[scotw]

Saw another review today of the 123d and again, they loved it.

Just before I ordered my 320D, a chap I work with was trying to persuade to me go for the 325D, I could have dropped a couple of options and got one, so I was thinking about it pretty seriously.

But, in the end, the low power increase (over the ED320D) & poorer economy made me stick to my original choice. In fact the Efficient Dynamics stuff was a major factor in my decision. If I'd been buying 6 months ago I'd have plumped for the 325D. If there was a 323D, then it would have been a no-brainer.

So, have BMW killed the 325d? I did wonder that if it gets dropped next year that I might have ended up with a car that had poor residuals as people wouldn't want it. 3 years from now, who knows how much car tax we'll pay based on CO2.

[dxb335d]

I think you are right, they must just kill it off, but on the other hand, the 123d/ and the forthcoming 323d, is a 2.0 twin turbo where as the 325d is a 2.5 or 3.0 litre isnt it? so it might stay that little bit longer?!

[mjh93sa]

It's a difficult one as I think that the 325D and the hypothetical (at the moment) 323D would appeal to different people.

Although they put out about the same headline power figure I'll bet that the larger capacity of the 325D (3litre) gives it a flatter torque curve and so a more relaxed drive with more in gear flexibility. Equally the six cylinder engine will make it that much more quiet, smooth and refined. For somebody who isn't bothered about absolute fuel economy but is still budget conscious it is the entry level to six cylinder motoring in the diesel 3. As such it deserves it's place in the model line-up

However, a "323D" would be one hell of a proposition for anyone who wants good economy or is facing a company car tax bill. Enough torque to put most normal cars in the shade and excellent fuel economy to boot. It might not be as fast as a 325D given a peakier torque curve so a little less acceleration for the same revs, but I'll bet it wouldn't be more than a couple of tenths off. But who knows until they try it?

The 320d isn't the best selling BMW without reason. A "323D" could easily take that title.

[E92Fan]

Originally Posted by mjh93sa

It's a difficult one as I think that the 325D and the hypothetical (at the moment) 323D would appeal to different people.

...the six cylinder engine will make it that much more quiet, smooth and refined. For somebody who isn't bothered about absolute fuel economy but is still budget conscious it is the entry level to six cylinder motoring in the diesel 3. As such it deserves it's place in the model line-up

Couldn't agree more. There is something to be said for a 6 cylinder diesel - the refinement and more relaxed nature I think suits a 3 series, as opposed to a 1 series. The 1 is more compact, is more 'fun' theoretcially, so having a very punchy, slightly peaky 4-cylinder diesel suits its character more than that same engine being in a 3 series. The 3 series has grown up a lot in character over the last two iterations (with the 1 series taking up the mantle of small, or smaller, fun-driving cars). The entry-level 6cyl diesel is here to stay I think.

[Ulrikgm]

I guess the 325d is better for tuning because you can get it to 280bhp with just a chip. That will be hard with a 323d.

Regarding the torque curve I think the two turbos in the 323d will make it give max torque very early in the rev range like it is the case with the 335d.

[mikem]

Originally Posted by Ulrikgm

I guess the 325d is better for tuning because you can get it to 280bhp with just a chip. That will be hard with a 323d.

Regarding the torque curve I think the two turbos in the 323d will make it give max torque very early in the rev range like it is the case with the 335d.

The 325d can`t be mapped to any more than 240 hp, trust me. Max torque is available on a standard 325d at 1300 rpm (450 rpm lower than a 330d).

[Bumps]

Originally Posted by mikem

The 325d can`t be mapped to any more than 240 hp, trust me. Max torque is available on a standard 325d at 1300 rpm (450 rpm lower than a 330d).

