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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > German Invasion @ LACR



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      05-16-2007, 12:58 PM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Driver72 View Post
I think there is no doubt this would be the case if/when gearing ratios are the same.
But again, the auto has a 3.46 final drive ratio, the manual 3.08.
That and the super, super quick shifts of autos these days often make the autos just as fast as the manuals when driven perfectly and super fast.
But 90%+ of manual drivers can't shift fast enough to keep up with the autos these days.

Again, I could be wrong, but so far apples to apples comparisons seem to show otherwise in our cars.
SoCal335i, what was your best 60' time at German Invasion?

Either way, we are talking a matter of a tenth or so at most.
That's a blink of any eye.

It's not like just a few years ago, when autos were 1/2 second or more slower than the manuals, and 10 years ago it was closer to a second slower.
True technology today is getting better and if one day they do make autos that are always faster than manuals then i will probably get one too. I just love the feel of controlling the car. My fastest 60' that day was 2.122.
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      05-16-2007, 01:07 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by SoCal335i View Post
True technology today is getting better and if one day they do make autos that are always faster than manuals then i will probably get one too. I just love the feel of controlling the car. My fastest 60' that day was 2.122.
It depends on the car/setup too. I used to race a lot of LS1 Z28's, and the autos with a larger torque converter were around .5ths quicker than a 6spd manual, while the autos with a stock torque converter were .1ths slower than a 6spd manual, all else being equal.

The determining factor is torque. The more you have, the less an auto (or weight) impacts you. Also people should realize that shift speed really has nothing to do with why an auto is quicker, imho. It's all about the mechnanical advantage of a torque converter.
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      05-16-2007, 01:23 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Driver72 View Post
Well, Charlie, you were just one of a couple I've run.
From 60-130 you pulled about 1-1.25 on me, never 2 CL's (there was at most 5-10 feet of air between our bumpers.
But remember, you had an exhaust, lowered car, and on race gas, and I was on 91 Octane and you were on 245 tires, which are smaller and therefore also increase acceleration. (I also think you had lighter wheels than my heavy 19's)

You should of pulled 1+ CL on me with just the exhaust ALONE.

When Kujo and I ran (he also has an auto and exhaust only) he pulled 1 car length on me when I was stock from 10-90 mph.
So an exhaust alone should be worth 1+
The fact you also had the race gas, the lowered car, and smaller tires and so forth should of had you pulling 2-3 cars on me.

You dynoed 17 whp more to the rear wheels than me after the dyno install and that was 91 Octane.
With the race gas, you were probably pushing 25-30 hp more than me on those runs, but only put just over 1 CL on me.
It would be easy to argue if we were pushing the same HP, I'd of pulled on you.
Especially if I was lowered too (better aerodynamics) and had little 245 tires on instead of my 265's

Once I put in just 1.5 gallons race gas, we did at least 4 runs.
Just after we left Famoso on that Orange Grove road, you jumped me 1 CL from the honk but after than I hung to your rear bumper the rest of the run.
Then, on the freeway I pulled 1+ CL on you each time in like 3 more runs. I know you said your car threw a code, but that was on the last run, and my car was just as heat soaked as yours.

Anyway, once I get my coupe, I'll be more than happy to do some more auto vs. manual runs with people.
My coupe will hopefully run as strong as my sedan.
But with it's gearing advantage, shift speeds, and the fact the turbo keeps spooled between shifts, I think it'll take a VERY fast shifting manual driver to inch ahead.

BTW, I also did a run with ADHD, who also like you had a power advantage on me (he was running full tank of 100 Octane) as well as exhaust, lowered, and smaller tires too.
We botched the take off (he jumped on the first honk) then backed off, then I honked two more times and we went but once up and running I was creeping away from him from 50-100 mph!
i wasnt on race gas til we were almost to fomoso...and on 91 is when i was 1.25 cars ahead of you, and with race gas it was even worse.... and when you put race gas in on the way home is when my car started throwing CEL and went into Limp mode... a couple times, but yes your car hung with me a little bit better then.

