[Hotcoupe]

Originally Posted by acerboo

there is a state in the us where it is against the law NOT to carry a gun. there is zero gun crime by contrast a neighbouring state has high gun crime. remember gun crimes are carried out by criminals not law abiding people. banning guns would not prevent massacres especially inside large buildings, in fact there are far more effective measures that could be taken that would have the same result though less dramatic

Not quite right Jeff,it's not a State,it's a town called Kennesaw in Georgia State.

Originally Posted by Sir_Pigley

The constitution is so sacrosanct to them that it blinds them to common sense.

The American Constitutions roots,and in particular 'the right to bear arms' can be traced back to the mid 1770's, and owes its origins to King George and the British Empire.

Whilst some parts of the constitution undoubtedly have a place in modern American society,the 'right to bear arms',is an enactment,that arguably does not now have any place at all.
It's doubtful that many Americans know their own history,but blindly believe in something that they perceive has become a god given right!

Originally Posted by A_P

What gives us the right to sit here in our cosy homes and tell a democratic country what they should do in regards to gun law?

Playing Devils advocate here AP,but why not?

The Americans preach their own gospel on a world wide basis when it suits them,freedom of speech is not an exclusive American right,that right also exists in other countries,notably here,something the Americans would no doubt love to silence,both here and in other countries.

Lets face it Americans love their guns,more than their utes & cadillacs,the gun will always form part of their daily dress,and sit nicely in the display cabinets up and down the country.

Nothing will change despite Obamas rhetoric,the carnage will continue.

Nothing focuses the mind of many people more than the tragic loss of very,very young lives,sadly,once the last coffin has been laid to rest,the needless,and yet another massacre will fade into obscurity,just like Columbine,which happened in 1999, has.

Crazy,crazy madness!

[xenon]

Originally Posted by Hotcoupe

Not quite right Jeff,it's not a State,it's a town called Kennesaw in Georgia State.

Which is a gun ownership law which says you should keep a gun at home for personal protection - totally different from being required to carry a gun and you can opt out of it anyway for conscientious or financial reasons. Similar to Switzerland.

Still fcuking mad though.

[A_P]

Hey someone had to play the devil's advocate.

I have been to a few places around the world, recently a trip to India and Pakistan a few times. Needless to say that atrocities happen everywhere, and will continue to happen.

It is the way with our world, at times kind and at times extremely cruel. It is the balance of life.

Venting frustrations in thread can certainly help one to blow off steam but expecting that something can be done about it straight away by taking away guns, is naive and wishful thinking.

I really would love to never hear of another event like this but the sad outlook of reality is that it most probably will.

[rich1068]

I'd argue that twenty children and six adults shot to death by a nut case with weapons he shouldn't have been able to get within ten miles of, is not the balance of life.

[A_P]

Yes Rich you would. and so would others. But I am a man of faith, I believe in a God. It makes it easier for me to accept these things.

My comment was not meant with the intention for you guys to be dispassionate. It was just my way of venting how i feel.

Its not nice at all.

[xenon]

If it's the balance of life are you saying that it's "God's Will" or something along those lines?

(PS - not being provocative, interested in your point of view)

[A_P]

Hopefully it wont turn into a "believer and "atheist" thread.

But yes I do believe that things happen for a reason. Sometimes things happen and we see it only from our own eyes, and not in the eyes of a greater being who may have different plans.

Joking around on a forum aside, I genuinely believe that I should live my life honestly. Help others where I can and try to make a difference where I can.

The rest I accept as gods will. Be it for good or bad.

*flame suit on*

[acerboo]

Originally Posted by xenon

Which is a gun ownership law which says you should keep a gun at home for personal protection - totally different from being required to carry a gun and you can opt out of it anyway for conscientious or financial reasons. Similar to Switzerland.

Still fcuking mad though.

thanks Ian for the correction. its not an ownership law from what I remember it requires citizens to carry a gun hence the yearly reminder.

[xenon]

No Jeff - not a requirement to carry which would be impossible for some of the reasons I alluded to, just a requirement to own. I think we're singing from the same hymn sheet though.

[rich1068]

http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2012/12/...toward-patron/

[QUiKSR20]

This is a terrible and sad situation, I couldn't imagine loosing my 1 year old son.
Gun arguments will go back and fourth and I dont think anyone will be happy told they cannot have something even if they dont need it...

