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      01-30-2008, 03:29 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by ages944 View Post
fragadellic, well written post. I mostly agree with what you say, but regarding 'going off the deep end', would you not agree that it's entirely too easy to attain a driver's license in this country?
Thanks, and yes, I agree with you. The test for a driver's license in the USA is a joke.
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      01-30-2008, 04:00 AM   #112
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Thank you for this post.....

If the car flew off at 100 mph, any idea what the top speed would have been? Obviously this nimrod started braking at some point....any educated guesses?
Good question. The brakes were probably applied first when the headlights began to illuminate the trees off the end of the runway. Was there some indication from instrumentation in the wreck that they were going 100 at the time of impact? I didnt' read all the news website pages. Sometimes in aviation accidents, analog gauges are either frozen in their final position or have witness marks of the needle position on the dial faces from impact forces. If they only started braking where the skidmarks showed up, it was probably way over 100mph. What's the top speed of an M5, and how much road does it take to reach that? There are people posting 114-115mph 1,320ft trap speeds with supposedly stock M5's, so I think 140-150 is certainly possible in 4x that distance.

I did read one of the news articles that said alcohol was almost certainly a factor. If that's true, the reaction time to brake once the danger was realized was probably increased significantly. A couple of sources say that it takes about 3/4 of a second for a very alert driver to realize they need to brake, and another 3/4 of a second for the brain to move the foot to the brake pedal and begin the braking action. So even with a sober driver, the car would have traveled more than a football field in the 1.5 seconds it took the driver to realize they had run out of runway. No doubt that an impaired driver would take significantly longer. According to one reference I found, impairment of basic driving skills and reaction time occurs with a BAC of 0.03%, with basic motor coordination impairment as early as 0.02%. I was pretty surprised at these numbers. In fact, the more I dig into this, the more disturbing it is.
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      01-30-2008, 04:12 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by jadeddjay View Post
atleast they didnt do this in the streets
funny thing is, had they done it on the streets, people would have been all like "idiots should have taken it to the airstrip..."

the moral of the story is, if ur gonna crash, ur gonna crash
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      01-30-2008, 05:17 AM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fragadellic View Post
Good question. The brakes were probably applied first when the headlights began to illuminate the trees off the end of the runway. Was there some indication from instrumentation in the wreck that they were going 100 at the time of impact? I didnt' read all the news website pages. Sometimes in aviation accidents, analog gauges are either frozen in their final position or have witness marks of the needle position on the dial faces from impact forces. If they only started braking where the skidmarks showed up, it was probably way over 100mph. What's the top speed of an M5, and how much road does it take to reach that? There are people posting 114-115mph 1,320ft trap speeds with supposedly stock M5's, so I think 140-150 is certainly possible in 4x that distance.

I did read one of the news articles that said alcohol was almost certainly a factor. If that's true, the reaction time to brake once the danger was realized was probably increased significantly. A couple of sources say that it takes about 3/4 of a second for a very alert driver to realize they need to brake, and another 3/4 of a second for the brain to move the foot to the brake pedal and begin the braking action. So even with a sober driver, the car would have traveled more than a football field in the 1.5 seconds it took the driver to realize they had run out of runway. No doubt that an impaired driver would take significantly longer. According to one reference I found, impairment of basic driving skills and reaction time occurs with a BAC of 0.03%, with basic motor coordination impairment as early as 0.02%. I was pretty surprised at these numbers. In fact, the more I dig into this, the more disturbing it is.
The 100 mph is from another post over on MBworld since the car was airborne for 200 feet and still hit a tree 15 feet high.

The M5 can easily hit its governed speed of 155 mph on that runway..... People have no appreciation of the braking distances required at very high speeds like nimrod was doing.
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      01-30-2008, 09:37 AM   #115
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From local accounts there were skidmarks at the north end of the strip indicating the driver was attempting to turn and drifted off the runway sideways. The car impacted the tree sideways. My brother who is an aerospace engineer at Lockheed Martin calculated the impact speed to be roughly 70 mph, with a vertical descent of 45 mph. I am familier with this airstrip because I relocated the taxiway lights when JT's house was built.
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      01-30-2008, 12:10 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by boostdf350 View Post
From local accounts there were skidmarks at the north end of the strip indicating the driver was attempting to turn and drifted off the runway sideways. The car impacted the tree sideways. My brother who is an aerospace engineer at Lockheed Martin calculated the impact speed to be roughly 70 mph, with a vertical descent of 45 mph. I am familier with this airstrip because I relocated the taxiway lights when JT's house was built.

