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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90/E92/E93 Marketplace (For Sale / Trade / Wanted) > Vendor Comments/Review/Feedback Forum > Unethical Vendor - BMS (Burger Motorsports bad review)



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      10-15-2012, 04:15 PM   #89
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surprise a vendor will actually do that to make a few $, lets say BMS manage to sell 5000 of these and make $5 each, thats 25k in the pocket, now, all these posts, i think their damages worth a whole lot more than the money they made (or would have made), bad business decision in their part.

granted, the product itself isn't patented, so no law is broken for copying the design, but using others pictures as their own? really, at least take your own pictures! that alone says how much confidence BMS has in their "own" products.

shame
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      10-15-2012, 04:40 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JetBlackE46 View Post
Hello, my name is Nelson and I’ve been an avid BMW enthusiast for many years now. A few years ago I saw that many E90 manual transmissions owners wanted an easy to install clutch stop for their vehicles. I was able to design and develop such a product after many months of R&D. I began to sell these clutch stops on eBay (ID: pickyeater334) as a hobby. I pride myself on selling a quality product and giving each customer the same service I would expect as a fellow BMW enthusiast. If you’ve dealt with me before, I thank you and I’m sure you can attest to both the quality of my design and to my prompt service.

BMS – not a BIMMERPOST sponsor, but a company I once considered “reputable” has stolen the pictures in my listing and called it their own. I assume they’ve copied my design exactly.

Here’s a link to my eBay listing:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/230519560074...84.m1555.l2649

Here’s a link to the BMS listing using my pictures:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/251167551669...84.m1423.l2649

The worse part of it is that, BMS had first made a copy cat clutch stop (and also stole my install pictures) a year ago and called my design inferior as part of their marketing campaign. But now they’re marketing my design as more “sturdy” and only selling it on eBay and undercutting me on price.

I think it’s crazy for a vendor to copy someone else’s product with something inferior and call it better. Then when customers realize that the original (designed by me) is in fact superior, they go ahead and copy it exact and now say what they’re selling is great. Is it all about $$$ and what they’re saying is all marketing BS?

Here’s a link to their first copy cat clutch stop by BMS:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/250989235114...84.m1423.l2649

It’s basically the same design as mine but they used rubber adjustment shims instead of metal. I’m sure many of you have purchased the BMS stopper and are happy with it and that’s great. After all it is based on my design. I’m not going to get into it here but if you search you’ll find that users do in fact find my design with the metal adjustment shims to be more solid feeling or complain that they didn’t feel much of a difference when they installed the BMS one. Many have switched over to my stopper after trying the BMS one for several months. I’ve been told they wish they knew about my original one first.

If BMS reads this and decides to delete or edit their listings, it’s ok because I’ve already archived those pages. To me it’s pretty shady business practice. I’ve already contacted them and expressed my concerns but they basically said so what and they had no knowledge of using my pictures.

The “right” thing to do would be for them to stop selling these clutch stops and stop using my pictures.
I just want my fellow enthusiasts to know the type of unethical behavior this particular vendor is capable of.

BMS is welcome to join in this thread to say they didn't copy my design and didn't have any knowledge of using my pictures as part of their promotional materials.
Yeah bought one of your stops last month -devilpain. You make a great product!
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      10-15-2012, 04:42 PM   #91
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There seems to be a key straw man in Terry's response (posted above) - namely, the notion that the OP claimed to "invent" the clutch stop. As a matter of fact, the OP stated otherwise in the first post of this thread. Is no one actually reading what others are posting?
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Last edited by ttribe; 10-15-2012 at 04:50 PM..
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      10-15-2012, 05:02 PM   #92
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Mike, thanks for posting Terry's response.

1) Read more carefully. I never said I invented the clutch stop. It’s been around for years. I said I invented the “easy to install E90 clutch stop” and I invented the first “easy to install adjustable E90 clutch stop”. I’m sure you’ve never seen my clutch stop before you walked into home depot. I guess that’s how you found my install pictures…which by the way you’re still using. Just because you darkened the red circle around the stopper doesn’t mean it’s your picture. You’re not fooling anyone.
2) If you say so.
3) If you say so.
4) Possible.
5) True but not the only reason. No need to rehash.
6) You must have a full service webmaster. They do everything for you including using my pictures. Nice.

It’s ok, I don’t expect anything from you. I just wanted the community to know. And again, I did not invent the clutch stop. I invented the easy to install E90 clutch stop.
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      10-15-2012, 05:06 PM   #93
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The current links do not have identical photos in them. Copying a design is common practice that benefits consumers by creating a price competitive market. Assuming BMS actually posted your pictures they could be guilty of copyright infringement and you might have a viable course of legal action.

