[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by e90sexion

driving manual takes 1 hour.
pros and cons will be only you can drive it in the family, well your dad might as well if you live with your parents

6 people in the family - 6 hours to teach them all - problem solved and there is stil time for cocktails.

CA

[Vroom vroom]

Heh. My moms been able to drive stick since she was young. She was born in England.

[John 070]

Originally Posted by crzylildude

I learned how to drive on an 18-wheeler sand & gravel truck .... It is a piece of cake!

It isn't the same, the BMW is easier to drive. But as many have pointed out, there are no CONS to a stick.

[John 070]

Originally Posted by MM33

Dual Clutch transmissions are FAR nicer than Manuals....

They're better on a track, not nicer in any way, shape, or form. For day to day driving they're automatics. When people say pros and cons of stick and auto, dual clutch is in the latter category.

[Tom K.]

Originally Posted by JamJay

Being from the UK where 'stick' is king, I had to LOL at this thread.

How come the U.S got so comfortable with auto-trans? The legendary muscle cars were all MT right? Do you even have a choice of transmission when learning to drive with a driving school? Strange how two of the most western countries went in opposite directions here, maybe it's because you have such a vast landscape and AT is just easier for cruising around/lazy .

Actually, the Chrysler 3 speed Torqueflite was often the preferred tranny for many Mopar muscle cars, IIRC. It seems that from the advent of GM's Hydramatic in 1940, US manufacturers poured money into both development and marketing of automatics at the expense of conventional gearboxes. In the 1950's GM never even offered overdrive, so if you wanted a sensible higher gear for cruising in your Oldsmobile or Pontiac, you had to either specifiy a final drive ratio too high for decent acceleration or opt for the 4 speed Hydramatic.

When learning to drive many years ago as a teenager, I had the good fortune to pick a driving school which provided a stick shift V-8 for lessons, although I admit to taking my driving test (primarily a parallel parking test in those days) on an automatic car.

I suspect also that the increased traffic density in our cities and suburbs over the last 40 years or so have resulted in fewer and fewer cars available here with manual transmissions; thus the inability of so many Americans to properly operate a 3 pedal machine. But before you gloat too much, our automobile electrical systems were far superior to those from the Prince of Darkness, Lucas.

And as my wife does not drive a stick, she drives her car and I drive my BMWs - an excellent arrangement for both of us.

Tom

[captainaudio]

So once again a thread with a simple question becomes an AT vs MT thread.

Some people need to lean to say I prefer a ______ (fill in the blank) and stop carrying on like your transmission choice was an edict from the Almighty.

[whoosh]

Originally Posted by MM33

Dual Clutch transmissions are FAR nicer than Manuals....and Manuals are far nicer than Automatics. As simple as that...there's a reason why race cars and supercars have dual clutch transmissions; it's not only for speed...it's also for feel, control, and enjoyment.

BMW, Audi, and Porsche have really great dual clutch gearboxes; as does the Mitsubishi Evo and Nissan GT-R....If you haven't driven a car with a dual clutch gearbox; you're missing out. I would take one instantly over a regular manual and will do so on my next car.

Racecars have them for speed, period. Supercars have them for a variety of reasons, "feel, control, and enjoyment" as you stated. But I would say that these elements only apply when compared to a regular automatic transmission. You get less feel and control of the vehicle with a DCT than you will with a manual, provided you're adept at operating a manual transmission. What qualifies as enjoyment is always up to each particular driver.

I have driven Porsches with PDK. When it came time to order my iS, I got the 6MT. This choice was mainly because I feel the DCT will get boring once the novelty wears off, and I simply don't care enough about shaving seconds off a lap or drag strip time to have the paddles. I also shudder to think about repair costs down the line for the DCT clutches, whereas a regular clutch replacement can be accomplished in one's own garage if they have the tools and mechanical aptitude to do so.

[derrick603]

Learning how to drive a manual isn't difficult. My first manual car was a 1998 Z3, purchased new and driven home by my father. :-) He taught me how to drive it in a couple of hours and I drove it 50 miles to work the next day.

As for AT vs MT, after having driven two MT cars for 10 years and 200k miles, I now drive an AT 335i, and I honestly don't miss the manual that much. Driving enjoyment is not defined as an extra pedal and a shifter that moves in an H-pattern. When I was younger, I was also of the hardcore MT fan mentality, but now that I'm older, I can appreciate both.

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by whoosh

Racecars have them for speed, period. Supercars have them for a variety of reasons, "feel, control, and enjoyment" as you stated. But I would say that these elements only apply when compared to a regular automatic transmission. You get less feel and control of the vehicle with a DCT than you will with a manual, provided you're adept at operating a manual transmission. What qualifies as enjoyment is always up to each particular driver.

I have driven Porsches with PDK. When it came time to order my iS, I got the 6MT. This choice was mainly because I feel the DCT will get boring once the novelty wears off, and I simply don't care enough about shaving seconds off a lap or drag strip time to have the paddles. I also shudder to think about repair costs down the line for the DCT clutches, whereas a regular clutch replacement can be accomplished in one's own garage if they have the tools and mechanical aptitude to do so.

I could argue that a paddle shifted transmission gives you more control over the vehicle than a manual because:
1. You can keep both hands on the wheel at all times
2. You can left foot brake.

CA

[John 070]

Originally Posted by derrick603

When I was younger, I was also of the hardcore MT fan mentality, but now that I'm older, I can appreciate both.

What is there to appreciate about an AT? The thrill of putting it into D, and back into P?

[whoosh]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

I could argue that a paddle shifted transmission gives you more control over the vehicle than a manual because:
1. You can keep both hands on the wheel at all times
2. You can left foot brake.