Thanks...is the vector 70 mph or is the horizontal speed 70 mph?

Can you ask your brother to calculate the speed when the car left the ground?
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      01-30-2008, 10:28 PM   #117
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The car was slowing as it left the runway but as it began to descend it began to gain speed. 70 mph is the square root of the sum of the squares, or the determinant.
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      01-31-2008, 12:24 PM   #118
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hoorible. Why must people act like that? The kids ruined their families forever. What a shame. Having a child now I dont know how I would live if he were to die.
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      02-04-2008, 11:47 PM   #119
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BMW M5 doing at least 120 mph

http://www.ocala.com/article/20080204/BREAKING_NEWS/261837791/1053/BREAKING_NEWS





FHP: BMW traveling at least 120 mph before crash at airport


BY FRED HIERS
Star-Banner

OCALA The high-performance BMW carrying five young men toward their deaths on Jan. 26 was roaring down Greystone Airport at a speed of at least 120 mph when it left the end of the runway, sailed 200 feet through the air and slammed into a fence and three trees.

That was the conclusion listed in a Florida Highway Patrol report released Monday about the single-vehicle crash.

FHP spokesman Lt. Mike Burroughs said the investigation continues. His agency is interviewing dozens of people who potentially have information about the crash.

Authorities say Joshua D. Ammirato, 18, was driving the BMW M5 down the 1.5 mile-long airstrip, which is inside Jumbolair Aviation Estates in Anthony.

Burroughs said 120 mph was the minimum speed the car was traveling before the driver hit the brakes. He braked for 2 to 3 seconds and the car veered sideways.

The vehicle rotated clockwise as it left the end of the paved runway, overturned and went airborne.

It sailed over an 85-foot dip toward trees 200 feet away.

The car first struck a wire fence and tree, according to the report. The right side then struck a second tree, shearing the vehicle in two. Then the rear section struck a third tree. The driver and all four passengers were ejected, according to the report.

The vehicle's pieces and passengers all came to rest in a vacant lot in the 1400 block of Northeast 95th Street.

Meanwhile, the Star-Banner has learned that the Florida Division of Alcoholic Beverages and Tobacco has joined the investigation.

"The Division of Alcoholic Beverages and Tobacco was asked by FHP to aid in their investigation," said the agency's spokeswoman, Alexis Antonacci.

She said she could not comment further, because of the ongoing investigation.

The agency's job is to regulate those who produce or sell alcohol or tobacco and assist law enforcement agencies whose investigations involve either of those products.

Antonacci said the division, which is part of the Florida Department of Professional and Business Regulations, has in the past assisted other law enforcement agencies with auto crashes that involved alcohol.

Burroughs said FHP still awaits a toxicology report, which will indicate whether the driver had been drinking. Any information the Division of Alcoholic Beverages and Tobacco agency finds would be used to "bolster" that toxicology report.

"Since this crash involved a driver and passengers all under 21 years old, which is the legal age to consume alcoholic beverages, rumors (about alcohol consumption) must be filtered appropriately," Burroughs said.

"We are taking a proactive approach and applying sound investigative techniques should toxicology reports indicate that alcohol consumption by minors might have contributed to the accident," he said. "If our investigation revealed that alcohol was obtained by minors, we would request that Alcoholic Beverages and Tobacco assist us."

Previously, Burroughs said that only the remains of the driver would be tested for alcohol. Now he says testing could also include the passengers: Jacob James Casey, 19; James Devon Hime, 19; Dustin J. Dawe, 19; and Isaac Rubin, 20.

The $85,000 car belonged to Ammirato's father, Santo.

