[TWiTCHY]

So I've been told I have to take photos of an awards assembly at my school which takes place in our fairly large gym.

One problem with shooting in this environment is lighting - while light is plentiful, it is by no means enough to shoot at a fast enough shutter speed to prevent motion blurring caused by people moving around and such. I would like to shoot at a somewhat low ISO, preferably below ISO400.

I've thought about using my external flash, but there are no walls close enough to the center of the gym to bounce off of, and the ceiling is way too high to be bounced off of. A diffuser will not work (true?) because it needs a reflective surface to bounce off of, otherwise it is no better than doing direct flash, from what I've heard.

In this case, what would I do/use? I will be shooting with a 70-200mm f/4 IS, and lighting gets tricky down at the 200mm end with an on camera flash (off-camera is not allowed - they're afraid of people tripping over lightstands...)

Help?

[MikeBoldt]

First of all, what flash and body are you using?

[rodi]

a D700 and an SB-900 would solve your 200mm on-camera flash problem. ;] but you didn't go that route.

don't you have a 5D2? why do you feel like you have to stay below ISO 400?


are there ledges where you can set the flashes without a stand and aim them up? ceiling too high? grab some small reflective bits to aim the flash with - or small 12" umbrellas. i'm sure you can talk whoever into letting you use something smaller than what they think a "lightstand" is. full flash power (and some extra batts) and ISO 800 will go a long way.

[TWiTCHY]

Originally Posted by rodi

a D700 and an SB-900 would solve your 200mm on-camera flash problem. ;] but you didn't go that route.

don't you have a 5D2? why do you feel like you have to stay below ISO 400?


are there ledges where you can set the flashes without a stand and aim them up? ceiling too high? grab some small reflective bits to aim the flash with - or small 12" umbrellas. i'm sure you can talk whoever into letting you use something smaller than what they think a "lightstand" is. full flash power (and some extra batts) and ISO 800 will go a long way.

Ha ha very funny...

Yeah I'm using a Canon 5D2, 580EX II, and a 70-200mm f/4 IS. I prefer not to use a tripod. I feel like I need to keep my ISO below 400 because the 5D2 has a funny way of handling noise reduction. Currently, I have NR turned off so that I can get the sharpest pictures, but when turned on, even on the "low" NR setting, I find that it makes the photos really soft. I find that if I keep the ISO at or below 400, then I can avoid noise for the most part.

There are no ledges or anything that can reach out to the center of the gym.

At the moment I think my only solution is a diffuser of some sort.

[1013mm]

only way is to use higher ISO and or lower aperture. What camera are you using??

[rodi]

definitely keep NR off. always.
the fine grain noise of the D3/D700 and (hopefully) the 5D2 is pleasing and very film-like. embrace it. either way, you should be pretty noise free at 1600 and below, as long as you're not exposing for the shadows.

at f/4 and your IS giving you 1/125 (it's a ceremony not a game), you should be able keep your ISO at or below 1600 in this gym. place your undiffused flash on the opposite corner from you (you have triggers right?) and aim it at your subjects far side/back quarters so that the flash is at your 2 or 10 o'clock. this will give you a nice rim on your subjects to make your bad ambient lighting look bad-ass.


edit: you can has triggers, too: http://www.gadgetinfinity.com/produc...roductid=16766

[UdubBadger]

twitch.... if you need to, go rent a Norman flash kit (or something similar) and a soft box. you'll also need a bracket to mount the flash head on and you can put the battery pack on a belt.

http://www.glazerscamera.com/rentals-lighting.html

looks like they might be local so give them a call.

[scollins]

Can you get into the gym ahead of time to try some test shots? That might help you find a solution. Without a diagram of the gym and the ceremony setup, it is hard to give specific advice.

[spectrumphoto]

The 5D MKII has incredible latitude with ISO. Its images at 5000 ISO are better than the 1D MK III at 2000 ISO Do not be afraid of pumping up the ISO on that body. I have shot with the 5D MKII at 6400 ISO with very favorable results.

Now do they have any theatrical lighting for the ceremony, if so then an ISO of 1250 to 1600 should be fine with a color temp of 3200 deg. If it is only overhead gym lighting then probably ISO of 2000 to 2500 with a color temp of probably 4300 deg should be fine. Depending on your distance from subject a 580EX should be able to reach at least in a fill capacity. I would direct fire it but use a diffuser like an Omni Bounce attached (3/4 stop loss).

Hope that helps.

[TWiTCHY]

Originally Posted by rodi

definitely keep NR off. always.
the fine grain noise of the D3/D700 and (hopefully) the 5D2 is pleasing and very film-like. embrace it. either way, you should be pretty noise free at 1600 and below, as long as you're not exposing for the shadows.

at f/4 and your IS giving you 1/125 (it's a ceremony not a game), you should be able keep your ISO at or below 1600 in this gym. place your undiffused flash on the opposite corner from you (you have triggers right?) and aim it at your subjects far side/back quarters so that the flash is at your 2 or 10 o'clock. this will give you a nice rim on your subjects to make your bad ambient lighting look bad-ass.


edit: you can has triggers, too: http://www.gadgetinfinity.com/produc...roductid=16766

Haha that actually sounds pretty cool, I might try that. Good thing I have those Cactus triggers already

Originally Posted by UdubBadger

twitch.... if you need to, go rent a Norman flash kit (or something similar) and a soft box. you'll also need a bracket to mount the flash head on and you can put the battery pack on a belt.

http://www.glazerscamera.com/rentals-lighting.html

looks like they might be local so give them a call.