But that's more power than a 330d. And the 330d has about 80lb/ft more torque, which will be across a similar rev range. And with 325ds at about £2.5K cheaper than 330ds at list price, then factor in a remap, the savvy buyer may well buy a 325d and remap it, all for about £2K less than the cost of a new 330d. That gives him/her leather and Nav with a discount thrown in. You're effectively getting the 3.0 litre d engine in the 325d, just in a lower state of tune. The newer engines are resistant to remapping, as has been discussed elsewhere. BMW can therefore introduce the "23d" and be surer that nobody can map it easily, whereas the "25d" can be, and it's thirstier and emits more CO2. So, I reckon the "23d" engine is paving the way for getting rid of the "25d", as the new engine will not be able to be mapped easily, and even if it can, most likely not past the 230bhp ish of the "30d", and it wil be considerably more economical. The "25d" is hardly any more economical than the "30d" anyway (probably none more so in the real world where you will rev it harder that the "30d" to get the same result, and use more fuel). The mapping issue clearly matters to BMW, or why would they go to so much trouble to make it so hard to remap their new engines? I think the "30d" will become the 'lower end' 6cyl diesel, as the 320d is already not too far off the 325d in real terms. The 323d would be a bit cheaper and would open up a whole new set of buyers I reckon.

The only people really potentially losing out on the 325d are BMW at the moment, and that won't happen for long IMHO.

[hmi1750]

I think the 320d will just go and be replaced with the 323d.

[Bumps]

Originally Posted by hmi1750

I think the 320d will just go and be replaced with the 323d.

But then you'd have the 323d with bigger 'headline' figures than the 325d. So which would be the base model? I know they will drive very differently but the model line up would go up the spout and BMW simply won't do that. They could use the "23d" engine and badge it 320d, but then you would have the problem of what to call it across the 1 series range then too. I think the 320d will stay as is, and the 325 will go. Don't know whether I'd put money on it though

[E92Fan]

What would you rather have though? A punchy 323d with a 4-cyl engine, or a more refined and equally as quick 325d with the 6-cyl engine?

For me it'd be the 325d - maybe I'm getting older (eek!) but I value the long-term refinement more than the initial punch and verve. Don't get me wrong, I love power and the feeling it gives (proper megalomaniac I am..!) and that's why I got a 335, but I'm more impressed overall with the smoothness of the car and how I can travel 800 miles in a day, totally relaxed, only stopping for petrol and sandwiches...

[Ulrikgm]

Originally Posted by mikem

The 325d can`t be mapped to any more than 240 hp, trust me. Max torque is available on a standard 325d at 1300 rpm (450 rpm lower than a 330d).

Whatever you say - but Hartge and ESS are doing it so I willtrust them instead. It is very close to being the same engine as found in the 330d even the gearbox is the same. I think BMW are saying that the 330d has variable turbo geometry and the 325d does not but I am starting to doubt that.

http://www.esstuning.com/default.asp...ubcat2=265&id=

http://www.hartge.de/e/bmw_motor_4344.html

Ulrik

[scotw]

What would you rather have though? A punchy 323d with a 4-cyl engine, or a more refined and equally as quick 325d with the 6-cyl engine?

Is it as simple as that? At cruising speeds I think there is not much in it, so for most people its not that big of a deal. However, with the EU breathing down their neck and making noises about average CO2, BMW need more low CO2 engines in their range.

I think we could see 318D,320D,323D as 4 cly engines, with the 330D & 335D toping the range as 6.

Of the other advanges as someone said is that the 325D can no longer be used as a cheap 330D with a remap, a 323D will be more resistant to remaping than the 325D

[mikem]

Originally Posted by Bumps

But that's more power than a 330d. And the 330d has about 80lb/ft more torque, which will be across a similar rev range. And with 325ds at about £2.5K cheaper than 330ds at list price, then factor in a remap, the savvy buyer may well buy a 325d and remap it, all for about £2K less than the cost of a new 330d. That gives him/her leather and Nav with a discount thrown in. You're effectively getting the 3.0 litre d engine in the 325d, just in a lower state of tune. The newer engines are resistant to remapping, as has been discussed elsewhere. BMW can therefore introduce the "23d" and be surer that nobody can map it easily, whereas the "25d" can be, and it's thirstier and emits more CO2. So, I reckon the "23d" engine is paving the way for getting rid of the "25d", as the new engine will not be able to be mapped easily, and even if it can, most likely not past the 230bhp ish of the "30d", and it wil be considerably more economical. The "25d" is hardly any more economical than the "30d" anyway (probably none more so in the real world where you will rev it harder that the "30d" to get the same result, and use more fuel). The mapping issue clearly matters to BMW, or why would they go to so much trouble to make it so hard to remap their new engines? I think the "30d" will become the 'lower end' 6cyl diesel, as the 320d is already not too far off the 325d in real terms. The 323d would be a bit cheaper and would open up a whole new set of buyers I reckon.

