.

[chris_s1]

Originally Posted by rjwojcik

Back to the OPs question, how about auctions. You all normally have websites so you can scan them for the make/model your interested in and go along on the day in question.

Funny you should mention it but I have quite a lot of info on that subject that I have been gathering over the last few weeks.

I have bought several cars at auction before, so I'm quite a regular at the local BCA and know the ins and outs of auctions very well.

I fully intended to buy the wife's new car at auction and I have visited about 6 sales in the last month at a couple of different BCA's, one at a Manheim and one at an independent local place. I can go along to a sale for a few hours and just soak the atmosphere up and note down the prices. I get some kind of strange pleasure from sizing all the cars up, guessing what I think they'll go for and pretending what I'd bid on them.......but anyway that's just me..

However, the game has changed in the 2 years since I last bought a car there. Partly due to fees - the auction houses are really stinging the private buyer. A £10k car will cost you well over £500 extra in fees before you get the keys....this is going to make a serious dent in an potential savings you can make. The trade buyers pay fees at a tiny rate in comparison

If you want a 4/5 year old high miler in average condition and are willing to take a punt on the mechanical condition then there are still bargains to be had.
However, if you are after what the industry call 'prime stock' ie cars that are less than 3 years old (ie still in warranty) and in good condition with genuine histories then there you are going to have a hard time..

I have an up to date CAP black book, so for every sale, I researched all the prices on the lots I was interested in ahead of time, and virtually all the cars that were potentials for me went for either very top whack book price or over. Even more surprising is that when you look at Auto Trader and ebay, the same cars seem to be available for similar prices or less from traders.....

Prime example - I went to Manheim Bruntingthorpe last week and watched a 2012(61) Grand Scenic 1.5Dci Dynamique TomTom with 6k miles go through at £11,300. With fees that would have cost me £11,800 and I've still got to get it home, and don't have 100% guarantee on the condition or get to see the service book in the flesh. I would have gone to £11k for it tops.

Instead, I bought today an identical car spec wise, except that its newer 2012(12) and with 7k miles, from a franchised dealer all in for £11,250. CAP indicates that the auction price on that car would be £11,100 before fees.

At the last auction, I plucked up the courage to chat to a trade buyer that had seen me there a few times. Turns out he worked for a major dealership chain. He told me that they make virtually no margin on used cars now, a few hundred quid per unit at most. Their entire business model is now built around finance, warranties and extras. Which means if you are a cash buyer, there is virtually no reason at all to buy from auctions...this seems to explain what I have seen but makes me sad on the state of the industry some how....

Sorry that this post has been a bit of a ramble!

[rjwojcik]

Originally Posted by chris_s1

Funny you should mention it but I have quite a lot of info on that subject that I have been gathering over the last few weeks.

I have bought several cars at auction before, so I'm quite a regular at the local BCA and know the ins and outs of auctions very well.

I fully intended to buy the wife's new car at auction and I have visited about 6 sales in the last month at a couple of different BCA's, one at a Manheim and one at an independent local place. I can go along to a sale for a few hours and just soak the atmosphere up and note down the prices. I get some kind of strange pleasure from sizing all the cars up, guessing what I think they'll go for and pretending what I'd bid on them.......but anyway that's just me..

However, the game has changed in the 2 years since I last bought a car there. Partly due to fees - the auction houses are really stinging the private buyer. A £10k car will cost you well over £500 extra in fees before you get the keys....this is going to make a serious dent in an potential savings you can make. The trade buyers pay fees at a tiny rate in comparison

If you want a 4/5 year old high miler in average condition and are willing to take a punt on the mechanical condition then there are still bargains to be had.
However, if you are after what the industry call 'prime stock' ie cars that are less than 3 years old (ie still in warranty) and in good condition with genuine histories then there you are going to have a hard time..

I have an up to date CAP black book, so for every sale, I researched all the prices on the lots I was interested in ahead of time, and virtually all the cars that were potentials for me went for either very top whack book price or over. Even more surprising is that when you look at Auto Trader and ebay, the same cars seem to be available for similar prices or less from traders.....

Prime example - I went to Manheim Bruntingthorpe last week and watched a 2012(61) Grand Scenic 1.5Dci Dynamique TomTom with 6k miles go through at £11,300. With fees that would have cost me £11,800 and I've still got to get it home, and don't have 100% guarantee on the condition or get to see the service book in the flesh. I would have gone to £11k for it tops.

Instead, I bought today an identical car spec wise, except that its newer 2012(12) and with 7k miles, from a franchised dealer all in for £11,250. CAP indicates that the auction price on that car would be £11,100 before fees.

At the last auction, I plucked up the courage to chat to a trade buyer that had seen me there a few times. Turns out he worked for a major dealership chain. He told me that they make virtually no margin on used cars now, a few hundred quid per unit at most. Their entire business model is now built around finance, warranties and extras. Which means if you are a cash buyer, there is virtually no reason at all to buy from auctions...this seems to explain what I have seen but makes me sad on the state of the industry some how....

Sorry that this post has been a bit of a ramble!

Not at all, interesting

[xs2man]

Yes, very interesting.

I too am no stranger to buying cars at auction. Having bought several cars at auction in the past. I agree about auction house fees, although I feel they have always been quite steep.

My latest daily beater was bought at auction in fact. Didn't do so much research into prices mind you, I had around £1k to spend, and wanted a decent diesel. That was my only real requirements.

I did get a good look at the service book before-hand however. And a good look around the car. Of course, I was 2 hours early for the auction, but only because I had visited 2 other auctions that day, and this one was on the way home, but a lot later in the day. So I had time.

There are bargains to be had, for sure, but I too was surprised at the prices some of the motors were getting. Quashquais (or however they are spelled), looked particularly strong at the auctions I was at. Among other motors. Even the 3 series looked good, and made me think seriously about putting my 335d through one. I'm almost sure I would have got at least my px price at auction. More if the right buyer was there.

[gIzzE]

I have found that I have got more for my cars by calling group buyers when selling than I was asking for them privately.