I will say that out of all the 335's that i ran with your auto was probably one of the quickest ones and held its own. it was one of those gifted motors i guess, and sad you got rid of it, but your new one should be awesome as well...
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      05-16-2007, 01:24 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Driver72 View Post
I'll let you drive the auto at LACR or somewhere sometime, this 335i is my first auto, (I've dragged and owned only manuals up till now) and it takes a bit more skill than just flooring it.
You have to modulate the throttle just the same to keep from getting big tire spinning.
It's a bit trickier than you think.
I think SoCal335i got equal 60' times as the autos at German Invasion too.
I think the better 60' times the autos generally see is because they can load up the turbo at launch.
yea, once the manuals get launch control it should be a bit better... or that is what we are hoping for.
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      05-16-2007, 01:25 PM   #137
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Don't forget CEA has chisseled abs and stunning features, easily making up for 1 car length.
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      05-16-2007, 01:31 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by CEA 3 View Post
i wasnt on race gas til we were almost to fomoso...and on 91 is when i was 1.25 cars ahead of you, and with race gas it was even worse.... and when you put race gas in on the way home is when my car started throwing CEL and went into Limp mode... a couple times, but yes your car hung with me a little bit better than.

I will say that out of all the 335's that i ran with your auto was probably one of the quickest ones and held its own. it was one of those gifted motors i guess, and sad you got rid of it, but your new one should be awesome as well...
When my car was running it's best NA, you def pulled more than the other procede 335I's, you pulled on Sherwin's car by 1 1/2 as well. But now I think he might getcha.

But i agree with you Drivers72's auto 335I was quick, and he did very well at Famoso and on the way back home. Why did you sell it?
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      05-16-2007, 01:39 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by CEA 3 View Post
i wasnt on race gas til we were almost to fomoso...and on 91 is when i was 1.25 cars ahead of you, and with race gas it was even worse.... and when you put race gas in on the way home is when my car started throwing CEL and went into Limp mode... a couple times, but yes your car hung with me a little bit better then.

I will say that out of all the 335's that i ran with your auto was probably one of the quickest ones and held its own. it was one of those gifted motors i guess, and sad you got rid of it, but your new one should be awesome as well...

I'm going to break my coupe in hard.
I broke my sedan in "moderate"...basically drove it like the manual stated I should, but with the occasional 5-6K run and even redline a couple times.
I did a lot of mixed driving breaking in the sedan too.

But, with the coupe, I figure, I've never broke a car in hard, so I'm going to keep the revs up on that car quite a bit more for the first several hundred miles, and even do a couple triple digit (110-120 mph) freeway blasts when the time is right and wide open.
I'm also going to do some canyon runs varying the engine loads quite a bit.

So we'll see what comes of that.

Personally, even if my coupe doesnt' run quite as strong as my sedan, it won't matter. What's a couple hp between cars anyway.

I can't wait till fall when the weather gets cooler, I know we will all be doing quite a bit of meet ups by then.
It'll be fun.
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      05-16-2007, 01:46 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by DLSJ5 View Post

But i agree with you Drivers72's auto 335I was quick, and he did very well at Famoso and on the way back home. Why did you sell it?

Well, originally I wanted the coupe from the get-go.
Loved the look more.
But I was impatient and didn't want to wait 8-12 weeks for it.

But when a friend saw my sedan and loved it, he said, "I want that car, set up just like your car is." Then I got a call from him asking, "would you be at all interested in selling me your car?"

He offered to take over my lease payments and give me cash for most of the options I had on the car (PROcede and wheels).
I said, "well, that might be a perfect opportunity to get the coupe I originally wanted."

And to be honest, the fact I was a bit nervous about the fuel pump failures and oil cooler retrofit, made the choice easy too.
The new car will come with the new fuel pump, oil cooler from the factory, and a few other upgraded things I liked. Also helped that the coupe is a bit lighter, more rigid and less common, and will have more interchangeable parts with the E92 M3.

So it worked out for the best. Plus I have two other sedan cars already anyway, made no sense for me to have 3.
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      05-16-2007, 01:59 PM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Driver72 View Post
Well, originally I wanted the coupe from the get-go.
Loved the look more.
But I was impatient and didn't want to wait 8-12 weeks for it.

But when a friend saw my sedan and loved it, he said, "I want that car, set up just like your car is." Then I got a call from him asking, "would you be at all interested in selling me your car?"

He offered to take over my lease payments and give me cash for most of the options I had on the car (PROcede and wheels).
I said, "well, that might be a perfect opportunity to get the coupe I originally wanted."

