[Sniz]

Originally Posted by vase330

Not being able to run at all is more like it. You are tuned and its like you walk around with a hot chic all day long yet no love for you. Frustrating..

lol, well said, I myself stay away from VA roads....more love up here in MD

[bubbletea 4 me]

Originally Posted by cn555ic

Well from what I have known of Fotios335i he has been with the JB platform for as long as I know him on the forum...He basically has gone through every stage of the JB tune evolution, and for him to say that he feels there is a significant difference compared to the JB3, wouldn't that be enough to give evidence that there is a drastic difference for you to understand?

I'm sure they feel diff but since i've never driven proceed tuned car, i can't form my own conclusion - which at the end of the day is most important to .. ME!!

a car is not faster just because if "feels" faster. Butt dyno is in no way measure of performance. a good example is when i switch from my AA xede to JB3, i thought JB3 was slow at first - why? cuz Xede is a torq monster down low (those who owned it can testify to that) and JB3 power delivery is soo different too smooth i thought.

From all the dynos and drag times we have seen up to this point, you can't deny that JB3 cars are just as powerful and run as fast (and many times, more poweful on dynos and faster on tracks) so in this case, it all comes down to personal prefrence, am i right? power delivery and driving experience is very diff im sure and it could very well be more to my liking, but until i try it, i can't say that. Also, how can one said one tune is better than the other when #'s speak for themselves, which are pretty equal both ways.

i think most chose JB right off the bat because of cost, and most who have dealt with Terry knows he is a great guy with great customer service - those are things that people also look at... not just how much whp diff.

i never dealt with Shiv before but i'm sure he is a pleant guy to work with since many of you have proceed and swears by it.

Sniz - i'll hit you up and maybe we can get a proceed V3 guy to switch cars with me and we can all test it out oh and there is a dyno day coming up, let's get some proceed guys to come. the last one we had, all JBs..

[bubbletea 4 me]

Originally Posted by pdjafari

hey bro, should we switch over to the 'darkside'??

i don't call these things switching to dark side..lol. we all want to get the tune that suites us the best.. again, like i said on the last post - most can agree that both tunes are pretty close performance-wise, then the rest just comes down to your preference. i would love to try out the diff tunes and experience the potential of our engin .. it has nothing to do with been a fan boy on either side.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by bubbletea 4 me

I'm sure they feel diff but since i've never driven proceed tuned car, i can't form my own conclusion - which at the end of the day is most important to .. ME!!

From all the dynos and drag times we have seen up to this point, you can't deny that JB3 cars are just as powerful and run as fast (and many times, more poweful on dyno and faster on track) so in this case, it all comes down to personal prefrence, am i right? power delivery and driving experience is very diff im sure and it could very well be more to my liking, but until i try it, i can't say that. Also, how can one said one tune is better than the other when #'s speak for themselves, which are pretty equal both ways.

i think most chose JB right off the bat because of cost, and most who have dealt with Terry knows he is a great guy with great customer service - those are things that people also look at... not just how much whp diff.

i never dealt with Shiv before but i'm sure he is a pleant guy to work with since many of you have proceed and swears by it.

Sniz - i'll hit you up and maybe we can get a proceed V3 guy to switch cars with me and we can all test it out oh and there is a dyno day coming up, let's get some proceed guys to come. the last one we had, all JBs..

Please don't read the following as jb3 bashing. It's not.

Ironically, the JB3's weakness (no active timing control) is also it's greatest strength. Since it rides the factory knock sensor under boost, the DME brings ignition advance right up to the knock threshold. This often yields max power on the dyno where rpm ramp up is slow and steady, allowing the knock control system to effectively "stay on top of things." But (and there is always a "but") this approach results in inconsistency on the road (where engine load/rpm rise varies dramatically) and compromised power response during transients. Which makes sense since no knock control system designed to work like that (continual trimming of timing under boost)

And on the drag strip, when race gas is used, you can pretty much rule out knock. As such, the JB3 will perform at max stock timing and make great power. It's no surprise that a PROcede race gas map has a zero'd out timing table. So in that situation, the JB3 will perform very well. Especially above 5000rpm (ie, drag racing) where throttle closure isn't much of an issue.

But those conditions aren't what you drive in 99% of the time. Most people use pump gas on a day to day basis. And they also drive below 5000rpm most of the time with varying torque demands/throttle angles. So using dyno results and selective 1/4 mile times to demonstrate all aspects of the "complete" driving experience is going to lead you astray.

Which is what many (mote, fotios, rixst3r, tmr, nlowell, etc,.) have now experienced first-hand when going from JB3 to PROcede. And I hope many more will experience this in the very near future. The differences between the two tunes aren't subtle. And I'm confident that anyone who tries both won't have any question in mind which one does the better job. And I'm going to try to make it very easy for those those who are truly interested in getting the best driving experience to witness this for themselves.