CA

In terms of the control aspect, I think both of these would be valid arguments in a track or competition setting, with item two being very limited in use and mainly down to driver preference. There's no question that a dual-clutch is ideal for racing applications. But that's not what we're talking about here. The average person driving an automatic isn't putting the "extra" hand on the wheel. It's being used to tune the radio, mess with iDrive, or sip their latte. And the last thing I want any of these folks doing is trying to left foot brake.

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by John 070

What is there to appreciate about an AT? The thrill of putting it into D, and back into P?

What is there to appreciate about driving a 335i with an MT at 40% of its capabilites on public roads. Pretending that it is really a sports car and that you are really a race car driver.


CA

[Saintor]

An automatic transmission is my second choice.

However, my reality tells me that it is the only viable choice.

BMW still builds the best automatic transmission INTERFACE sub 60-70K$. The interface makes a BIG difference and Audi (or others in category) just doesn't get it as right).

[Dozhdbog]

Pros: Other stick owners will include you in their cabal of smug elitism
Cons: Just like owning a BMW raised your douchebag quotient, so will owning a stick

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by whoosh

In terms of the control aspect, I think both of these would be valid arguments in a track or competition setting, with item two being very limited in use and mainly down to driver preference. There's no question that a dual-clutch is ideal for racing applications. But that's not what we're talking about here. The average person driving an automatic isn't putting the "extra" hand on the wheel. It's being used to tune the radio, mess with iDrive, or sip their latte. And the last thing I want any of these folks doing is trying to left foot brake.

I was driving MTs before a large number of people on this forum were born. I have never had a problem tuning the radio, adjusting the climate contol etc. Let's get real, with an MT what percentage of the time is your hand off the wheel because you are shifting gears.

CA

[derrick603]

Originally Posted by John 070

What is there to appreciate about an AT? The thrill of putting it into D, and back into P?

Really? You can't see the positives of an AT in a car that is used primary as a daily driver?

[Bob Shiftright]

My wife learned how to drive a manual on her dad's IH tractor. She's not bad at it, but she prefers not to drive a stick because she likes to, ummmm, "multitask". She drives her car, and I drive mine and we're both happy.

In Manhattan, I'd pick walking, the subway or a cab over driving a 335 with either an automatic or a manual transmission. I'm not sure how driving a BMW with either transmission at 1/3 its capacity on an interstate highway is any more fun than driving it at 1/9 it's capacity in urban traffic. Both suck in their own way.

A Honda Fit Sport is probably more suitable to an urban driving environment than a 335i. Still with a 5-speed manual. If I lived in Manhattan and needed to keep a car there, that's probably what I'd drive. I'd argue it's more fun to drive a slow car fast than it is to drive a fast car slow. At least a Fit would be operating at 1/2 it's capacity in both city traffic and interstate highway environments.

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by Bob Shiftright

My wife learned how to drive a manual on her dad's IH tractor. She's not bad at it, but she prefers not to drive a stick because she likes to, ummmm, "multitask". She drives her car, and I drive mine and we're both happy.

In Manhattan, I'd pick walking, the subway or a cab over driving a 335 with either an automatic or a manual transmission. I'm not sure how driving a BMW with either transmission at 1/3 its capacity on an interstate highway is any more fun than driving it at 1/9 it's capacity in urban traffic. Both suck in their own way.

A Honda Fit Sport is probably more suitable to an urban driving environment than a 335i. Still with a 5-speed manual. If I lived in Manhattan and needed to keep a car there, that's probably what I'd drive. I'd argue it's more fun to drive a slow car fast than it is to drive a fast car slow. At least a Fit would be operating at 1/2 it's capacity in both city traffic and interstate highway environments.

I agree with you about Manhattan driving. I use cabs and public transportation to get around in the city. Any (MT or AT) 335i with RFTs and sport suspension will be for all practical purposes undrivable in Manhattan.

CA

[whoosh]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

I was driving MTs before a large number of people on this forum were born. I have never had a problem tuning the radio, adjusting the climate contol etc. Let's get real, with an MT what percentage of the time is your hand off the wheel because you are shifting gears.

CA

I'm not sure... you were the one stating that paddles give more control due to having both hands on the wheel, which is the point to which my response was directed.

Referring to your earlier post, this has gone from pro/con of MT to the age-old debate of auto vs. manual.

I'm out...

[Bob Shiftright]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

I agree with you about Manhattan driving. I use cabs and public transportation to get around in the city. Any (MT or AT) 335i with RFTs and sport suspension will be for all practical purposes undrivable in Manhattan.

CA

Out of curiosity, if you were going for a pleasant weekend drive around Lime Rock, would you choose an E91 with an automatic transmission or something like a Caterham Seven or a Formula Vee?

Not which one would be quickest around the track, not which would be most pleasant to drive (or tow) from Manhattan to Connecticut, but which one do you think would be the most fun on a track?

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by Bob Shiftright

Out of curiosity, if you were going for a pleasant weekend drive around Lime Rock, would you choose an E91 with an automatic transmission or something like a Caterham Seven or a Formula Vee?

Not which one would be quickest around the track, not which would be most pleasant to drive (or tow) from Manhattan to Connecticut, but which one do you think would be the most fun on a track?

Good timing on that question. At this very moment I am in my 335i on the way to Lime Rock. When I get there I will be driving a Spec Miata with an MT.

I do not enjoy driving cars that are optimized for the track on the street.

CA

[Teufel_Hunden]

IMO, everyone should learn to drive a stick. Never know when you could end up in a situation where a manual is your only option. I made my son learn to drive a manual, and will do the same in a few years with my younger son.

Anyways - there is nothing better than driving a 6 speed MT!!