What I want to know is what does the average citizen need military grade automatic weapons for?

You need a gun thats fine a regular hand gun or hunting shot gun etc I can understand but not semi auto pistols / AR's etc... Hell why not let us have rocket launchers??
If you shoot for fun then rent a locker at the range or just rent the guns.

( im not a gun person so don't quote me on the technical stuff, I could care less about firearms ).

We know people will fight for the right to have firearms and that guns dont kill people its usually a person with mental health issues.

So they need to have some sort of plan to atleast make owning a gun a little safer.

Something sort of like this ( rough brainstorm ) :

We wont stop you from owning a gun but if you do then your whole household gets a background check. Anyone who lives at that residence all ages. And only if everyone passes the mental test then you need to install a safe or whatever they set fwd in rules. Once that safe is installed a person comes by like a home inspector and verifies it. Then you can have your gun you think you need and your going to be re-evaluated every year. You cant fix crazy and people will cry if they cant have there guns caused they feel they need that to defend themselves ( outside of hunters ). Those people are dead cause the lady was a moron not cause she was a gun holder. She brought her mental son shooting and then didnt keep her shit locked up. Its partially her blame you dont bring a mentally challenged kid with a history of issues shooting and then not lock your shit up.

Personally If you own automatic weapons ( for protection ) and you're not a police officer or work in law enforcement you're fooling yourself, you aren't going to be John Wayne, more likely to shoot yourself or someone you love. You truly want to be safe, get a big dog, and learn self defense and use your head. Otherwise move out of Compton and you won't need bars on your windows. Do the rest of us a favor so your messed up kids and self don't go crazy one day and ruin someone else's life because your too much of a punk to face your own problems.

/RANT

[xenon]

Originally Posted by A_P

Joking around on a forum aside, I genuinely believe that I should live my life honestly. Help others where I can and try to make a difference where I can.

I think most genuine Christians have a similar mindset and if everyone was like that then the world would be a better place. My uncle who died recently was a very religious man (without preaching) and would spend all of his time in retirement helping others. Christmas Lunch was always put off until tea time as he spent most of the day at the homeless shelter. He was a good man and, as I say, it would be nice if everyone had this ethic.

Originally Posted by A_P

But yes I do believe that things happen for a reason. Sometimes things happen and we see it only from our own eyes, and not in the eyes of a greater being who may have different plans.

The rest I accept as gods will. Be it for good or bad.

I'm a comitted atheist - as a man of science I simply don't accept that there is some "higher being" that controls everything that happens, but I have no issues with people that do believe.

However, statements like this always get my goat. You seem to be saying that the deaths of these little children was "God's will". So does that mean that the nutter who killed them was orchestrated by God? Does that make him a prophet? An avenging angel? What had these children possibly done to invoke God's ire such that he chose to smite them down in this way?

Of course, the standard answer from religious types to the question: "If God is good and loving (as He must be) then how can He allow such atrocities to happen? How can He allow thousands to starve?

Their stock answer of course is to mutter things about "mysterious ways his wonders" and how can we, as mere mortals, possibly know what His greater plans are?

This of course is a cop-out crock of shit.

If God effected this massacre because of his will then I'm glad not to have any belief in it.

I very much doubt the pastors attending to the bereaved in Connecticut are trolling out the line "It was God's will, suffer the little children etc" because that would very likely earn them a smack in the mouth.

Should the parents be told that your children were murdered not by a deranged psycho but it was simply "God's will" and it will all become clear in time?

Is that your God?

[A_P]

Originally Posted by xenon

I think most genuine Christians have a similar mindset and if everyone was like that then the world would be a better place. My uncle who died recently was a very religious man (without preaching) and would spend all of his time in retirement helping others. Christmas Lunch was always put off until tea time as he spent most of the day at the homeless shelter. He was a good man and, as I say, it would be nice if everyone had this ethic.



I'm a comitted atheist - as a man of science I simply don't accept that there is some "higher being" that controls everything that happens, but I have no issues with people that do believe.

However, statements like this always get my goat. You seem to be saying that the deaths of these little children was "God's will". So does that mean that the nutter who killed them was orchestrated by God? Does that make him a prophet? An avenging angel? What had these children possibly done to invoke God's ire such that he chose to smite them down in this way?

Of course, the standard answer from religious types to the question: "If God is good and loving (as He must be) then how can He allow such atrocities to happen? How can He allow thousands to starve?