NeverToond-- You made some great points and I'm going to do something along those lines

shiv

[NeverToond]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Which is what many have now experienced first-hand. And I hope many more will experience this in the very near future. The differences between the two tunes aren't subtle. And I'm confident that anyone who tries both won't have any question in mind which one does the better job. And I'm going to try to make it very easy for those those who are truly interested in getting the best driving experience to witness this for themselves.

NeverToond-- You made some great points and I'm going to do something along those lines

shiv

I live pretty close to where you operate, and I'd be happy to help with a test.

At the end of the day, I want to be the poor deluded bastard that could win against any car I try to pull on and the only reason I didn't win is because I didn't try. No happy face.

At the end of the week, I want my car to be as fun as possible. Today I disabled all the traction nannies right before I launched onto an onramp. I got some smoke. That was fun.

Fun is good.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by NeverToond

I live pretty close to where you operate, and I'd be happy to help with a test.

At the end of the day, I want to be the poor deluded bastard that could win against any car I try to pull on and the only reason I didn't win is because I didn't try. No happy face.

At the end of the week, I want my car to be as fun as possible. Today I disabled all the traction nannies right before I launched onto an onramp. I got some smoke. That was fun.

Fun is good.

Sounds good. PM me your contact info and I'll call you sometime this week. I'm thinking about offering this 'competitive discount' deal for those who meet the following requirements:

1) Proof of previous tune. Either in the form of a printed invoice or cc bill faxed to us. Gotta make sure they actually have had previous tunes (Jb3 or Dinan flash). Making sure that they are the original purchaser of the tune would also rule out a lot of possible issues.

2) Post count greater than 100 and a join date older than 6 months. This should rule out banned people, suspicious accounts or disingenuous reviews. Nothing is more irritating that fake reviews.

3) Agreement not to resell the product for a profit. Maybe we can make special versions of the procede that can only be used for testing/comparison purpose.

And whatever else we can think of just to make sure everything is legit. Suggestions welcome

Shiv

[GAMEOVR]

Originally Posted by NeverToond

This is not the best analogy. Windows vs. Mac is in some ways software vs. software but since you can't run Mac OSX on a non-Apple computer, you're really comparing one hardware platform vs. another (even if they're really the same platform).

In this case, we have the same hardware and manufacturer platform, but two different software packages. The hardware is the N54 and it's ECU. The Vishnu and JB3 piggyback tunes are hardware in that they are boxes you install in your car, but at the end of the day what they really are is software, and that's what you're paying for.

Software companies offer what is known as "competitive upgrades". They do this because they realize that it's really no skin off their backs if they offer their software at a little above cost (still a profit) for owners of competitive software. The worst that could happen is that users pay them to try their software then go back to what they were using, and the upside is that the users could like their product better and become permanent customers.

JB3 owners that might be happy with their tune but curious about something else are very unlikely to put down a thousand bucks just to see if they'll like it better. Likewise, a happy Procede owner is unlikely to spend $600 just to try something else. This is why it's fairly uncommon to see long-time owners of one tune coming over to another. This is especially true when all dyno numbers seem to be roughly equivalent.

Anyone offering a one-time competitive upgrade to their product has nothing to lose and everything to gain, especially if they truly believe in their product (but not if they don't). If Vishnu can sell their product for a $20 profit to the owner of BMS product, then they have made a $20 profit that they wouldn't otherwise have made, and the possible upside is a new customer for life. Same goes for BMS.

I have a JB3 and I love it, but I didn't buy it for religious reasons. I would personally jump at the chance to buy a V3 for a little above cost, then be required to pay a bit more for the next software update than a 'non-upgrader' would.

Actually you can run OSX on a non-apple computer.. google up some stuff :-) They have a website dedicated to that. If you hang around newegg, you can build your own computer with window based parts and load up OSX and I heard it runs great.. Now a days a mac can run windows, and from what I see even better than an windows computer.. for some reason.

I hear you on that tho, it's about the same thing (maybe a few features/aggressiveness off) but why spend double the price a new toon, just for something different. You make good points, but at the end of the day it's his product :-) Terry could of came out with a similar price and everyone could of been in the same market You could also sell the JB3 and dish out another 300$ and get rev2 or so... To be honest, I just got mine and haven't installed but have been doing a lot of research with a lot of tunes (sstt, AA, jb1, dinan-all owned) and now trying something different, this stuff can really get addicting... I'll have my review up soon. Just waiting for the DPs to come in

[i2iSTUDIOS]

I really would consider getting one or trying Procede out but I won't. They way the vendors interact gives a interesting look on their products.

