[E92Fan]

Originally Posted by gIzzE

The most impressive player I have seen/heard so far is a a Pioneer LX51 that has been Trichord modded, player £300 and the mods £700, but my god is it something else picture and sound wise.
But you loose your warranty etc.

Don't blame you for going for the better player, if you can afford it why not.
But I thought the Rotel didn't have an option to bypass the Faroudja processing?? If that is the case and has not been sorted then the gains of the 3800 over the 2500 (being the Realta processing) are completely lost.

It may not be the case, but worth looking in to.

Also there is no room correction on it is there?? That would be a must for me on a £4k set up.

Have been reading this thread with interest.... Having previously been in the AV industry as a custom install specialist, I've always had the luxury of a great cinema system, as well as straight 2ch audio.

I've also recently changed to the Rotel 1570 processor for my AV setup - for the money it's a no-brainer processor IMO. The sound quality is very good, discrete channel panning and articulation is exemplary, 2ch performance is much better than anyone would reasonably expect (although that's not important for me in this setup), and whilst the Faroudja processing is not the last word in fidelity, with the right source the results are spectacular. I use a Pioner LX71 bluray player, with the complete Trichord Clock 4 mod and NCPSU...

The processor outputs into a balanced signal converter, which then feeds 6 channels of fully active speakers (Genelec monitors) and a single B&W PV1 subwoofer.

Incidentally, if the Rotel processor is fed a 1080p signal from the player (which I believe the Denon 3800 can provide) then the HDMI signal reverts to a full pass-through without going via the internal Faroudja processor. For all other signals, the Faroudja plays its part

[gIzzE]

Originally Posted by E92Fan

Incidentally, if the Rotel processor is fed a 1080p signal from the player (which I believe the Denon 3800 can provide) then the HDMI signal reverts to a full pass-through without going via the internal Faroudja processor. For all other signals, the Faroudja plays its part

Now that is the important bit, there is now a through mode??

That was missing from the early processors and many have said it has not been implicated still. So nice to hear it has.

That changes things completely and I would consider the Rotel myself if that was the case, the guy who I have/had bought the Meridian from has changed his mind and decided he is going to keep it and add the hdmi input box.
So need to have a rethink, the only reason I had written it off was the lack of pass through.

[E92Fan]

Yes, the pass through works on 1080p mode only. Makes a big difference to the suitability of the Rotel unit. You can also consider the Marantz AV8003 processor, which seems to be doing very well and uses the scaling chip from Anchor Bay. See here for the link.

I have also been thinking about getting a Themescene HD3000 HDMI box, with uses the Gennum VXP scaling chipset, and bloody marvellous it is too... See here for the link

[gIzzE]

Originally Posted by E92Fan

.....and whilst the Faroudja processing is not the last word in fidelity, with the right source the results are spectacular.


I use a Pioner LX71 bluray player, with the complete Trichord Clock 4 mod and NCPSU...

I love the Faroudja processing, I use to use a Crystalio video processor for SD material, SDI philips 963 and Sky SDI modded too, and the results are still as good as I have ever seen.
Shame the Sky HD box can't be SDI'd as the hdmi output is soft as f**k!!


It is a shame that Pioneer have not sorted out LPCM of DTS HD Master on the LX71 as it would be the perfect base player, the 3800 is great but I would rather a modded LX71.
Do you think it will come??

[gIzzE]

Originally Posted by E92Fan

I have also been thinking about getting a Themescene HD3000 HDMI box, with uses the Gennum VXP scaling chipset, and bloody marvellous it is too... See here for the link

I was using the Crystalio II for a couple of years, which uses the Gennum, also has Faroudja too so you can choose, and it is very impressive.
How much is that Themescene unit??

I have been offered some used Crystallio II's recently at very good prices, considering they were £3500-5000.
I am tempted to put one back in my rack at around £1200, but then you see the litte dvdo edge at £550 and wonder if that would be 90% of the quality for 50% of the price.

[E92Fan]

Originally Posted by gIzzE

I love the Faroudja processing, I use to use a Crystalio video processor for SD material, SDI philips 963 and Sky SDI modded too, and the results are still as good as I have ever seen.
Shame the Sky HD box can't be SDI'd as the hdmi output is soft as fuck!!


It is a shame that Pioneer have not sorted out LPCM of DTS HD Master on the LX71 as it would be the perfect base player, the 3800 is great but I would rather a modded LX71.
Do you think it will come??

I've been told that the next round of firmware updates for the LX51/71 will enable DTS HD Master signal output via LPCM. Was a major oversight by them. I love my modded '71 - it's the absolute best picture & sound I've seen, and for a combined cost that is less than a Denon 3800

[E92Fan]

Originally Posted by gIzzE

I was using the Crystalio II for a couple of years, which uses the Gennum, also has Faroudja too so you can choose, and it is very impressive.
How much is that Themescene unit??

I have been offered some used Crystallio II's recently at very good prices, considering they were £3500-5000.
I am tempted to put one back in my rack at around £1200, but then you see the litte dvdo edge at £550 and wonder if that would be 90% of the quality for 50% of the price.

