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      02-10-2018, 10:40 AM   #1
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N55 PI without turbo upgrade

Hello,
I own a N55 powered car, with JB4, almost free exhaust (catless DP, performance Y pipe and Inside Performance dual pipe axleback), which works fine.

I only want to run good quality fuel pump (I run 102 RON daily, 98 casually, when I don't find anything better), or E85. No meth injection.

I have plans for pulling the trigger on a Pure Stage 2 turbo (or maybe the VTT single, that is released in 2018), but as of now my budget doesn't allow me that.

Of course those turbo options will require extra fuelling to give good results. Therefore, my plans include at least stage 2 LPFP (probably DIY), and port injection.

I could afford the fuelling options in a relatively close future. Does it make sense to upgrade fuelling system asap, and swap turbo later (say 1 or 2 years)?

2 immediate benefits that I can see would be:
  • I could run 100% E85 at stock power level. Which is nice for the budget.
  • PI provides intake "self cleaning". It would avoid to clean it manually on a regular basis.

Other than this, would there be any other benefit? Could I gain some power on pump fuel?

Thank you in advance for you help.
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      02-11-2018, 07:10 PM   #2
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Assuming you have a 2010 like your driver profile says then you have a N54 and this should be posted in the N54 section.

I would upgrade turbo before fueling. You will still be able to run the turbo or turbos (N54) on the stock fuel system. Which system you chose will determine if port injection on pump gas makes sense or not.
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      02-11-2018, 07:29 PM   #3
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If you want you could upgrade the fueling with port injection/fuel pump and try to absolutely max out the stock twins (n54), should be around 500whp and insane amount of torque on full e85 which would be cool before you change the turbo.
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      02-12-2018, 07:41 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbod View Post
Assuming you have a 2010 like your driver profile says then you have a N54 and this should be posted in the N54 section.
It's a 2010 N55 DCT 135i.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbod View Post
I would upgrade turbo before fueling. You will still be able to run the turbo or turbos (N54) on the stock fuel system. Which system you chose will determine if port injection on pump gas makes sense or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeekendWarriorz View Post
If you want you could upgrade the fueling with port injection/fuel pump and try to absolutely max out the stock twins (n54), should be around 500whp and insane amount of torque on full e85 which would be cool before you change the turbo.
So what seems to come out of your both posts is that no power gain is to expect (on stock turbo N55)...

At least the system would pay for itself quite quickly with the price difference between E85 and pump gas. Hard decision.
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      02-12-2018, 12:24 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NonoxX View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbod View Post
Assuming you have a 2010 like your driver profile says then you have a N54 and this should be posted in the N54 section.
It's a 2010 N55 DCT 135i.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbod View Post
I would upgrade turbo before fueling. You will still be able to run the turbo or turbos (N54) on the stock fuel system. Which system you chose will determine if port injection on pump gas makes sense or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeekendWarriorz View Post
If you want you could upgrade the fueling with port injection/fuel pump and try to absolutely max out the stock twins (n54), should be around 500whp and insane amount of torque on full e85 which would be cool before you change the turbo.
So what seems to come out of your both posts is that no power gain is to expect (on stock turbo N55)...

At least the system would pay for itself quite quickly with the price difference between E85 and pump gas. Hard decision.
he just said that you could upgrade fuel and Max the stock turbos, what do you mean no power increase is expected...


wrong section, wrong chassis.
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      02-12-2018, 03:40 PM   #6
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If you want to run a high E mixture then port injection will be needed. You should be able to run E30 and max out the stock turbo though. The point I was making is I am able to run 20 psi on the pure stage 2 on pump gas using the stock fuel system. I am able to run 18 - 20 psi on E30 as well. Most people get around 17 - 18 psi on E30 with their stock fuel system.

As for cost savings you wont see it. The more E you throw in the tank the worse fuel economy you will get. Some people are getting 9 - 10 mpg running E85 and higher. I get around 18 - 19 mpg on E30.
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      02-12-2018, 03:58 PM   #7
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Wrong chassis? I am in the N55 E sťries section right?

By no power increase I mean that I could not get more power with FBO+PI+E85 than with my current setup (FBO and pump gas).

I wouldnít have expected gas mileage to get that bad. Iíve always been told that E85 would increase consumption by about 30%, in normal driving conditions. As E85 is about 1/3 the price on good pump gas here... Thatís all my economy estimation is based on. Seems wrong then.
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      02-12-2018, 04:37 PM   #8
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We didn't get any N55s in 2010 model years in the U.S. That's why they are confused but yes you are in the right section.
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      02-12-2018, 04:44 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin39 View Post
We didn't get any N55s in 2010 model years in the U.S. That's why they are confused but yes you are in the right section.
Hah thatís why... Itís a Euro specíed car
Thank you
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      02-12-2018, 05:56 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NonoxX View Post
By no power increase I mean that I could not get more power with FBO+PI+E85 than with my current setup (FBO and pump gas).
You will for sure make more power running any amount of ethanol over just pump gas. You will be able to run more timing and more boost with a higher octane fuel. There isn't a need to run full E85 with the stock turbo. If you want to mix in some ethanol to get to E30 put the JB4 on map 5 and log to see if trims are maxed. Are you using any kind of back end flash or just JB4 only?
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      02-13-2018, 01:56 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbod View Post
You will for sure make more power running any amount of ethanol over just pump gas. You will be able to run more timing and more boost with a higher octane fuel.
That's for sure. Just switching from 98 RON to 102 RON pump gas makes quite a difference. Not a hughe one (will never gain 70hp that way), but one I can definitely feel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbod View Post
There isn't a need to run full E85 with the stock turbo. If you want to mix in some ethanol to get to E30 put the JB4 on map 5 and log to see if trims are maxed.
Yep, it already happened that I ran ~E30 for pushing the limits. E30 runs well, never went higher cause it's know not to work very well on stock fuelling.