Their stock answer of course is to mutter things about "mysterious ways his wonders" and how can we, as mere mortals, possibly know what His greater plans are?

This of course is a cop-out crock of shit.

If God effected this massacre because of his will then I'm glad not to have any belief in it.

I very much doubt the pastors attending to the bereaved in Connecticut are trolling out the line "It was God's will, suffer the little children etc" because that would very likely earn them a smack in the mouth.

Should the parents be told that your children were murdered not by a deranged psycho but it was simply "God's will" and it will all become clear in time?

Is that your God?

A committed Atheist. I was hoping the thread wouldn't turn this way.

I don't think there has to be a divide and that people should choose Science or God. In my immediate Family, Myself included we have a Doctor, Pharmacist, Aeronautical Engineer, Mechanical Engineer, Civil Engineer, Econmist, Business All at masters and PHD level and a dumbass Cousin who wont make into uni simply because he is too busy chasing skirt.

But we all believe in God.

Personally I find that Religion and Science complement each other. That is a personal opinion so totally Subjective.

It seems that you have a lot of questions, Questions which I cannot answer. Questions to which you may find some answers if you pick up a Bible, Quran, Torah a Sanskrit.

Not so you study a religion and become a convert. But because you can gain a better understanding of what it is they are about. If not for anything then just for self betterment. Broaden Your horizons.

Regards
AP

[rich1068]

Originally Posted by A_P

It seems that you have a lot of questions, Questions which I cannot answer. Questions to which you may find some answers if you pick up a Bible, Quran, Torah a Sanskrit.

Rag. Bull. xenon.

[xenon]

Broadening my horizons is slightly patronising, don't you think?

I'm not trying to convert you from religion to atheism and nor should it work the other way - your beliefs are entirely your prerogative.

Reading any of those religious works would not provide me, as an atheist, any answers as to why God would work in such a way. After all, they haven't provided the answers to you, by your own admission.

I don't really have "a lot of questions"; they were all rhetorical. I never expected nor received any rational answers as to why God would allow such atrocities because I don't believe this specific act was anything other than a deranged lunatic.

To suggest to the grieving that there may have been some higher power at work, one which we could not possibly understand, is fairly insulting - in my humble opinion.

[A_P]

Hey I never said anything to the grieving. Nor did I suggest anything. You assumed I did.

I clearly stated It was my own opinion. Not an opinion of all people who believe in a god.

It was not being patronizing, I was just saying you a strong opinion of something which you maybe not understand, so maybe reading up on it more would allow you to maybe understand better what it is all about.

Its about Faith.

Believing in something you don't want to.

It was never insulting. You assumed it that way.It was your opinion after all.

[xenon]

Originally Posted by A_P

I clearly stated It was my own opinion. Not an opinion of all people who believe in a god.

Fair enough. I'm sure most believers would not share that opinion [that it's God's will] simply because, in essence, it is entirely contradictory to what God is supposed to be about.

However, this is ultimately pointless for either one of us so I'll leave it there.

Merry Christmas and heartfelt sympathies to those who will be enduring the worst Christmas they've ever had.

[A_P]

Originally Posted by xenon

Fair enough. I'm sure most believers would not share that opinion [that it's God's will] simply because, in essence, it is entirely contradictory to what God is supposed to be about.

However, this is ultimately pointless for either one of us so I'll leave it there.

Merry Christmas and heartfelt sympathies to those who will be enduring the worst Christmas they've ever had.

I am not sure what others think, everyone is different.

My deepest condolences.

[Hotcoupe]

I'm not sure what's worse on this forum,discussing:

Religion
Politics
what's faster,the 335D or the 335i?

I suspect the latter

Anyway,back to crazyland

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...andy-Hook.html

[xenon]

I agree - the latter.

Regarding the link you posted I'm normally a defender of Americans and hate broad-brush opinions like "dumb yanks" which are often expressed on here after a video clip of somebody doing something daft who happens to be an American. After all, this is country who went to the moon.

But regarding that link I can only say one thing: Stupid bastards.

[mowflow]

They didn't go to the moon. It was a hoax directed by Kubrick. For christ sake man, you come across as intelligent, you should know this stuff. All the messages are hidden in the shining for everyone to see.

[xenon]

Ah yes, sorry.

Damn that Kubrick.