The report indicated that Joshua Ammirato and the front passenger, Hime, were wearing seatbelts. The other three were in the rear seat and were not wearing seatbelts.

The report also said there was only one car involved in the wreck. There have been rumors of other cars at the scene at the time of the crash.

"We have solid evidence that indicates there was only one car involved," Burroughs said, although he would not discuss the nature of that evidence.

Burroughs declined to comment on rumors that there is a pre-crash videotape of the car on the Greystone runway.

Meanwhile, James Hime, father of passenger James Devon Hime, said the specifics of the crash no longer concerned him.

Hime, 54, of Orlando, said his only concern now was that the crash might convince other young drivers to not drive dangerously.

"Stay close to your children and know where they are," he said. "My greatest goal now is to reach these other children."

Hime is now represented by two Orlando lawyers who specialize in wrongful death cases, including auto accidents.

"I don't so much blame the child (Joshua Ammirato) as the parent," Hime said.

The crash report was not released to the public last week, although it was completed. Burroughs said FHP officials first wanted to give it to the parents of the crash victims and discuss the document with them.

But Hime said he didn't have much use for the crash report now.

"I don't have nay questions about that," he said. "It's just statistics."

Fred Hiers can be released at fred.hiers@starbanner.com and 352-867-4157.
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      02-05-2008, 12:03 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
"I don't so much blame the child (Joshua Ammirato) as the parent," Hime said.
+1 What many of us have been saying. Irresponsible to give an 18-yo kid a performance car. And yet, even if you are the responsible parent, your kid may be a passenger with some other kid whose parents think an $85K 500HP car is the way to show them they love him. The whole story is so depressing.
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      02-05-2008, 12:48 PM   #121
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Kids?

What beats me is why 20 year-olds are referred to as "kids" - aren't they legally adults? When does a person become responsible for his/her actions - 30, 40?

I mean, yes, I agree, its ultimately parents' fault, but they failed probably like 10 years ago. Come on - at 20 people can have their own families and live separately from their parents - it's too late for curfews.

Also, what's up with all this talk about 20-somethings not being able to handle a BMW? I know guys fighting wars at the same age, being entrusted with FAR more powerful and dangerous machinery, and they do just fine - so it's not the age, its what's in your head. And their parents are often not even allowed to know where their "kids" are. Are those parents a failure too?

Anyway, my point is that it makes more sense to teach kids being responsible for their actions and use their brain to make good decisions while they are still kids, legally and physiologically. It's much more effective than monitoring their every step till they get gray hair.
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      02-05-2008, 01:32 PM   #122
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+1 on MaxL's comments.

The untimely death of these young adults is tragic for all...

All the parents may be partly to blame, but keep in mind...when was the last time you said "NO" and no matter what..ur 18 yo or 19 yo did it anyway?...and you as a parent definitely had no idea...we have all done things in the past that we have kept from our parents...

I know all the parents are agonizing and in grief...as I would be too if something like this happened to my 18 yo...

I have read on too many boards that the parents are being criticized extremely....I would have taken the keys away and said "off limits" and dont be out past 1am...however, what's to really stop someone at this age from making these types of decisions...NOTHING...you cant CHAIN ur teen up in the house anymore...though I wish I could sometimes..believe me...

it hurts every parent when ur young adult teenager makes mistakes and they dont understand the morals...we do our BEST as parents...that's all our children would want...and we pray that they'll always be OK....

DAMN...I'm feelin for the parents...god bless to all...
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      02-05-2008, 01:32 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxL View Post
What beats me is why 20 year-olds are referred to as "kids" - aren't they legally adults? When does a person become responsible for his/her actions - 30, 40?

I mean, yes, I agree, its ultimately parents' fault, but they failed probably like 10 years ago. Come on - at 20 people can have their own families and live separately from their parents - it's too late for curfews.

Also, what's up with all this talk about 20-somethings not being able to handle a BMW? I know guys fighting wars at the same age, being entrusted with FAR more powerful and dangerous machinery, and they do just fine - so it's not the age, its what's in your head. And their parents are often not even allowed to know where their "kids" are. Are those parents a failure too?