The Themescene unit is fantastic, and is available for £975 or so...

[medrep]

.........well I never knew there would be such a wealth of info on here! Its more like E90WhatHiFiPost.com

E92FAN, cheers for stepping in with the feedback on the rotel. Gives extra reassurance on my purchase!

Does that mean the Denon 3800 is left to its own devices with regards to BD and SD playback then? And assuming the Rotel will only step in when gaming or inputting sky hd??

Also, what multi remotes do you recommend, coming from an ex av installer!!

A PJ is on the list at some point also, I cant believe how quickly ive gotten use to the 50" plasma, and now want bigger?

Any views on ISF calibration too?

[gIzzE]

ISF is worth doing, the Pioneer 508XD has a very strange gamma curve, coming out of the bottom end it crushes black detail slightly, this gives very inky looking blacks but you do loose out on detail in he shadows, it can be tweaked considerably.


It is now well accepted that the pioneer does this and all the calibrators will bring black low level detail.


Makes sure you get someone that really knows their stuff, many use a coloromiter that can't even read below 20ire properly.

[gIzzE]

Originally Posted by medrep

Does that mean the Denon 3800 is left to its own devices with regards to BD and SD playback then? And assuming the Rotel will only step in when gaming or inputting sky hd??

Yeah it does.

Even in pass through there will still be some processing going on, but it won't be scaling twice which is what can happen even when inputting a 1080 source, cause two devices can have different timings. But the processing will only be things like black and white levels, sharpness etc. etc.

[E92Fan]

Originally Posted by medrep

Does that mean the Denon 3800 is left to its own devices with regards to BD and SD playback then? And assuming the Rotel will only step in when gaming or inputting sky hd??

Also, what multi remotes do you recommend, coming from an ex av installer!!

A PJ is on the list at some point also, I cant believe how quickly ive gotten use to the 50" plasma, and now want bigger?

Any views on ISF calibration too?

Well, you have a choice - you can use the inbuilt scaler in the Denon to do the upscaling for you to 1080p (I'm assuming that's the resolution you want to use) and then pass that through the Rotel. Or you can output the native resolution of the source disc into the Rotel and use the Rotel's inbuilt scaler to do the processing. Effectively, you can do a comparison between the two and decide which processor gives the best quality. Obviously, this is only true for DVD/Bluray at 1080p.

For the other sources (Sky, Playstation etc etc), the Rotel handles the upscaling for you.


With regards to multi-remotes, there's a huge amount to choose from, depending on your budget. For a reasonably priced option, the range of Philips Pronto remotes are versatile, though not necessarily that fully-featured with the basic models in terms of being install friendly with RS232 ports and things like that (although I doubt you need that sort of complexity). The Pronto TSU9600 and TSU9800 are very very good as you would expect being the high end models. Click here for the link to the TSU9800.

For the really big stuff, you need to look at the likes of Crestron (my personal favourite - click here for the link) or AMX (see here). However, the last two will cost mega bucks, and I seriously doubt you need that level of automation.


With regards to ISF, the short answer is yes, it makes a big difference. You get a huge amount more contrast, depth of image, clarity, and purity of colours. However,a s Gizze has already said, getting someone who can do it properly is rare, and there are many inferior services available which are just a waste of money. ISF calibration can be very costly, and there's a much cheaper way of getting 95% of the quality, for much less cost. You need to invest in something called a SpyderTV from ColorVision (click here for link). It is a domestic screen calibration device specifically for front projectors (LCD and DLP), plasmas and LCD TVs, and uses a colorimeter that scientifically measures contrast, brightness, colour, tint, and colour temperature presets on your TV and helps you make the necessary adjustments to dramatically improve the picture quality. You hook it up to the laptop via USB and you use the supplied test DVD to calibrate your screen. It costs £118 from amazon.co.uk (click here for link) and obviously has the benefit that you can recalibrate your screen every few months without calling in for ISF calibration!

[E92Fan]

Originally Posted by gIzzE

Yeah it does.

Even in pass through there will still be some processing going on, but it won't be scaling twice which is what can happen even when inputting a 1080 source, cause two devices can have different timings. But the processing will only be things like black and white levels, sharpness etc. etc.

Exactly And the Faroudja processing is very good at maximising sharpness and colour purity through the chain...

[gIzzE]

One thing to bare in mind here.

Your display is not 1080p.

That means that whatever you feed it, you will be scaling again in the TV.
The real benifit of the Faroudja in the Rotel or the Realta in the Denon is that you use them and bypass the cheap scaling in the TV.

I actually found that the Pioneer looked better with the source supplying its native resolution and that was with the Crystalio video processor, that was when I sold it.
With the 1080p panels you turn off the screens cheap processing and let the scaler do the work.


So, if you are buying these toys you really need to look at spending money on a Pioneer 5090 next.

[E92Fan]

Originally Posted by gIzzE

One thing to bare in mind here.

Your display is not 1080p.