And to be honest, the fact I was a bit nervous about the fuel pump failures and oil cooler retrofit, made the choice easy too.
The new car will come with the new fuel pump, oil cooler from the factory, and a few other upgraded things I liked. Also helped that the coupe is a bit lighter, more rigid and less common, and will have more interchangeable parts with the E92 M3.

So it worked out for the best. Plus I have two other sedan cars already anyway, made no sense for me to have 3.
Sounds like a good move.
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      05-16-2007, 02:01 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Driver72 View Post
I'm going to break my coupe in hard.
I broke my sedan in "moderate"...basically drove it like the manual stated I should, but with the occasional 5-6K run and even redline a couple times.
I did a lot of mixed driving breaking in the sedan too.

But, with the coupe, I figure, I've never broke a car in hard, so I'm going to keep the revs up on that car quite a bit more for the first several hundred miles, and even do a couple triple digit (110-120 mph) freeway blasts when the time is right and wide open.
I'm also going to do some canyon runs varying the engine loads quite a bit.

So we'll see what comes of that.

Personally, even if my coupe doesnt' run quite as strong as my sedan, it won't matter. What's a couple hp between cars anyway.

I can't wait till fall when the weather gets cooler, I know we will all be doing quite a bit of meet ups by then.
It'll be fun.

I don't think the break in makes any difference. Engines break in during the first minuite or two, so special break in periods are sort of an urban myth.
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      05-16-2007, 03:45 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrod182 View Post
By looking at the times, you can see how even going against a faster, more powerful car, it can still be a drivers race. An M3 convertible turned in faster times than some of the coupes. And if I ever told you that my stock 335i sedan could turn in a time as quick as a 500HP AMG Mercedes, you would think I was lying, but if you look at the times that people actually get, you can see how some people might actually think they beat a faster car because they had a little .50 second head start on the take off.

So here is an unofficial compiliation of the times that I observed. Unfortunately those damn timing lights are hard to read sometimes with their missing bulbs. (Someone should tell them to fix those!) I was in my car running for much of the time, so Im sure that I missed many of the better times that some of you ran. So again these are only the times that I observed, or had people run against me. I am sure I messed up on the VW model names, and some of the Audis, but at least this should get you a rough idea of the times that were run:

LACR . German Invasion. May 13th, 2007.