Other than that this is just free market dynamics at work.
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      10-15-2012, 05:10 PM   #94
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E90Company - I don't want to derail this thread, but I have never bashed Cobb. I think they're a great company with an awesome, innovative product. As of right now, ATP has certain limitations, and Cobb tuned N54's aren't able to make as much power as piggyback tuned N54's on E85. This is a fact, no bashing.

I have a problem with BMS because they have built their entire business on copying other companies products. We all know you have a JB4 and through self admission said that "you are biased towards it because you own one" but facts are facts.

Terry's response above reminds me so much of when he was trying to defend copying the Procede. He even used the word libelous. Haha.

Terry uses Mike's account to post from time to time. Even the most staunch BMS supporter will admit to this. The two of them having different writing styles.
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      10-15-2012, 05:13 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwkbiker View Post
The current links do not have identical photos in them. Copying a design is common practice that benefits consumers by creating a price competitive market. Assuming BMS actually posted your pictures they could be guilty of copyright infringement and you might have a viable course of legal action.

Other than that this is just free market dynamics at work.
They took most of my pictures off finally.

I'll post the original listing when I figure out how post a web page.
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      10-15-2012, 05:16 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laguna Seca Blue View Post
E90Company - I don't want to derail this thread, but I have never bashed Cobb. I think they're a great company with an awesome, innovative product. As of right now, ATP has certain limitations, and Cobb tuned N54's aren't able to make as much power as piggyback tuned N54's on E85. This is a fact, no bashing.
I have yet to see a piggyback tuned N54 on e85 run at the dragstrip....

Care to show me some results?
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      10-15-2012, 05:18 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JetBlackE46 View Post
They took most of my pictures off finally.

I'll post the original listing when I figure out how post a web page.
If you are using Firefox - 1) install FireShot add-on; 2) open saved html doc in Firefox; 3) use FireShot to take a screen grab of the web page and save as a .jpg file; 4) upload to an image hosting site; 5) insert image code into post; 6) click on the "Submit Reply" button.
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      10-15-2012, 05:21 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttribe View Post
There seems to be a key straw man in Terry's response (posted above) - namely, the notion that the OP claimed to "invent" the clutch stop. As a matter of fact, the OP stated otherwise in the first post of this thread. Is no one actually reading what others are posting?
Exactly. Thanks!

I never said I invented the clutch stop.

I invented the easy to install adjustable E90 clutch stop.
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      10-15-2012, 05:33 PM   #99
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After reading everything, I can make two conclusions...
1) JetBlack has a legitimate complaint about BMS using his pictures to make profit. That's illegal and shady business.
but
2) It's a good thing for all of us in the community that BMS offers a clutch stop that is cheaper. Oh economics.
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      10-15-2012, 05:38 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttribe View Post
That would fall to BMS; not someone else. Mike can't have it both ways - he can't try to claim independence, and simultaneously insert himself into this debate.
He sells the product. He can put his two cents in all he wishes.

First it was he shouldn't because of some financial backlash or whatever nonsense you were able to fish out of your rear, now it is only BMS that can respond.

Whats your third made up reasoning?
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      10-15-2012, 05:41 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by divisionbell77 View Post
He sells the product. He can put his two cents in all he wishes.

First it was he shouldn't because of some financial backlash or whatever nonsense you were able to fish out of your rear, now it is only BMS that can respond.

Whats your third made up reasoning?
Oh good grief...I expressed the opinion that I thought it was a bad idea for a vendor claiming to be independent of the parties to be inserting himself into the fray. That's it. That's all. If you calmed down for half a moment, you might find I've taken a position on nothing else, including the underlying fight. The fact of the matter is this thread supports my position - rightly or wrongly (I honestly have no idea), Mike is now painted as being in bed with BMS. That's a bad thing under the circumstances.

BTW, I thought Mike said he didn't sell this particular BMS product. Did I miss something?
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Last edited by ttribe; 10-15-2012 at 05:46 PM..
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      10-15-2012, 05:46 PM   #102
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I saw that OP posted his pic on his ebay posting in May of this year.
When did BMS do theirs?
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      10-15-2012, 05:49 PM   #103
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Comparing the pictures looks like the ones on the BMS page was just cropped, brightened, and they added darker red circles on them. Lol seems like the fuzz on the carpeting is identical oh my
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      10-15-2012, 05:54 PM   #104
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As an MBA grad from a top tier school and entrepreneur myself, you got to protect your intellectual property. A broad based patent however probably will not pass because ford patented a clutch stop member in their 1983 patent which refers to a patent in 1977 and 1972 referenced below.

http://www.google.com/patents/US4527682

So based on these broad patents you did not invent anything. You merely created an eBay shop to sell a clutch stop which I myself did purchase for my 335. BMS can do the same as well as joe shmo next door. The only thing that made me annoyed was that BMS stole your pictures, which also are no longer technically yours after you publish them on a public domain. But BMS did acknowledge the fault and addressed it.