Anyway, my point is that it makes more sense to teach kids being responsible for their actions and use their brain to make good decisions while they are still kids, legally and physiologically. It's much more effective than monitoring their every step till they get gray hair.
These guys were under 20, but yeah, I consider most 20-year olds "kids." I'm talking level of maturity -- sounds like the same as you are saying. I hear your point about setting a good foundation.

As for fighting wars, I'm former military, and believe me, lots of the newly-enlisted kids are just that. They would be (or are) just as foolish with a performance car as these kids were. Unless their 1SG is standing nearby, they act like the dumb kids they are.
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      02-06-2008, 06:19 AM   #124
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I agree BK. I am in the military and, while people who are 18, 19 or 20 are indeed given very powerful vehicles and weapons, they are trained, trained and trained again and then watched very closely by the people who are in charge of them to make sure they don't screw it up. If that person then screws up (like, say, dropping their loaded weapon and having a negligent discharge), they get hammered appropriately.
It is all about preparing someone for the responsibility you will be giving them. Does just having a driver's license prepare a person for driving an M5? I would say no. I don't think it prepares them to drive anything to be honest. It makes them legal though, and that is what everyone seems to be hung up on.
Legality. The bread and butter of America. Legality does not always provide the answer for what is right and what is wrong. Putting a car like an M5 in the hands of an 18 year old who is going to party with his friends is like putting your son in the middle of a Nympho's With Aids Convention sans condoms.
The kid was wrong (I have an 18 year old, so I will call them kids)...he willfully jumped past his abilities and put the lives of others at risk and killed them. The father was wrong...part of being a parent is matching personal abilities (emotional, mental, physical, spiritual) to the tension on the reigns. The passengers were wrong. Do you think any of them didn't know that they were going to do a dangerous manuever? Do you think they were strapped down and not allowed out of the car? They should have not bowed to peer pressure.
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      02-06-2008, 06:25 AM   #125
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As much as we would all love to sit here and talk about all the wrong things that happened to these kids, all the wrong decisions the parents made, the friends made, the drivers made... the discussion is inherently pointless.

It's obvious what happened was wrong.

I'm sorry for these kids, I'm sorry for their parents, and I'm sorry for their community.

Let's all learn from this and not make the same mistakes. Let's pray for them and their families, and stop pointing fingers.
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      02-06-2008, 08:31 AM   #126
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As much as we would all love to sit here and talk about all the wrong things that happened to these kids, all the wrong decisions the parents made, the friends made, the drivers made... the discussion is inherently pointless.

It's obvious what happened was wrong.

I'm sorry for these kids, I'm sorry for their parents, and I'm sorry for their community.

Let's all learn from this and not make the same mistakes. Let's pray for them and their families, and stop pointing fingers.

This is an internet DISCUSSION board the last time I checked.

The driver was an idiot. The father is an idiot.
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      02-06-2008, 09:56 AM   #127
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This is an internet DISCUSSION board the last time I checked.

The driver was an idiot. The father is an idiot.
Perhaps, he trusted his kid "this time". Maybe he was an idiot for doing that. But, its hard not to when you love your kid. Maybe the kid took the keys without the dad knowing. A lot of things could have happened.
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      02-06-2008, 10:05 PM   #128
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Perhaps, he trusted his kid "this time". Maybe he was an idiot for doing that. But, its hard not to when you love your kid. Maybe the kid took the keys without the dad knowing. A lot of things could have happened.

No one doubts the love of any father but this father is WEAK if he cannot seperate love from doing the right thing. This was the enabling part.

The execution part is the idiot son driving off the runway.
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      02-07-2008, 12:21 AM   #129
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Ignoring wind resistance, it takes 2.3 seconds to fall 85 feet. In 2.3 seconds, you will need to be traveling horizontally at approximately 60 MPH the entire time you are in air. Since there is wind resistance, the vehicle had to be going faster than 60 MPH. You would also have to figure in any effects of the ground at the end of the runway if it were to form a ramp.
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      02-12-2008, 05:09 AM   #130
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this is just such horrible news
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