[GAMEOVR]

Originally Posted by i2iSTUDIOS

I really would consider getting one or trying Procede out but I won't. They way the vendors interact gives a interesting look on their products.

I think it's great that vendors interact on their product. Look at it this way, without vendors interacting we would never have any tech. reviews from them since they do spend their time analyzing the car.

[FotiosF90M5]

Shiv stated a good point. How often are most of you drag racing or using race fuel. I can assume for the majority its very rarely. In this case its about having all the great power these tunes provide but at the same time have oem bmw drivability with over 400 crank hp. Thats where the procede shines.There are no compromises. You have awesome power and oem drivability. It feels as though it was created by bmw engineers. The guys that create the cars we love soo much. Thats how good the power delivery of this tune is.The power is simply astonishing as well. perfect. I cant wait to try new maps now so I can have a choice with the remote. If you guys drive highway miles a lot too your fuel economy will get a nice bump up.

[enrita]

i Experience OEM drivability with JB3 too on pump gas, its actually smoother than OEM, dont know what you guys are talking about... its all a placebo effect dictated by the tune love. (and yes i have tried Procede cars as well).

[bubbletea 4 me]

you guys all make a valid point here and i'm always open to try out new things, but like Nevertoon said, most won't try both just because the cost factor of buying both. I'll look for a local person with a RAV I or II and try it out - that way i can determin whether it's worth switching.

again, proceed may feel better for some but how much is that worth? if one already has a JB3 - switching to proceed may not make alot of economic sense (sorry, that word is on everyone's month these days...lol) since both perform very well. i'll try it out and if it is mostly to my liking there is no reason why i wont get one

[FotiosF90M5]

Originally Posted by enrita

i Experience OEM drivability with JB3 too on pump gas, its actually smoother than OEM, dont know what you guys are talking about... its all a placebo effect dictated by the tune love. (and yes i have tried Procede cars as well).

tune love?? Im been with jb products forever. you have no idea what your talking about. Procede's power delivery is a lot smoother. simple fact. Have you tried procede rev 2?

[enrita]

Originally Posted by fotios335i

tune love?? Im been with jb products forever. you have no idea what your talking about. Procede's power delivery is a lot smoother. simple fact. Have you tried procede rev 2?

i wasnt referring about you or your post, just talking in general.

[FotiosF90M5]

Originally Posted by enrita

i wasnt referring about you or your post, just talking in general.

there are fan boys of both tunes for sure. close minded followers. Its annoying. sorry if my post came off as rude.

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by fotios335i

there are fan boys of both tunes for sure. close minded followers. Its annoying. sorry if my post came off as rude.

Lol.....it came across more fan-boyish than rude.

But I think the point being made is valid nonetheless.

It's not so much about overall power differences as it is about power delivery.

And that can only be experienced by on the road driving.

If Shiv can facilitate an easy way to sample the goods, then I hope what you are saying is that the results will speak for themselves and people can make their minds up based on personal experience rather than forum hype.

[OtherAggie]

Originally Posted by Ilma

If Shiv can facilitate an easy way to sample the goods, then I hope what you are saying is that the results will speak for themselves and people can make their minds up based on personal experience rather than forum hype.

+1,000,000 - I am ready to buy one or the other soon. If there was some way I could drive each one, it sure would make the decision easier!

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Ilma

Lol.....it came across more fan-boyish than rude.

But I think the point being made is valid nonetheless.

It's not so much about overall power differences as it is about power delivery.

And that can only be experienced by on the road driving.

If Shiv can facilitate an easy way to sample the goods, then I hope what you are saying is that the results will speak for themselves and people can make their minds up based on personal experience rather than forum hype.

How does this sound:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...1&postcount=22

Shiv

[cn555ic]

HeY SHiv I just Pmd...please reply when you have a chance!!!

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

How does this sound:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...1&postcount=22

Shiv

Now you're cooking with gas!

Sounds like a gamechanger to me.....lol

[SennaZ]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Suggestions welcome

Shiv

What about a "loaner" program where you give us, say, ten days to do a comparison after which time we can opt to buy a new unit, or return the loaner. You cut an invoice against a credit card to secure the return of the unit in a timely manner.

[bubbletea 4 me]

Originally Posted by SennaZ

What about a "loaner" program where you give us, say, ten days to do a comparison after which time we can opt to buy a new unit, or return the loaner. You cut an invoice against a credit card to secure the return of the unit in a timely manner.

+1 a program like this would be awsome. or maybe for a small fee to loan it for a # of days then we can either buy it off and pay the difference, or return the loaner. something like that would be even more appealing.