As entrepreneurs we live and learn.
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      10-15-2012, 05:56 PM   #105
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Sorry to hear about this. I bet it truly hits hard when you have put a lot of your hard work into something and watch someone else take it and make a profit. I'm not going to beat the dead horse over the whole patent thing, but I personally have decided to NOT pursue selling certain items on eBay without having a patent. And because I thought the cost of a patent would have probably outweighed the profit I would make, I decided not to sell the products that I could have made and sold. Years later on, big companies like Apple patented what I was going to patent and sell and I probably missed out big time. Or maybe not. I will never know. Oh well. You live and you learn. And the crazy part is that there are companies that directly rip off big companies like Apple and sell them for a fraction of what Apple sells them for. For instance, you can buy a replacement iPhone 4/4S back glass panel for a few dollars shipped to you. And it has all of the Apple logos on it. Looks identical to a factory Apple back. Or buy new cables for a dollar shipped. So even of you have a patent, it may not even help you. Either way, I feel your pain and it sucks that a company stole your intellectual property for their benefit.
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      10-15-2012, 06:12 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
Hey guys, I will do one last post in this thread as its not really my issue as I don't sell the metal clutch stop in question here so I have no real gain either way, but I always like to support my suppliers, BMS and anybody else. I know its a favourite thing for a certain few users to always say that I am a fake Terry, or Terry steals my account, etc. but there is nothing I can really say to change your mind so I don't even bother anymore. The reality is BMS is a significant supplier of mine, but I have many other suppliers and in reality BMS maybe makes up 25-30% of my sales volume.

Back to the Clutch stop, and before we get carried away here lets look at this clutch stop in more detail. It's basically a furniture pad and a few washers. Grant you, clutch stops have been made for decades and I used one on my very first car (1989 Jetta). It's not like we're talking about the worlds first adjustable clutch stop here. We're talking about a "product" that anyone can go in to Home Depot and make for around $1. This photo shows the parts used to make them. It's easy to see why this has not been patented.

A year or two ago BMS refined the clutch stop with hard rubber washers that reduce the potential for rattling and offer a bit of rebound. But those washers cost $.75 instead of $.04. So they marketed theirs for $10 and I think its a great product that I use on my own car. Still less than OP was charging. Now due to some claims spread by OP they were forced to offer a part using metal washers. That's life. And the good news for customers is the metal washers are a lot cheaper so they can sell their lower end clutch stop for less now. $6 shipped is almost half of what the OP charges I believe.

There may be more to this then I know but I will leave it at this and hopefully the two parties can get together and resolve this dispute.

Mike
Who are you and do you even understand the point of this thread???
We all know that the OP is making profit. That is the whole point of him selling it.
On the other hand, seems like BMS has done a completely dishonest thing. And what you are doing is not a science, however, there is no need for it here!

To the OP, I have used some General pictures on EBay to sell some of my tennis stuff before. Turned out those pictures came from one of the reputable on-line sellers (no watermark) and eBay removed my listing after the complaint was filed. I was not trying to take away from their business as they sell thousands of items, I just mistakenly posted their image.
On the other hand, I highly doubt that BMS did the same thing as the history you pointed out shows otherwise.

Good luck!
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      10-15-2012, 06:24 PM   #107
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My experience with BMS was terrible at best. I would suggest anyone but them for anything possible. Terry runs his business like a 15yr old in their mom's basement. Terry would not honor the deal his employee made with me. Chicken shit vendor IMO.
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      10-15-2012, 06:25 PM   #108
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You did provide it first. So maybe you could get free mods from them. or a slice of the cake.
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      10-15-2012, 07:03 PM   #109
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Too bad only BMS makes the BMS PB. I feel for you, but I'm not joining the whole BMS boycott like most people in this thread. I won't not buy from them because of some pictures. It's just failed communication.

Last edited by MattMD; 10-15-2012 at 07:42 PM..
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      10-15-2012, 07:37 PM   #110
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I feel like this was blown way out of proportion. I am still going to be buying BMS products
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