Nevertheless I see that kind of mixture more like a "weekend mix". As that car is my daily and I don't want to bother with mixing during the week.

The idea would be that I would fill up always at the same place near home, 0,6€/L E85, instead of 1,30€/L 102RON gas near work. E85 price is stable, pump gas always increases. That's for me a gain of time, peace of mind, and a gain of money after the fueling system's cost was covered by the price difference, which should come fast. This car covers between 25 and 30000 km / year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbod View Post
Are you using any kind of back end flash or just JB4 only?
Today I’m on JB4 over the BMW MPPK with no other sort of BEF.

Last edited by NonoxX; 02-13-2018 at 04:31 AM. Reason: More complete answer
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      02-13-2018, 02:51 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NonoxX View Post
Today Iím on JB4 over the BMW MPPK with no other sort of BEF.
Without a BEF to change the stock fuel tables you will only be able to run a certain amount of E85 before your trims max out and you start running lean. Make sure you're posting a few logs on N54tech.
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      02-13-2018, 03:28 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbod View Post
Without a BEF to change the stock fuel tables you will only be able to run a certain amount of E85 before your trims max out and you start running lean. Make sure you're posting a few logs on N54tech.
This certainly means that I canít have a fixed flash that would accept both E85 and pump gas. Right?
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      02-13-2018, 03:50 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NonoxX View Post
This certainly means that I canít have a fixed flash that would accept both E85 and pump gas. Right?
You have a small amount of adjustability with the JB4. You should be able to run pump and E30 on the same BEF but anything higher than the BEF would need to be changed. You can flash maps in 2 minutes with the blaze cable from Twisted Tuning. Every pump will have a different concentration of ethanol, every vehicle will have slightly different limits. You will really just need to test and log. Running a BEF has other perks too so don't write it off just because you MAY not NEED it.
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      02-16-2018, 03:49 AM   #15
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I see. BEF seems to be the way to go nowadays... But it's another topic

Thank you for your support!
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      02-18-2018, 07:52 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NonoxX View Post
I see. BEF seems to be the way to go nowadays... But it's another topic

Thank you for your support!
I want to make sure I didn't leave this out. Without the BEF you cannot run more ethanol since the JB4 alone cannot adjust the fuel tables. It isn't the BEF that is limiting you, it's the JB4. MHD is working on a flex fuel configuration where, with the use of an ethanol sensor, the two maps (flash) will blend depending on your ethanol content.
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      02-18-2018, 08:04 PM   #17
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You should ditch the JB4 and just run the off the shelf MHD E30 map

And instead of port injection get a stage 2 LPFP

Call it a day there.
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      02-19-2018, 04:55 PM   #18
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I prefer keeping the JB4 anyway, as I can switch maps on the fly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbod View Post
I want to make sure I didn't leave this out. Without the BEF you cannot run more ethanol since the JB4 alone cannot adjust the fuel tables. It isn't the BEF that is limiting you, it's the JB4. MHD is working on a flex fuel configuration where, with the use of an ethanol sensor, the two maps (flash) will blend depending on your ethanol content.
Thatís interesting now. Any idea on when they could release that?

Iím not sure to understand where the flex fuel sensor would output, since I doubt that the DME has spare inputs, and that they would code their own or modify the DMEís firmware.
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      02-19-2018, 05:12 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NonoxX View Post
I prefer keeping the JB4 anyway, as I can switch maps on the fly.



Thatís interesting now. Any idea on when they could release that?

Iím not sure to understand where the flex fuel sensor would output, since I doubt that the DME has spare inputs, and that they would code their own or modify the DMEís firmware.
All I know it is something they are working on. I don't have an inside man and I'm not part of the development team so any date I would give would be a complete guess. I am also not sure of the logistics of how it would work but I am hopeful that when they figure it out it could be modified to work with methanol injection controllers. I would love for the DME to either see methanol flow and switch to another map or see the failsafe and switch to a pump gas map.
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      02-20-2018, 05:12 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NonoxX View Post
I prefer keeping the JB4 anyway, as I can switch maps on the fly.



Thatís interesting now. Any idea on when they could release that?

Iím not sure to understand where the flex fuel sensor would output, since I doubt that the DME has spare inputs, and that they would code their own or modify the DMEís firmware.
The DME does have an input and I have spent a year full time working out how to automate adding firmware to the DME to handle much greater complexity than I could achieve previously in assembler on the Evo and GT-R. The solution will scale to many Bosch ECUs soon. A very similar version of firmware has been running on my wife's E92 N55 for about 3 months.

Today I am doing testing on the bench of E and F series DMEs with a flex fuel input. Yesterday I was testing the realtime tuning component on F series bench ECU.
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      02-20-2018, 12:13 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWcurious View Post
The DME does have an input and I have spent a year full time working out how to automate adding firmware to the DME to handle much greater complexity than I could achieve previously in assembler on the Evo and GT-R. The solution will scale to many Bosch ECUs soon. A very similar version of firmware has been running on my wife's E92 N55 for about 3 months.

Today I am doing testing on the bench of E and F series DMEs with a flex fuel input. Yesterday I was testing the realtime tuning component on F series bench ECU.
That's a nice piece of work for sure.

Are you from MHD team?

One thing is sure, your work will have success...
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      02-20-2018, 04:55 PM   #22
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I am collaborating with MHD, but work independently.

The fun bit of today's testing is that the input I planned to use does not work on later F series, so that will need an interesting solution.

Success would be nice, thanks for your confidence/support. I think subsequent projects using the work will make the sacrifice of a year with negligible income worthwhile even if the first one doesn't.
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