The only people really potentially losing out on the 325d are BMW at the moment, and that won't happen for long IMHO.

BMW have made the new d`s so much more difficult to crack for one reason only. They`re bringing out their own performance tuning products.
......and lets be honest, who cares if its a 323d or 325d, it`ll be shit even when tuned as its a diesel. The only diesel worth having is the 335d and only then if your old and lazy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by scotw
Is it as simple as that? At cruising speeds I think there is not much in it, so for most people its not that big of a deal. However, with the EU breathing down their neck and making noises about average CO2, BMW need more low CO2 engines in their range.

I think we could see 318D,320D,323D as 4 cly engines, with the 330D & 335D toping the range as 6.

Of the other advanges as someone said is that the 325D can no longer be used as a cheap 330D with a remap, a 323D will be more resistant to remaping than the 325D







If the 323d is geared the same as a the 123d, there`ll be a big difference. 123d is out of puff in 4th at 100mph, whereas the 325d will go to 120mph in 4th, even before its mapped.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulrikgm
Whatever you say - but Hartge and ESS are doing it so I willtrust them instead. It is very close to being the same engine as found in the 330d even the gearbox is the same. I think BMW are saying that the 330d has variable turbo geometry and the 325d does not but I am starting to doubt that.

http://www.esstuning.com/default.asp...&subcat2=265&i d=

http://www.hartge.de/e/bmw_motor_4344.html

Ulrik.





Your link to ESS shows exactly what I said, theirs is running at 238 PS.
Trust who you want lad, I spent 11 hrs in a tuning shop with my 325d, trying all sorts of different settings, it wont go anymore than 240 without over stressing things. This is the same reason why the 118d can`t be tuned to produce the same power as a mapped 120d. The turbos are much smaller, so only so much extra air can be added. Sure you can over fuel it to fuck and with a particle filter you wont get any smoke, but what happens when your PF dies at 20K miles ?

I would urge anyone thinking about aggresively tuning a 325d, to trade the car in for a 330/335d as it`ll not only be cheaper overall but yuo`ll see much greater results. This was part of the reason I binned mine off, A 320d in a high state of tune, was just as quick all the way to 140.

[Ulrikgm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulrikgm
Whatever you say - but Hartge and ESS are doing it so I willtrust them instead. It is very close to being the same engine as found in the 330d even the gearbox is the same. I think BMW are saying that the 330d has variable turbo geometry and the 325d does not but I am starting to doubt that.

http://www.esstuning.com/default.asp...&subcat2=265&i d=

http://www.hartge.de/e/bmw_motor_4344.html

Ulrik.





Your link to ESS shows exactly what I said, theirs is running at 238 PS.
Trust who you want lad, I spent 11 hrs in a tuning shop with my 325d, trying all sorts of different settings, it wont go anymore than 240 without over stressing things. This is the same reason why the 118d can`t be tuned to produce the same power as a mapped 120d. The turbos are much smaller, so only so much extra air can be added. Sure you can over fuel it to fuck and with a particle filter you wont get any smoke, but what happens when your PF dies at 20K miles ?

I would urge anyone thinking about aggresively tuning a 325d, to trade the car in for a 330/335d as it`ll not only be cheaper overall but yuo`ll see much greater results. This was part of the reason I binned mine off, A 320d in a high state of tune, was just as quick all the way to 140.[/QUOTE]

My link To ESS shows 274 DIN crank hp calculated with a 15% drive train loss.

The Hartge link clearly shows two levels of tune. one at 231hp at the crank and one at 271hp at the crank. That is about it.

The original number given by BMW is not whp it is supposed to be measured at the crank and that number should be 197 crank hp which again should be equal to 172 wheel hp calculated on a 15% drive train loss.


Ulrik

[steph.uk]

Difficult one!

Got a 325d and choose it over the 320d only because it is a 6 cylinder. More refined...and so on

Although, BMW has made some progress on 4 cylinder engines, they still better at doing 6 pots

Finally, the current 325d energy efficient is the only 6 cylinder with such a low Co2 rate at 155. for 197 bhp it is quite good though!