DAH that's too much work. This isn't anything THAT serious, I'm not even being paid

Originally Posted by spectrumphoto

The 5D MKII has incredible latitude with ISO. Its images at 5000 ISO are better than the 1D MK III at 2000 ISO Do not be afraid of pumping up the ISO on that body. I have shot with the 5D MKII at 6400 ISO with very favorable results.

Now do they have any theatrical lighting for the ceremony, if so then an ISO of 1250 to 1600 should be fine with a color temp of 3200 deg. If it is only overhead gym lighting then probably ISO of 2000 to 2500 with a color temp of probably 4300 deg should be fine. Depending on your distance from subject a 580EX should be able to reach at least in a fill capacity. I would direct fire it but use a diffuser like an Omni Bounce attached (3/4 stop loss).

Hope that helps.

No theatrical lighting, just overhead lighting. ISO400 might be a bit ambitious. I'll try shooting ISO800 next time I'm in there.

I'll also be picking up that Omni-Bounce diffuser you mentioned pretty soon, except I don't know if I'll end up using it or not.

Originally Posted by scollins

Can you get into the gym ahead of time to try some test shots? That might help you find a solution. Without a diagram of the gym and the ceremony setup, it is hard to give specific advice.

Good idea!

[UdubBadger]

Originally Posted by TWiTCHY

DAH that's too much work. This isn't anything THAT serious, I'm not even being paid

hey thats fine, but don't forget... opportunities like this are ways to GET PAID for jobs like this. If you take it seriously, take good pix, then that is the difference of you being asked to come back to do it or something similar again, and get paid $500 instead of $50 because the pics turned out the best they could have.

[1013mm]

Originally Posted by UdubBadger

hey thats fine, but don't forget... opportunities like this are ways to GET PAID for jobs like this. If you take it seriously, take good pix, then that is the difference of you being asked to come back to do it or something similar again, and get paid $500 instead of $50 because the pics turned out the best they could have.

totally.

[TWiTCHY]

Originally Posted by UdubBadger

hey thats fine, but don't forget... opportunities like this are ways to GET PAID for jobs like this. If you take it seriously, take good pix, then that is the difference of you being asked to come back to do it or something similar again, and get paid $500 instead of $50 because the pics turned out the best they could have.

My school just went through budget cuts, hence why they've hired me for free instead of hiring a pro

[UdubBadger]

Originally Posted by TWiTCHY

My school just went through budget cuts, hence why they've hired me for free instead of hiring a pro

never hurts for a portfolio

[TWiTCHY]

Originally Posted by UdubBadger

never hurts for a portfolio

School assemblies are among my worst photos ever.

Photojournalism just isn't what I'm used to.

Well, the assembly is tomorrow. I hope everything goes well!

[dcstep]

Twitchy, my friend, use the 5D2's high ISO performance and fix the color temperature of the lighting in DxO. You've got all the tools you need and you're fighting with one arm behind your back with that archaic ISO 400. Shoot in RAW to get a 25MB file and then adjust the crap out of color temperature for those false lights.

The attached image was taken handheld from 33 meters with my f4L 70-200 at f4/183mm and ISO 2000. Color temperature required several hundred degrees of correction because of lots of yellow ambiant light and a mix of floods. It's also cropped about 1/3, if I recall correctly. I started with a RAW file around 25MB.

There's some slight softness, but that's mostly due to the movement. I should have probably used the P-mode and set the ISO at 3200 or 6200 to get a faster shutter speed than the 1/160 that resulted from being in fully automatic mode. Anyway, noise is not the issue. This file looks even better when it hasn't been reduced in size for internet consumption.

One huge reason to spring for the big bucks on the 5D2 is it's stunning high ISO performance. You're missing out when you don't use it, IMHO.

Look at those deep, rich noiseless blacks. Look at the detail on the flag that's not moving and the dress patern at the top of the stair.

Dave

[dcstep]

Of course, when you shoot up close, flash is often the way to go.

Still, you really need to explore your camera's high ISO performance. It'll change your life.

Dave

[rodi]

dave, did you have NR on? it looks a bit smeared.

[dcstep]

Originally Posted by rodi

dave, did you have NR on? it looks a bit smeared.

No. There was subject movement. Look at the building trim and that flag to the right for the real sharpness guage.

Oh, I should say, DxO applies noise reduction prior to RAW conversion, automatically (unless I turn it off), so there was some out of camera NR.

Dave

[rodi]

i am looking there. i would keep all NR off. it just makes smear. and these sensors have really pleasing fine-grain. try it next time.

3200 - no NR:




ISO 5000 - No NR:


Twitchy, would like to see your results when you get done. Try that rim light idea.

[techforge]

I had to shoot a dance performance under low light and flash was not permitted. Just use the iso and aperture combination to get the shutter speed you need. Then process the grain with noise ninja or noiseware if it's that objectionable. I managed these shots with no flash at 2500.

[dcstep]

Originally Posted by Phiberglass

Without a FF sensor for the high ISO it's pretty tough.

I think that Twitchy, our OP, has a FF camera.

Dave