Blue Audi S4 Turbo 12.18 @ 114.49mph
Silver Porsche Turbo 12.51 @ 114.96mph
Silver Porsche Turbo 12.53 @ 115.31mph
Silver Porsche Turbo 12.54 @ 115.32mph
Blue Audi S4 Turbo 12.974 @ 108.464mph
Silver Porsche Turbo 12.98 @ 115.88mph
Blue Audi S4 Turbo. (Awe Tuning) 12.98 @ 110.10mph
Red Mercedes SLK32 AMG 13.14 @ 104.70mph
Blue Audi S4 Turbo. 13.14 @ 104.57mph
Silver Audi S4 Turbo 13.18 @ 103.33mph
Grey BMW E46 M3 (Supercharged) 13.25 @ 108.02mph
Red Mercedes SL55 AMG 13.40 @ 105.39mph
Black Audi S4 Turbo.13.45 @ 104.30mph
White BMW E90 335i Sedan (Stock) 13.465 @ 101.070mph
White BMW E90 335i Sedan (Stock) 13.470 @ 101.179mph
Red Audi Turbo Quattro (034 Motorsport) 13.49 @ 107.24mph
Grey BMW E46 M3 Supercharged 13.49 @ 107.00mph
White BMW E46 M3 Supercharged 13.51 @ 108.00mph
Blue Audi S4 13.55 @ 100.56mph
Red Mercedes SL55 AMG 13.57 @ 106.43mph
Grey BMW E46 M3 Supercharged 13.57 @ 106.16mph
White BMW E46 M3 Supercharged 13.58 @ 107.99mph
Red Mercedes SL55 AMG 13.58 @ 104.71mph
Black Mercedes CLS 63 AMG 13.59 @ 105.48mph
White BMW E90 335i Sedan (Stock) 13.598 @ 101.869mph
Black BMW E92 335i (software/exhaust?) 13.60 @ 104.07mph
Black BMW E92 335i (software/exhaust?) 13.65 @ 105.22mph
Black Mercedes CLS 63 AMG 13.66 @ 106.19mph
Black Mercedes CLS 63 AMG 13.684 @ 105.305mph
Grey Audi RS6 13.691 @ 102.401mph
Black BMW E90 335i (Xede?) 13.701 @ 104.323mph
Blue Audi S4 13.76 @ 103.79 mph
Blk BMW E46 M3 (2 Dr Jet) 13.76 @ 103.37mph
White BMW E92 335i (Turbo Tuner) 13.773 @ 102.784mph
Black BMW E92 335i (software/exhaust?) 13.79 @ 104.15mph
Silver BMW E90 335i Xede? 13.83 @ 102.22mph
Blue Audi S4 13.86 @ 102.52mph
White BMW E46 M3 Supercharged 13.89 @ 107.99mph
Grey BMW E46 M3 13.89 @ 107.24mph
White BMW E92 335i (Turbo Tuner) 13.890 @ 99.182mph
White BMW E92 335i (Turbo Tuner) 13.90 @ 103.23mph
Blk Mercedes CLS63 AMG 13.96 @ 105.99mph
Grey BMW E46 M3. 13.97 @ 107.76mph
Silver Audi S6 13.99 @ 102.17mph
Blk BMW E46 M3 (Mvenom) 14.03 @ 99.23mph
Red Mercedes SLK32 AMG 14.04 @ 100.67mph
White BMW E92 335i 14.05 @ 99.77mph
Black Mercedes CLS 63 AMG 14.09 @ 106.63mph
Blue BMW E46 M3 (Active AW) 14.13 @ 104.24mph
Red Porsche Turbo 14.140 @ 105.393mph
Blk BMW E46 M3 (2 Dr Jet) 14.15 @ 101.14mph
Blk BMW E46 M3 (2 Dr Jet) 14.18 @ 101.02mph
Grey BMW E46 M3 14.198 @ 98.042mph
Red Audi S4 14.23 @ 96.64mph
Grey BMW E90 335i Sedan. (Turbo Tuner) 14.25 @ 101.06mph
Blk BMW E46 M3 (2 Dr Jet) 14.26 @ 101.10mph
Grey Mercedes CLS 550 14.28 @ 96.73mph
Silver Audi S4 14.29 @ 95.70mph
Blk BMW E46 M3 (2 Dr Jet) 14.32 @ 100.96mph
Blue BMW E46 M3 14.33 @ 100.55mph
Red Audi S4 Turbo 14.33 @ 96.32mph
Grey Mercedes CLS 550 14.333 @ 96.603mph
Grey BMW E46 M3 14.37 @ 99.351mph
Silver BMW E46 M3 14.37 @ 97.36mph
Silver Mercedes C32 AMG Sedan 14.39 @ 98.27mph
Silver Mercedes C32 AMG Sedan 14.463 @ 97.307mph
Blue BMW E46 M3 14.47 @ 96.48mph
Silver BMW E39 M5 14.48 @ 97.97mph
Silver Mercedes C32 AMG Sedan 14.48 @ 97.85mph
Blue Audi S4 14.49 @ 94.10mph
Black BMW E46 M3 14.53 @ 99.94mph
Black BMW E46 M3 14.537 @ 97.482mph
Blue Audi S4 14.53 @ 95.64mph
Black VW R32 Supercharged 14.62 @ 95.17mph
Silver Audi S6 14.63 @ 96.91mph
Blue BMW E46 M3 Conv. 14.64 @ 96.96mph
Grey BMW E46 M3 14.650 @ 97.603mph
Black BMW E46 M3 14.67 @ 99.42mph
Silver BMW E39 M5 14.67 @ 98.02mph
Silver BMW E39 M5 14.67 @ 97.91mph
Silver Mercedes C32 AMG Sedan 14.67 @ 97.67mph
Blue BMW E46 M3 Coupe 14.68 @ 96.79mph
Blue BMW E46 M3 Conv 14.68 @ 96.54mphh
Blue BMW E46 M3 Conv. 14.70 @ 96.86mph
Silver BMW E46 M3 14.72 @ 97.46mph
Silver BMW E39 M5 14.73 @ 97.30mph
Blue BMW E46 M3 Coupe 14.75 @ 97.55mph
Blue BMW E46 M3 Conv 14.76 @ 97.10mph
Black Audi S4 V8 14.76 @ 92.81mph
Blue Audi S4 14.78 @ 95.26mph
VW Silver Golf 14.82 @ 90.64mph
Silver Audi S6 14.89 @ 98.95mph
Silver Mercedes AMG C32 Sedan 14.90 @ 97.73mph
Blue BMW E46 M3 (Active AW) 14.96 @ 102.32mph
Blue Audi S4 14.96 @ 92.22mph
Blue BMW E46 M3 Conv. 14.97 @ 95.16mph
Silver Mercedes AMG C32 Sedan 14.98 @ 97.97mph
Blue BMW E46 M3 14.98 @ 96.94mph
Black Audi S4 V8 14.99 @ 92.75mph
Silver BMW E39 M3 15.04 @ 95.46mph
Red VW Jetta. 15.16 @ 94.66mph
Red VW Jetta 15.36 @ 94.02mph
Silver Audi S4 V8 15.16 @ 94.82mph
Grey Audi S4 V8 15.19 @ 92.31mph
Black VW R32 Supercharged 15.42 @ 92.81mph
Grey Audi S4 V8 15.43 @ 92.94mph
Red VW Jetta 15.53 @ 91.15mph
Black Audi S4 15.51 @ 92.91mph
Silver VW GTI 15.68 @ 92.04mph
Black Audi S4 15.69 @ 93.70mph
White Audi A4 15.74 @ 88.57mph
White VW GTI 15.79 @ 91.36mph
Grey VW Jetta 16.59 @ 84.30mph