I think in the future BMW will increase the BHP of the 325d to make the gap even deeper between the 320 / 323.

Steph

[mikem]

Originally Posted by Ulrikgm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulrikgm
Whatever you say - but Hartge and ESS are doing it so I willtrust them instead. It is very close to being the same engine as found in the 330d even the gearbox is the same. I think BMW are saying that the 330d has variable turbo geometry and the 325d does not but I am starting to doubt that.

http://www.esstuning.com/default.asp...&subcat2=265&i d=

http://www.hartge.de/e/bmw_motor_4344.html

Ulrik.







Your link to ESS shows exactly what I said, theirs is running at 238 PS.
Trust who you want lad, I spent 11 hrs in a tuning shop with my 325d, trying all sorts of different settings, it wont go anymore than 240 without over stressing things. This is the same reason why the 118d can`t be tuned to produce the same power as a mapped 120d. The turbos are much smaller, so only so much extra air can be added. Sure you can over fuel it to fuck and with a particle filter you wont get any smoke, but what happens when your PF dies at 20K miles ?

I would urge anyone thinking about aggresively tuning a 325d, to trade the car in for a 330/335d as it`ll not only be cheaper overall but yuo`ll see much greater results. This was part of the reason I binned mine off, A 320d in a high state of tune, was just as quick all the way to 140.

My link To ESS shows 274 DIN crank hp calculated with a 15% drive train loss.

The Hartge link clearly shows two levels of tune. one at 231hp at the crank and one at 271hp at the crank. That is about it.

The original number given by BMW is not whp it is supposed to be measured at the crank and that number should be 197 crank hp which again should be equal to 172 wheel hp calculated on a 15% drive train loss.


Ulrik[/QUOTE]

The Hartge link has a misprint on it, both show the same product code.

The 325d will not make 270 hp without a bigger turbo.



Steph, I think you`ve hit the nail on the head with increased power figures.

[remmib]

Originally Posted by mikem

The Hartge link has a misprint on it, both show the same product code.

The 325d will not make 270 hp without a bigger turbo.



Steph, I think you`ve hit the nail on the head with increased power figures.

What misprint??

12 30 0197 G: 197hp to 271hp
12 25 0197 G: 197hp to 231hp

[Ulrikgm]

Hartge just wrote back to me and confirmed that they can chip tune the 325d to 271bhp/591NM.

I think that concludes the discussion about what is possible when chip tuning this car even though I must admit that I am also surprised that it is possible to take it that fare. It should however not be a problem because the 325d and the 330d uses the same gearbox as fare as I remember (manual - I am not certain about the auto) and they are rated to 600NM.

Further I tell you there is a guy on the forum that had his 325d tuned by ESS. If he would care "chip" in feel free to do so.......

Ulrik

[dxb335d]

Wonder what the hell Hartge could get out of the 335d then?

[Ulrikgm]

Originally Posted by dxb335d

Wonder what the hell Hartge could get out of the 335d then?

http://www.hartge.de/UploadPDF/E92%2...2012350286.pdf

It seems that the 325d is the very well suited for chip tuning.

[mikem]

Originally Posted by dxb335d

Wonder what the hell Hartge could get out of the 335d then?

Melted G`box and and dismounted rear sub-frame.

Ulrikgm, if thats right then things have really moved on since mine was mapped by DMS last Dec, then again in Feb. It was their programmer who warned me that taking it further would sacrifice longevity. I don`t know anything about engine internals but I do know the 325 and 330 both have variable geometry turbos but have different part No`s for the engine, cyl. heads and clutches as I looked into this last year.

[dxb335d]

Originally Posted by mikem

Melted G`box and and dismounted rear sub-frame.

Ulrikgm, if thats right then things have really moved on since mine was mapped by DMS last Dec, then again in Feb. It was their programmer who warned me that taking it further would sacrifice longevity. I don`t know anything about engine internals but I do know the 325 and 330 both have variable geometry turbos but have different part No`s for the engine, cyl. heads and clutches as I looked into this last year.

Mikem the 335d hater

What on a normal re-map? you rekon so?