That means that whatever you feed it, you will be scaling again in the TV.
The real benifit of the Faroudja in the Rotel or the Realta in the Denon is that you use them and bypass the cheap scaling in the TV.

I actually found that the Pioneer looked better with the source supplying its native resolution and that was with the Crystalio video processor, that was when I sold it.
With the 1080p panels you turn off the screens cheap processing and let the scaler do the work.


So, if you are buying these toys you really need to look at spending money on a Pioneer 5090 next.

I didn't realise he had a 5080 panel - too true, it's not 1080p. That poses a question then - should he use the scaler in the Denon to upscale to 1080p, pass through the Rotel, then let the screen descale down to it's internal resolution?? Or should he let the Denon output a native signal into the Rotel, for the Rotel to upscale to the correct resolution for the Pioneer ??? That way, there's one less conversion (the downsampling in the screen itself)...

EDIT - just realised that that relies on the Rotel to be able to output the correct resolution - what is the resolution of the 5080 panel??? I'll see if the Rotel supports it...

[gIzzE]

I doubt it will as the screen is 1366x768 and it can only take that at 60hz on the PC input.

And there is nothing worse than 50-60hz conversion!! Judder city.

[E92Fan]

Originally Posted by gIzzE

I doubt it will as the screen is 1366x768 and it can only take that at 60hz on the PC input.

And there is nothing worse than 50-60hz conversion!! Judder city.

Too true. The Rotel doesn't support a 1366x768 output - he'd need something like that Themescene HD3000 unit....

[gIzzE]

But the screen can't take that resolution at 50hz either so no point really.

Time to upgrade the screen.

[E92Fan]

Originally Posted by gIzzE

But the screen can't take that resolution at 50hz either so no point really.

Time to upgrade the screen.

It's fun spending other people's money!

[medrep]

Guys, great advice!

Just an error on my behalf, I now have the pioneer 5090. I stated the 508xd initially by mistake, as that is what I first had. I bought the 508xd brand new, and within a few weeks a pixel died, but instead of going black, it began illuminating, bluish white etc etc? Pioneer wouldnt replace the screen, I was pissed to say the least

As a gesture of good will and the ball ache I had endured for almost 8 weeks of emails, chasing phonecalls and engineer visits, audio excellence gave me a brand new 5090 model FOC!

Back to ISF, I take it then that calling a random ISF company may not be the way forward? I have glanced at the spyder option, but it looked a little intimidating, technically speaking? I would be happy to give it a crack if you think this would be money well spent? I may even enjoy it

Its late now, and the miswah is getting pissy cos ive been on the laptop for days, she thinks im a geek and probably having an affair............

Ill take a closer look into your recommendations tomorrow when I get chance.

Thanks again

[E92Fan]

Originally Posted by medrep

Guys, great advice!

Just an error on my behalf, I now have the pioneer 5090. I stated the 508xd initially by mistake, as that is what I first had. I bought the 508xd brand new, and within a few weeks a pixel died, but instead of going black, it began illuminating, bluish white etc etc? Pioneer wouldnt replace the screen, I was pissed to say the least

As a gesture of good will and the ball ache I had endured for almost 8 weeks of emails, chasing phonecalls and engineer visits, audio excellence gave me a brand new 5090 model FOC!

Back to ISF, I take it then that calling a random ISF company may not be the way forward? I have glanced at the spyder option, but it looked a little intimidating, technically speaking? I would be happy to give it a crack if you think this would be money well spent? I may even enjoy it

Its late now, and the miswah is getting pissy cos ive been on the laptop for days, she thinks im a geek and probably having an affair............

Ill take a closer look into your recommendations tomorrow when I get chance.

Thanks again

It's great you have a 5090 !! That DOES support 1080p natively, so you'll have a fantastic picture. Get the SpyderTV - it does seem intimidating, but it's extremely easy to use as most of the calibration bits are automated on the computer. All you have to do is follow the onscreen instructions...

[gIzzE]

Absolutely!!



Well the amp I was meant to be buying has now fallen through as well!!
Well almost, it was on ebay, I agreed a price and the seller just emailed me to tell me that he went to close the auction and a Dutch buyer has used the BUY IT NOW!
Gutted.
He is going to email the buyer and explain it is collection only, it weighs 50kilos, and hopefully he will pull out and I will get it again.

So I am back to the drawing board if not.

Keep trying to buy the Classé back of the guy who bought it from me, it doesn't have a 12v trigger so I am trying to tempt him into one that does, as he always turns it off. I always leave it on, it may cost £13 a month just in standby, but god does it sound good when warmed up.

[gIzzE]

Originally Posted by E92Fan

It's great you have a 5090 !! That DOES support 1080p natively, so you'll have a fantastic picture. Get the SpyderTV - it does seem intimidating, but it's extremely easy to use as most of the calibration bits are automated on the computer. All you have to do is follow the onscreen instructions...

Yeah great new about the 5090.



Agreed on the Spyder, even if you just adjust 30ire and 80ire to get that to a perfect 6500k you will have great results colour wise.
Plus you can set the gamma and black and white levels right.
For £120 it is a no brainer.