Did Mike from Wicked Motorsports run his S4...? Simply?
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      05-16-2007, 04:03 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by S4to335 View Post
Did Mike from Wicked Motorsports run his S4...? Simply?
No he had a turbo go out.
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      05-16-2007, 04:27 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by Terry335 View Post
I don't think the break in makes any difference. Engines break in during the first minuite or two, so special break in periods are sort of an urban myth.

I kind of thought this for a long period of time too.
Some said, break it in hard, some said break it in as the manual states.

I usually followed the manual, thinking, the engineers must know best!
Furthermore, I've never seen conclusive results either way that proves one is better than the other...until German Invasion!

HotRod162's car ran so strong, I had to ask, "how did you break it in"
His response, "hard"
He said he was basically run "1/4 mile runs" with it, testing it with his G-Tech PRO the day or two after hie got the car.
He said he never really intentionally "beat" on the car, but did many hard runs with the car almost right away.

Now, again, his exceptionally strong car might have nothing to do with the fact he did that, but then again, it might.
I know Kujo broke his car in really hard too...we never ran each other stock, but with just an exhaust on his car he pulled 1 CL on me from a 10-90 mph roll. And as you all know, my sedan was a pretty strong running sedan, but nothing like HotRod162's.

So, I figure, what the heck.
I'm not going to abuse the car during break in, but I surely won't shy away from full throttle runs from time to time.
But since it's going to be 100+ degrees in the valley when I get my car, I'm going to avoid high rpm runs during the hot part of the day.
It's a lease anyway, figure it'll be a test to see if my coupe runs significantly better or worse than my sedan after that.
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      05-16-2007, 05:09 PM   #146
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I broke mine in hard for the first 20 miles and then just did canyon runs for a while and then changed the oil at 1500. My car put down good numbers on the dyno. All my other cars were on soft break in and from now on i will only do hard break ins!!!
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      05-16-2007, 05:28 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Driver72 View Post
I'm going to break my coupe in hard.
I broke my sedan in "moderate"...basically drove it like the manual stated I should, but with the occasional 5-6K run and even redline a couple times.
I did a lot of mixed driving breaking in the sedan too.

But, with the coupe, I figure, I've never broke a car in hard, so I'm going to keep the revs up on that car quite a bit more for the first several hundred miles, and even do a couple triple digit (110-120 mph) freeway blasts when the time is right and wide open.
I'm also going to do some canyon runs varying the engine loads quite a bit.

So we'll see what comes of that.

Personally, even if my coupe doesnt' run quite as strong as my sedan, it won't matter. What's a couple hp between cars anyway.

I can't wait till fall when the weather gets cooler, I know we will all be doing quite a bit of meet ups by then.
It'll be fun.
hard break in is the way to go brother!
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